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### Author Topic: Double Pendulum Power  (Read 63055 times)

#### LibreEnergia

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 332
##### Re: Double Pendulum Power
« Reply #75 on: November 01, 2013, 09:07:58 PM »

I have another analogy for you. Think of it as an high-frequency, high voltage(acceleration), low current(velocity) circuit 90 degrees out of phase. If you put a resistive load on it you will not get much heat because P=i^2 * R. It's the same with kinetic energy turning into friction heat.

However if you put an inductive load it should be different because P=L * i * i', where i' = di/dt, is and analogy to acceleration. This is why I expect high-voltage AC-output from a generator with an oscillating input torque.

Ok then, I suggest you try it experimentally and report back. I'd recommend using a cheap digital multi-meter to measure the output power though. It will increase your chances of an over unity result many times over

#### Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

##### Re: Double Pendulum Power
« Reply #75 on: November 01, 2013, 09:07:58 PM »

#### TechStuf

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1280
##### Re: Double Pendulum Power
« Reply #76 on: November 01, 2013, 11:29:41 PM »

NYBT.....Interesting work.  You've obviously studied your equations.  It is interesting to note that myriad creatures make use of such efficient motions for every day travel.  The swinging of legs, arms, and wings.  Creation is permeated with endless signposts that point to the "promised land".

It's too bad that the negative nellies don't have what it takes to be granted entry.

There's still hope.  I've seen some miraculous turn arounds.

And arounds.....

TS

P.S.  NYBT, you write as one who has glimpsed the realities of that which you theorize.  I would be surprised, based on what you've shared thus far, if you hadn't seen some very interesting RL results.

#### nybtorque

• Jr. Member
• Posts: 50
##### Re: Double Pendulum Power
« Reply #77 on: November 04, 2013, 07:00:25 AM »
Ok then, I suggest you try it experimentally and report back. I'd recommend using a cheap digital multi-meter to measure the output power though. It will increase your chances of an over unity result many times over

At this point it would be more interesting to discuss the actual analogy and physics... Or should I take it as if we agree on the theory?

#### Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

##### Re: Double Pendulum Power
« Reply #77 on: November 04, 2013, 07:00:25 AM »

#### LibreEnergia

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 332
##### Re: Double Pendulum Power
« Reply #78 on: November 04, 2013, 09:25:36 PM »

At this point it would be more interesting to discuss the actual analogy and physics... Or should I take it as if we agree on the theory?

No.. we don't agree on the theory. Your assertion that you can remove energy from the system and have it continue without stopping is unfounded. The analysis you are using to support your theory is wrong.

You do not model the forces at the pivot between the two pendulums correctly. You ignore a damping force proportional to the power extracted. You cannot extract that power without affecting the transfer of momentum between the two pendulums. For your theory to hold the momentum transfer between the two would be unaffected by the counter torque at the pivot caused by attempting to extract that power.

Also if there is an excess of energy available to be tapped it would already have been manifested. The energy of the combined pendulums would increase spontaneously, but that doesn't happen.

#### nybtorque

• Jr. Member
• Posts: 50
##### Re: Double Pendulum Power
« Reply #79 on: November 05, 2013, 11:02:03 AM »
No.. we don't agree on the theory. Your assertion that you can remove energy from the system and have it continue without stopping is unfounded. The analysis you are using to support your theory is wrong.

You do not model the forces at the pivot between the two pendulums correctly. You ignore a damping force proportional to the power extracted. You cannot extract that power without affecting the transfer of momentum between the two pendulums. For your theory to hold the momentum transfer between the two would be unaffected by the counter torque at the pivot caused by attempting to extract that power.

So, now the damping force is proportional to the power extracted, not proportional to angular velocity? If I try to put myself in your shoes; I guess you still mean the same thing. I.e only kinetic energy can be extracted at the pivot, or am I wrong?

But then again, please explain to me what you do with the oscillations and where the energy needed to counteract the angular acceleration come from when you increase friction at the pivot?  Does it also turn into heat, or do you just ignore it? Actually, to counteract the oscillations you will need to actively apply a momentum of the same magnitude in the opposite direction. Go figure!!!! Friction will simply not do, since it IS a function of VELOCITY and not acceleration.

Quote
Also if there is an excess of energy available to be tapped it would already have been manifested. The energy of the combined pendulums would increase spontaneously, but that doesn't happen.

Well, it both does and does not... The kinetic energy of the system is constant. It can be shown with the model. If you take kinetic energy out of the system for example by friction you need to replace it. No doubt about it.  However, the energy do manifest itself through powerful oscillations. These oscillations are basically "free" as they consists of angular acceleration originated from the centrifugal force, and are considerable in a system rotating at high frequency. These are also part of the model and manifests itself as "potential" energy from the "artificial" gravity created by the rotation.

#### Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

##### Re: Double Pendulum Power
« Reply #79 on: November 05, 2013, 11:02:03 AM »

#### nybtorque

• Jr. Member
• Posts: 50
##### Re: Double Pendulum Power
« Reply #80 on: December 28, 2013, 10:07:49 AM »
No.. we don't agree on the theory. Your assertion that you can remove energy from the system and have it continue without stopping is unfounded. The analysis you are using to support your theory is wrong.

