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Author Topic: Magnet coil cores, demagnetization power and Lenz delay.  (Read 198439 times)

Offline synchro1

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Re: Magnet coil cores, demagnetization power and Lenz delay.
« Reply #105 on: December 12, 2014, 07:20:11 PM »
Magnetic film viewer: Notice the brightness contrast, especially in the area where the polarity changes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLHl9mnRSbc

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Offline synchro1

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Re: Magnet coil cores, demagnetization power and Lenz delay.
« Reply #106 on: December 13, 2014, 01:08:24 AM »
Once again this video better then any other demonstrates where the magnet backed ferrite core coil needs to be positioned to neutralize the attraction and the repulsión between the rotor and magnet backed ferrite. Both the rotor and backing magnets are in repulsión. However, the rotor magnets are attracted to the ferrite core just like the steel bar in this video. This "Neutral Zone" between the red lines should be sharply contrasted by the magnet viewing film and trigger the pivot sheer magnet positioner from the optical sensors in TK's video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYvP7VuFmNo

The GAP power cycle consists of two phases; One, the coil is polaized in attraction to the rotor magnets along with the neutralized ferrite. At TDC, the field is de-energized and the rotor gets a push from the backing magnets in opposition. The coil core is over the neutral zone at this point. The coil core needs to loose magnetic strength  to "hide" from the rotor to achieve "Lenz Reversal" output propulsión. As the rotor accelerates, the coil's field strength needs to be continually adjusted to prevent cogging and sustain acceleration. The viewer, optical sensors and the push pull pivot sheer magnet positioner should work together enough to keep the fields balanced automatically.

Offline MarkE

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Re: Magnet coil cores, demagnetization power and Lenz delay.
« Reply #107 on: December 13, 2014, 07:44:59 AM »
Once again this video better then any other demonstrates where the magnet backed ferrite core coil needs to be positioned to neutralize the attraction and the repulsión between the rotor and magnet backed ferrite. Both the rotor and backing magnets are in repulsión. However, the rotor magnets are attracted to the ferrite core just like the steel bar in this video. This "Neutral Zone" between the red lines should be sharply contrasted by the magnet viewing film and trigger the pivot sheer magnet positioner from the optical sensors in TK's video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYvP7VuFmNo

The GAP power cycle consists of two phases; One, the coil is polaized in attraction to the rotor magnets along with the neutralized ferrite. At TDC, the field is de-energized and the rotor gets a push from the backing magnets in opposition. The coil core is over the neutral zone at this point. The coil core needs to loose magnetic strength  to "hide" from the rotor to achieve "Lenz Reversal" output propulsión. As the rotor accelerates, the coil's field strength needs to be continually adjusted to prevent cogging and sustain acceleration. The viewer, optical sensors and the push pull pivot sheer magnet positioner should work together enough to keep the fields balanced automatically.
The video demonstrates different configurations of two competing forces.

A "Lenz reversal" would require induced voltage to orient such that if current were to flow the current would reinforce the inducing field.  You have offered no evidence that such a thing occurs.

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Re: Magnet coil cores, demagnetization power and Lenz delay.
« Reply #107 on: December 13, 2014, 07:44:59 AM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Magnet coil cores, demagnetization power and Lenz delay.
« Reply #109 on: December 13, 2014, 10:06:53 AM »

Out of  curiosity, in your opinion, what does it signify when the induced wave, for lack of a better way of  putting it, "morphs" into a perfectly square wave? 




