Author Topic: Magnet coil cores, demagnetization power and Lenz delay. (Read 243302 times)

MarkE · « **Reply #75 on:** December 02, 2014, 12:32:04 AM »

Quote from: synchro1 on December 01, 2014, 10:27:25 PM

More rotor magnets will help lower the "Lenz Delay" threshold RPM and less magnets will increase the demagnetization interval. Consider this; Everyone has seen demonstrations of rotor speed up under load. Once the multi maget rotor is spinning fast enough, if we pull the DPDT Reed Relay back away from the rotor in the normally closed position open to the storage capacitor, and adjust the tiny positioner coil field strenght on the back of the core magnets to the Neutral Zone and experience rotor speed up, how can it not be a self runner at that point? Think about it. I've been perversly ridiculed as a cumpulsive lier and psychotic, but I moved the rotor in the sphere spinner spiral away from the power coil. How can the 'Lenz Propulsion" overcome the drag of a prime mover like a DC motor or anything. It's not difficult to achieve rotor speed up, if it's a free wheeling rotor how can it not be powering itself if the rotor's accelerating with zero input?

Well a self-runner should be self-evident shouldn't it? It should just keep going and going and going without external power input.

It is very easy to get fooled by some of these effects. A number of Thane Heins demonstrations show what happens when one is able to manipulate the BEMF constant AKA motor constant of a motor while it is being driven by a constant voltage source. A DC motor will under light or no load conditions pretty much spin up to a speed where the product of the motor speed and the BEMF constant match the supply voltage. So, if we reduce the BEMF constant, the motor spins faster. Now think about what that means. It means that the generator analog of the motor is producing a voltage just a little bit less than the supply voltage, and the difference voltage applied across the winding resistance is developing just enough current to result in enough torque to overcome the motor losses. Because the generator voltage is less than the supply, the instant that we try to close the loop, the motor will have less voltage driving it, the current will drop, the losses will decelerate the motor and the generator voltage will further drop in a spiral down to zero speed.

If the motor really started self-sustaining, then two things would happen: The motor current would go negative and the motor would speed up until either a new higher speed equilibrium occurs as the battery or power supply loads the motor or the motor just accelerates to destruction.

synchro1 · « **Reply #76 on:** December 02, 2014, 03:07:39 AM »

Quote from: MarkE on December 02, 2014, 12:32:04 AM

Well a self-runner should be self-evident shouldn't it? It should just keep going and going and going without external power input.

It is very easy to get fooled by some of these effects. A number of Thane Heins demonstrations show what happens when one is able to manipulate the BEMF constant AKA motor constant of a motor while it is being driven by a constant voltage source. A DC motor will under light or no load conditions pretty much spin up to a speed where the product of the motor speed and the BEMF constant match the supply voltage. So, if we reduce the BEMF constant, the motor spins faster. Now think about what that means. It means that the generator analog of the motor is producing a voltage just a little bit less than the supply voltage, and the difference voltage applied across the winding resistance is developing just enough current to result in enough torque to overcome the motor losses. Because the generator voltage is less than the supply, the instant that we try to close the loop, the motor will have less voltage driving it, the current will drop, the losses will decelerate the motor and the generator voltage will further drop in a spiral down to zero speed.

If the motor really started self-sustaining, then two things would happen: The motor current would go negative and the motor would speed up until either a new higher speed equilibrium occurs as the battery or power supply loads the motor or the motor just accelerates to destruction.

I'm glad you raised that point MarkE. I covered the effect at length on my "Self Accelerating Reed Switch Magnet" thread. Be prepared for a close to traumatic future shock experience. Twinbeard's output core spinners raced to the hypersonic shattering point in only a matter of seconds. My spiral core output spinner is wraped Serial Bifilar and I believe the neo sphere speed stabilizes when the RPM matches the self resonating frequency of the coil. The GAP magnet core coil with the positioner should slow the acceleration simply by turning the positioner all the way up or fixing more back up magnets to the core stack.