You do not model the forces at the pivot between the two pendulums correctly. You ignore a damping force proportional to the power extracted. You cannot extract that power without affecting the transfer of momentum between the two pendulums. For your theory to hold the momentum transfer between the two would be unaffected by the counter torque at the pivot caused by attempting to extract that power.

Also if there is an excess of energy available to be tapped it would already have been manifested. The energy of the combined pendulums would increase spontaneously, but that doesn't happen.

As of your suggestion I have updated my model with damping forces (ie. torques) like friction and loads. All kind of loads can be simulated at both pivots and have been done so. The results are interesting and show overunity. I've used both a 50Hz model (huge COP) and a Milkovic type pump (COP =7) for my analysis. Please read my report and comment.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/146232946/Double-Pendulum-Power-AC-Power-from-a-Mechanical-Oscillator

NT

#### dieter

• Hero Member
• Posts: 938
##### Re: Double Pendulum Power
« Reply #81 on: February 06, 2014, 05:33:54 PM »
If the brothers wrigth would have tried to convince everybody with theory,  we would still think Aircraft is nonsense. Just go for it! In the worst case it won't work, that wouldn't be a catastrophe.

#### Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

##### Re: Double Pendulum Power
« Reply #81 on: February 06, 2014, 05:33:54 PM »

#### vince

• Full Member
• Posts: 192
##### Re: Double Pendulum Power
« Reply #82 on: April 12, 2014, 10:35:30 PM »
I finally got around to building the double pendulum drive with 2 offset weights. This is a large heavy duty version in which I can try any motor type I want. The motor mount slides from one side to the other so that I can drive the mechanism from any side depending on motor rotation.
This design incorporates all of the details in nybtorques version and the ones that are brought up in the "Motor Generator An Explanation"thread where Woopy did a demonstration.  The offset weights are adjustable for radius and mass. I will be able to change the rotational speed by changing sheaves and/or motor speed.

I am currently building the power take off in which I will be using a one way bearing to harvest ocsilations in the arm and convert them to rotary motion.

I have tested the build with no power take off and find that it is surprisinly smooth during operation. The arm ocsilates violently but is offset by the opposite side so the base does not vibrate and remains very stable. oscilations are fairly small in amplitude but very strong. with my full weight on one arm I can not stop the movement. I have placed a wattmeter on the motor and it does NOT pull more power when fully loaded.

There are several methods that I see of harvesting power from the ocsilations. One possible method is to attach a magnets or an electro magnets to the ends of the arms and fix a coil and core to the base so the magnet vibrates in front of the core and coil.

I will make a video to show the movement. I made a crappy video with my phone camera but it is too grainy and does not show ocsilations of the arm like they actually are.

Vince

#### telecom

• Hero Member
• Posts: 547
##### Re: Double Pendulum Power
« Reply #83 on: April 13, 2014, 12:29:56 AM »
Looks great - please make a video.
Great craftsmanship!
Have you tried measuring the wattage?

#### Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

##### Re: Double Pendulum Power
« Reply #83 on: April 13, 2014, 12:29:56 AM »

#### vince

• Full Member
• Posts: 192
##### Re: Double Pendulum Power
« Reply #84 on: April 13, 2014, 12:48:43 AM »
Thanks.  No, I have not taken any measurements other than a wattmeter to see if power increased under load.  Going to concentrate on power recovery as all the motors I will try will try will have different values.

#### vince

• Full Member
• Posts: 192
##### Re: Double Pendulum Power
« Reply #85 on: April 19, 2014, 02:31:50 AM »

#### Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

##### Re: Double Pendulum Power
« Reply #85 on: April 19, 2014, 02:31:50 AM »

#### telecom

• Hero Member
• Posts: 547
##### Re: Double Pendulum Power
« Reply #86 on: April 19, 2014, 03:48:14 AM »
Looks very impressive, but not sure how to convert the motion of the arm
into the usable power, it seems to be oscillating too fast...

#### vince

• Full Member
• Posts: 192
##### Re: Double Pendulum Power
« Reply #87 on: April 19, 2014, 03:57:49 AM »
Watch the video again. The sprocket in the middle is driven by a one way clutch and rotates like a normal drive. The power and speed are regulated by size of the weights, their radius of swing and speed of the pedulums rotation.

#### telecom

• Hero Member
• Posts: 547
##### Re: Double Pendulum Power
« Reply #88 on: April 19, 2014, 04:20:18 AM »
Understand now - you already installed the power take off with this one way clutch and the sprocket!
This is great - you can try lifting the weight or something with it to figure out the output.

#### aaron5120

• Jr. Member
• Posts: 75
##### Re: Double Pendulum Power
« Reply #89 on: April 21, 2014, 03:50:03 AM »
Watch the video again. The sprocket in the middle is driven by a one way clutch and rotates like a normal drive. The power and speed are regulated by size of the weights, their radius of swing and speed of the pedulums rotation.
@vince,
Your design is very interesting, and please let me draw your attention to a guy from UK, who designed several motor-generators with centrifugal off-set weights. Attached are photos of his prototypes with different physical configurations, but all are based on a similar principle. Decompress the file and you will see the pictures. He is not going to disclose the information which his machines are working on, because this guy had sold out his invention to a British power company.
I hope you will find inspiration to improve your machine when staring at those pictures of this British guy.