Regards
I'm not following you. In the video above the induced waveform approaches zero as the proper position vertically is approached. The Orbette is a core effect pulse motor, it does not work by electromagnetic attraction or repulsion from the toroidal coils to the rotor magnets. There are two rows of magnets in the rotor; the top row is all N facing out and the bottom row is all S facing out, in vertical pairs. The core effect consists of the applied current to the toroidal coils driving the core material into saturation, or close to it. This actually _reduces_ the attraction of the magnets, both N and S, to the core material. So the timing of the drive pulse is such that it happens just at the point of closest approach of the rotor magnets to the cores. When the current is _off_ the magnets are strongly attracted to the cores and when the current is _on_ they are less attracted-- so the rotor accelerates on the approach and does _not decelerate_ proportionally on the departure from the closest approach. This results in an overall acceleration of the rotor.  The polarity of the magnets or of the current does not matter to the core effect since the field of the electromagnet is almost completely confined within the toroidal core. The core effect motor does not work on electromagnetic attraction or repulsion between the core and the rotor magnets as a normal solenoidal-wound system would. So even when you have the core positioned vertically at the proper "halfway" point between the rows of magnets on the rotor, reducing the "generator effect" from the magnets passing to close to zero, the "core effect" which actually drives the rotor is not reduced.
This type of pulse motor is very subtle in its effects; the "core effect" has even been interpreted as a "free energy" effect (by Steorn).

But I've never seen an induced pulse "morph" suddenly into a square wave. I'd suspect instrument or hookup error if it did, but I'd love to see a system where it happened.

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Re: Magnet coil cores, demagnetization power and Lenz delay.
« Reply #109 on: December 13, 2014, 10:06:53 AM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: Magnet coil cores, demagnetization power and Lenz delay.
« Reply #110 on: December 13, 2014, 11:06:16 AM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90rMGmskqXQ

 :-X
That is a great demonstration of how one can:

Add multiple fields together.
Vary physical position of magnetics to vary the torque / BEMF constants of a motor.  When the BEMF is small, so too is the torque constant.  Hence the very long spin-up time under no load of Steorn's silly WaterWays demonstrations.  BEMF is a factor in Steorn's motors and the Orbette's.  But the coupling is so weak that it can be hard to see.  Steorn misrepresented that the only place that the BEMF would be seen would be in the top of the current trace.  It can also be seen and is more pronounced as I recall in the timing of the coil current build-up prior to coil saturation.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Magnet coil cores, demagnetization power and Lenz delay.
« Reply #111 on: December 13, 2014, 01:49:20 PM »
That is a great demonstration of how one can:

Add multiple fields together.
Vary physical position of magnetics to vary the torque / BEMF constants of a motor.  When the BEMF is small, so too is the torque constant.  Hence the very long spin-up time under no load of Steorn's silly WaterWays demonstrations.  BEMF is a factor in Steorn's motors and the Orbette's.  But the coupling is so weak that it can be hard to see.  Steorn misrepresented that the only place that the BEMF would be seen would be in the top of the current trace.  It can also be seen and is more pronounced as I recall in the timing of the coil current build-up prior to coil saturation.
I think you too may be missing the great difference between a core effect motor and the typical electromagnetic attraction or repulsion of an ordinary pulse or commutated or even a brushless synchronous motor. The generator effect is decoupled from the drive effect. The magnet passage may even contribute to the saturation of the core, lessening the current that needs to be applied to drive the core through the critical region of the B-H hysteresis loop.

There was much in the Steorn story that actually turned out to be true. Even though my Orbette 2.0 used mechanical bearings rather than the magnetic suspension of the Steorn motors, I was able to build in adjustability that they did not, and so I was able to achieve much better acceleration than they could, as well as getting better cancellation of the generator effect. The Orbette in the video outperforms the Steorn motor by a fair margin in terms of acceleration, and from what I could see from their scopeshots, also in electrical power vs. mechanical power. (I know the mechanical power dissipation of my rotor very precisely at any given rpm, thanks to a precise knowledge of the MoI and about a mile of chart-recorder paper and a great USDigital DAC system with a 4000 line rotary encoder monitoring rotor speed.)