The self acceleration effect will be followed by a runaway situation resulting in rotor disintigration. Preparations need to be taken in advance. My sprial coil has a PVC coupling and a wooden box for protection. Everyone should view the PVC coupling I encase the ceramic bearing tube spinner in. I haven't given any thought to a safty housing for this design yet. This is merely a build concept at this time. I'd need to build it myself and experiment with different types of protective housings. The optimal enclousure would surround both the coil and the rotor. The hyper speed up can lead to serious injury or fatality. Exercise extreme caution if you proceed with this kind of experimentation. I can't stress the need sufficiently, because skepticisem leads people into taking chances that should be avoided with proper safty measures. This is no joke folks!

MarkE · « **Reply #77 on:** December 02, 2014, 03:53:32 AM »

Quote from: synchro1 on December 02, 2014, 03:07:39 AM

I'm glad you raised that point MarkE. I covered the effect at length on my "Self Accelerating Reed Switch Magnet" thread. Be prepared for a close to traumatic future shock experience. Twinbeard's output core spinners raced to the hypersonic shattering point in only a matter of seconds. My spiral core output spinner is wraped Serial Bifilar and I believe the neo sphere speed stabilizes when the RPM matches the self resonating frequency of the coil. The GAP magnet core coil with the positioner should slow the acceleration simply by turning the positioner all the way up or fixing more back up magnets to the core stack.

The self acceleration effect will be followed by a runaway situation resulting in rotor disintigration. Preparations need to be taken in advance. My sprial coil has a PVC coupling and a wooden box for protection. Everyone should view the PVC coupling I encase the ceramic bearing tube spinner in. I haven't given any thought to a safty housing for this design yet. This is merely a build concept at this time. I'd need to build it myself and experiment with different types of protective housings. The optimal enclousure would surround both the coil and the rotor. The hyper speed up can lead to serious injury or fatality. Exercise extreme caution if you proceed with this kind of experimentation. I can't stress the need sufficiently, because skepticisem leads people into taking chances that should be avoided with proper safty measures. This is no joke folks!

So all you have to do at that point is show that the device is doing that on its own and not with power from the battery or power supply that you have hooked up to it.

synchro1 · « **Reply #78 on:** December 02, 2014, 04:12:45 AM »

@MarkE,

You would accuse me of planting a hidden wireless transmitter or blowing compressed air or something else. You pull that sort of trick on JLN. Plus, I'm not your running dog! You can watch "Piratetwinbeard's" Speed Racer video if you want to witness the effect under test conditions. Milehigh was called an asshole by him for pulling the kind of crap you and TK bore me with. Call Judge Judy!

MarkE · « **Reply #79 on:** December 02, 2014, 04:20:56 AM »

Quote from: synchro1 on December 02, 2014, 04:12:45 AM

@MarkE,

You would accuse me of planting a hidden wireless transmitter or blowing compressed air or something else. You pull that sort of trick on JLN. Plus, I'm not you're running dog!

Synchro1 reasonable people develop test protocols and perform replications to get to the bottom of extraordinary claims. Nothing forces you to cooperate.

synchro1 · « **Reply #80 on:** December 02, 2014, 04:25:42 AM »

Quote from: MarkE on December 02, 2014, 04:20:56 AM

Synchro1 reasonable people develop test protocols and perform replications to get to the bottom of extraordinary claims. Nothing forces you to cooperate.

Reasonable people don't live on a hammock under a palm tree on the beach in Costa Rica!

MarkE · « **Reply #81 on:** December 02, 2014, 04:31:58 AM »

Quote from: synchro1 on December 02, 2014, 04:25:42 AM

Reasonable people don't live on a hammock under a palm tree on the beach in Costa Rica!

Bob Vesco may have said that.

TinselKoala · « **Reply #82 on:** December 02, 2014, 05:08:00 AM »

He knows it cannot accelerate unless it is being provided with power from the outside, or is running on stored energy eg from a capacitor, which will be running down. That's why whenever you or I suggest an actual demonstration, he flails and bails.

synchro1 · « **Reply #83 on:** December 02, 2014, 05:31:24 AM »

Quote from: TinselKoala on December 02, 2014, 05:08:00 AM

He knows it cannot accelerate unless it is being provided with power from the outside, or is running on stored energy eg from a capacitor, which will be running down. That's why whenever you or I suggest an actual demonstration, he flails and bails.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtCN1GWqtqg

Twinbeard's generating 1000 volts from his transformer at .160 amps in his speed racer video from a 1/8th" sphere rotating at 3 million RPM with milliwatts of input from "Lenz Propulsion" in his output coil core resulting from BEMF field distortion feedback. So go solder up another dime store novelty from cost saver junk parts, like your solar bar bird, and keep making cheap wisecracks.