I tried a dozen different toroid materials and many winding combinations, and I even went so far as to do quantitative measurements relating the applied current to the attractive force/distance characteristic of a probe magnet, using a digital force gauge and a micrometer-adjustable test fixture. All that data is still on a computer in Canada, probably, but I may be able to find some of the graphs if I look hard enough. The generator effect can be practically eliminated, as I showed for one coil in the video, but the attraction of the rotor magnets to the cores is not affected very much at all by the slight changes in vertical positioning needed. The coils are actually _off_ as the rotor magnets approach the nearest point, and since the coil's position is optimized there is very little induced voltage as the magnets approach. The cores feel the field but the windings don't. Then at the instant of closest approach the current is turned on to the coils. The external field of the magnets as they approach have already driven the core up near the "elbow" of the hysteresis loop and the slight application of current then pushes the core into full or nearly full saturation, at which point the attractive force is reduced, by enough of an amount that the "fleeing" magnets are not retarded nearly as much as they were pulled in during the approach. Normally of course these two forces would be approximately equal, if the cores were not energized, even with them in the optimum position for cancellation of the generator effect. The result is the "slow in, fast out" or rather pulled in hard and pulled back less hard, that drives the motor. It's weird to drive a motor by lessening the attraction on the way out, almost as if you change the core from "iron" to "wood" at the instant of the magnet's closest approach.

Of course the effect is not that radical, it only amounts to a few percentage points of difference in the forces, but this is enough to produce surprisingly strong accelerations, with the right "squareloop" materials for the core, and careful attention to winding and wire routing to  minimize leakage and fringing fields from the toroidal coils.

You may recall that Steorn's toroids in the "plinth" Orbos were mounted face-on to the rotor. I believe this was a mistake on their part; you can see that mine are mounted edge-on, which works better, because with the face-on mounting there is a virtual "hole in the donut" that causes a mechanical loss right at the point of closest approach. With the face on coils there are actually two "valleys" and a "hill" between them at the critical moment and this wastes some of the mechanical power. The edge on configuration that I used makes it easier to null the generator voltage, it eliminates the odd shape of the force-position curve caused by the donut hole, and provides a smoother "more pull in" and "less pull out" force profile from the rotor magnets acting on the core.

Core effect motors are a neglected area of research I think. They are really remarkable. I was also able to get fairly radical gains in performance, using ferrite "beads" that are actually cylinders, by winding them toroidally, mounting them "corner-on" to the rotor, and biasing the far end with little strong magnets to "presaturate" the cheap already low permeability of these beads. Just as synchro is trying to describe above but without really understanding. He seems to think that the magnets work by repelling or attracting the rotor to "help" the pulsed coils do their work. But in a core effect motor they work differently, by moving the saturation level of the cores so that it takes less current to fully saturate them.

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Re: Magnet coil cores, demagnetization power and Lenz delay.
« Reply #111 on: December 13, 2014, 01:49:20 PM »
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Offline MarkE

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Re: Magnet coil cores, demagnetization power and Lenz delay.
« Reply #112 on: December 13, 2014, 02:20:29 PM »
I think you too may be missing the great difference between a core effect motor and the typical electromagnetic attraction or repulsion of an ordinary pulse or commutated or even a brushless synchronous motor. The generator effect is decoupled from the drive effect. The magnet passage may even contribute to the saturation of the core, lessening the current that needs to be applied to drive the core through the critical region of the B-H hysteresis loop.
I am pretty sure that I understand the operation of these devices and the key role that saturating the core plays.  The saturation decouples by factors of 100's or even 1000's to 1 the motor K before the magnetics saturate.  That's why the voltage across and the current through the coils is so stable:  saturation drives the K to next to nothing.  But before the coils saturate, while current is building up and after the pulse ends and the current decays the inductors return to their linear regions and the BEMF effect of the moving magnets can be seen in the oscilloscope rising and falling current waveforms.
Quote

There was much in the Steorn story that actually turned out to be true. Even though my Orbette 2.0 used mechanical bearings rather than the magnetic suspension of the Steorn motors, I was able to build in adjustability that they did not, and so I was able to achieve much better acceleration than they could, as well as getting better cancellation of the generator effect. The Orbette in the video outperforms the Steorn motor by a fair margin in terms of acceleration, and from what I could see from their scopeshots, also in electrical power vs. mechanical power. (I know the mechanical power dissipation of my rotor very precisely at any given rpm, thanks to a precise knowledge of the MoI and about a mile of chart-recorder paper and a great USDigital DAC system with a 4000 line rotary encoder monitoring rotor speed.)
Your work was always vastly superior to Steorn's.
Quote

I tried a dozen different toroid materials and many winding combinations, and I even went so far as to do quantitative measurements relating the applied current to the attractive force/distance characteristic of a probe magnet, using a digital force gauge and a micrometer-adjustable test fixture. All that data is still on a computer in Canada, probably, but I may be able to find some of the graphs if I look hard enough. The generator effect can be practically eliminated, as I showed for one coil in the video, but the attraction of the rotor magnets to the cores is not affected very much at all by the slight changes in vertical positioning needed. The coils are actually _off_ as the rotor magnets approach the nearest point, and since the coil's position is optimized there is very little induced voltage as the magnets approach. The cores feel the field but the windings don't. Then at the instant of closest approach the current is turned on to the coils. The external field of the magnets as they approach have already driven the core up near the "elbow" of the hysteresis loop and the slight application of current then pushes the core into full or nearly full saturation, at which point the attractive force is reduced, by enough of an amount that the "fleeing" magnets are not retarded nearly as much as they were pulled in during the approach. Normally of course these two forces would be approximately equal, if the cores were not energized, even with them in the optimum position for cancellation of the generator effect. The result is the "slow in, fast out" or rather pulled in hard and pulled back less hard, that drives the motor. It's weird to drive a motor by lessening the attraction on the way out, almost as if you change the core from "iron" to "wood" at the instant of the magnet's closest approach.
It is out of the ordinary but all the ordinary physics still apply.  The coil orientation would in a perfect world yield zero modulation of the top of the waveform.  The energy transfer that is necessary to the operation of the device as a motor is all in those rising and falling edges.  Altering the core bias with the rotor magnets changes those edges.
Quote

Of course the effect is not that radical, it only amounts to a few percentage points of difference in the forces, but this is enough to produce surprisingly strong accelerations, with the right "squareloop" materials for the core, and careful attention to winding and wire routing to  minimize leakage and fringing fields from the toroidal coils.
The squarer, the better for these types of machines.
Quote

You may recall that Steorn's toroids in the "plinth" Orbos were mounted face-on to the rotor. I believe this was a mistake on their part; you can see that mine are mounted edge-on, which works better, because with the face-on mounting there is a virtual "hole in the donut" that causes a mechanical loss right at the point of closest approach. With the face on coils there are actually two "valleys" and a "hill" between them at the critical moment and this wastes some of the mechanical power. The edge on configuration that I used makes it easier to null the generator voltage, it eliminates the odd shape of the force-position curve caused by the donut hole, and provides a smoother "more pull in" and "less pull out" force profile from the rotor magnets acting on the core.
You found that because you possess orders of magnitude better understanding of physics than the saps at Steorn.
Quote

Core effect motors are a neglected area of research I think. They are really remarkable. I was also able to get fairly radical gains in performance, using ferrite "beads" that are actually cylinders, by winding them toroidally, mounting them "corner-on" to the rotor, and biasing the far end with little strong magnets to "presaturate" the cheap already low permeability of these beads. Just as synchro is trying to describe above but without really understanding. He seems to think that the magnets work by repelling or attracting the rotor to "help" the pulsed coils do their work. But in a core effect motor they work differently, by moving the saturation level of the cores so that it takes less current to fully saturate them.
What you've got is a mechanical version of a magnetic amplifier.  The non-linear region headed into saturation provides signal gain needed to make the approaching and departing transactions asymmetric with respect to force versus position.  That in turn allows the external power source to transfer energy that accelerates the rotor.  I think that small diameter hollow cylinders of very square magnetic material would be ideal.

Offline synchro1

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Re: Magnet coil cores, demagnetization power and Lenz delay.
« Reply #113 on: December 13, 2014, 09:28:20 PM »
Here's a better example of the shorted generator coil positioning effect:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYUTFi8Zdt4

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Re: Magnet coil cores, demagnetization power and Lenz delay.
« Reply #113 on: December 13, 2014, 09:28:20 PM »
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Offline synchro1

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Re: Magnet coil cores, demagnetization power and Lenz delay.
« Reply #114 on: December 13, 2014, 11:50:35 PM »
The video demonstrates different configurations of two competing forces.

A "Lenz reversal" would require induced voltage to orient such that if current were to flow the current would reinforce the inducing field.  You have offered no evidence that such a thing occurs.

@MarkE,

The important point in this video is how the balance between attraction and repulsión is effected by distance positioning. Both Konzen and kEhYo orient their monopole rotor magnets facing North pole out; Both their coils have the backing magnets in opposition behind ferrite cores. The video demonstrates that magnet stacks in repulsión share attraction to a steel magnetic keeper when pushed toward each other at a distance just to the inside of a "Neutral Zone" of perhaps 1/16 of an inch in width. kEhYo's GAP power coil is in the "Repulsión Zone". Konzen's shorted coil sweet spot is closer to the rotor where attraction to the ferrite balances the repulsión to his backing magnets. The identical coil, disconnected from the input source, shorted and repositioned closer to the rotor now causes the rotor to speed up solely from forces inside the shorted generator coil alone! This "Neutral Zone" should appear as a bright ridge though a magna-viewer film, contrasted by dark areas on either side. A piezo positioning chip would offer another alternative for automatically locating the shorted coil in the acceleration zone demonstrated by Doug Konzen, who uses a risky hands on approach.

Offline MarkE

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Re: Magnet coil cores, demagnetization power and Lenz delay.
« Reply #115 on: December 14, 2014, 12:05:00 AM »
Synchro1 the video demonstrates:

Any magnet of any orientation attracts / is attracted to a soft magnetic piece.   
Magnet poles of the same polarity repel.
Magnet force is very nonlinear.
Forces add.

None of these facts contribute to the wrong idea that there is a "delayed Lenz effect".  And none of these facts contribute to the wrong idea that by arranging magnets and / or soft magnetic pieces that there is extra energy to be had.

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Re: Magnet coil cores, demagnetization power and Lenz delay.
« Reply #115 on: December 14, 2014, 12:05:00 AM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: Magnet coil cores, demagnetization power and Lenz delay.
« Reply #116 on: December 14, 2014, 01:35:04 AM »
There is always a delay in the lenze force,as a magnetic field dose have a speed limit-although the delay would be that small,it is almost unmeasurable.This also means that there is also the same delay time in the motor/generator effect,so the net result remains at 0.You can however use the lenz force to increase motor torque and generator output.

Motors and generators are simply being designed wrong.
It is extreemly simple to design a motor that increases with torque when a load is applied to the generator coil's,and reducing the P/in to the motor at the same time-->this i have shown many times. ;)

Offline synchro1

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Re: Magnet coil cores, demagnetization power and Lenz delay.
« Reply #117 on: December 14, 2014, 02:34:41 AM »
@Tinman,

You contradict youself. Tk maintains the rotor will slow down and stop. You people contnually ignore the fact that Konzen's rotor is speeding up. I've been describing the run away effect for years over countless threads. You people act like I'm a trying to perpetrate a hoax. Why don't you try it?

Offline synchro1

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Re: Magnet coil cores, demagnetization power and Lenz delay.
« Reply #118 on: December 14, 2014, 02:48:35 AM »
Synchro1 the video demonstrates:

Any magnet of any orientation attracts / is attracted to a soft magnetic piece.   
Magnet poles of the same polarity repel.
Magnet force is very nonlinear.
Forces add.

None of these facts contribute to the wrong idea that there is a "delayed Lenz effect".  And none of these facts contribute to the wrong idea that by arranging magnets and / or soft magnetic pieces that there is extra energy to be had.

What's that supposed to mean that "Lenz Delay Effect" is a wrong idea? Did you watch the Doug Konzen coil shorting video? How do you explain the rotor accleration coupled with the drop in input that Doug demonstrates?

Offline MarkE

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Re: Magnet coil cores, demagnetization power and Lenz delay.
« Reply #119 on: December 14, 2014, 03:03:01 AM »
What's that supposed to mean that "Lenz Delay Effect" is a wrong idea? Did you watch the Doug Konzen coil shorting video? How do you explain the rotor accleration coupled with the drop in input that Doug demonstrates?
It is a wrong idea because:

1) Lenz's Law states only the direction of induced currents. 
2) The induced currents have not been showed to be delayed.  It is in fact the immediate induction of eddy currents that delays build-up of net magnetic fields and resulting force.

 

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