MileHigh · « **Reply #84 on:** December 02, 2014, 07:16:41 AM »

These were my comments about the "three million RPM" clip from a few months ago:

-----------------
Twinbeard:

I looked at your clip again. You measure 20 microseconds between the small spikes. You don't make a single attempt to double-check that measurement. You don't try changing the time base, you don't try changing the trigger level, you don't make any attempt to double check your scope probe connection, you don't try to check if there might be a 20 microsecond clock signal somewhere else in the circuit or perhaps even close to the circuit. You notice (not you personally, I mean the generic "you") that sometimes on the display you see that spikes are completely missing in a regular pattern, like "missing teeth." But if your rotating magnet ball is truly doing one revolution every 20 microseconds that should not be happening. But you don't even question that. If there are missing spikes then something certainly is amiss, but you don't do anything to investigate that mystery.

Then you state that you tweaked the trigger level and you end up with a stable display but there are still two missing spikes! You almost certainly are not looking at the speed of he rotating ball magnet. 3,000,000 RPM is a ridiculous speed for just about any size of rotating magnet but you are seemingly numb and unaware as you correctly crunch the garbage-in-garbage-out numbers.

Then you look at the generator output and you see a waveform that looks like icicles in winter. You don't even make an attempt to reduce your voltage scale, change your time base, adjust your trigger level and get a good waveform triggered from that channel. You are supposed to know ahead of time that the expected waveform is a near-pure sine wave at that alleged frequency. It looks like a compound waveform of some sort, perhaps two separate sine waves added together, with "low" and "high" peaks along with some amplitude modulation as the two sine waves beat with each other. Why is that? You don't even try to figure it out.

Okay so you have a bunch of transformers in the circuit. Perhaps that partially explains the seeming total mess on the output waveform, but you don't care. You put your hand near the multimeter and the current measurement skews. That's not supposed to happen so it almost certainly means that measurement is junk but you don't care. Are there any bandwidth issues with your multimeter when is trying to measure the very high-frequency AC current? I bet that you don't know and you never checked.

To sum it up, your clip is a total disaster. My best guess is that your setup was self-resonating at 50 KHz while a the same time the little ball magnet was turning at high speed, but at a much much lower speed than the ridiculous speed of 3,000,000 RPM.

If the ball was actually turning at 3,000,000 RPM, chances are that within 10 seconds you would smell burning plastic and the thing would spontaneously self-destruct from the heat due to friction.

So your clip leaves a lot to be desired. I am giving you the real deal.
--------------------

Some of Twinbeard's response:

--------------------
Yeah, watch the videos that came after that one. My instrumentation got better as well as the device, and my understanding of the processes evolved. You will find answers to your objections there, because frankly, I have heard all this crap before. Quite a few very intelligent people well versed in the applicable physics have seen the device in person, and examined it. Not one has questioned the frequency of operation, particularly after hearing the air ripping around the rotor, which, alas does not come through in the videos due to ambient noise
--------------------

Synchro1, and others: When you look at a clip you are looking for content and credibility, proper measurements, proper description, and so on. Too many clips are very weak in many areas. If you make a clip and it looks like you are not even trying to get a proper trigger and appropriate time base set up on your scope it's a huge issue.

All that you would have to have done in the Twinbeard clip would have been to attach your scope channel to a sniffer coil and poked around until you got a good looking and credible looking sine wave picked up from the rotating magnetic field of the spinning ball. There is no way that ball was spinning at three million RPM.

I don't understand how you can look at that clip Synchro1 and not see how problematic it is.

MileHigh

TinselKoala · « **Reply #85 on:** December 02, 2014, 08:10:02 AM »

Quote from: synchro1 on December 02, 2014, 05:31:24 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtCN1GWqtqg

Twinbeard's generating 1000 volts from his transformer at .160 amps in his speed racer video from a 1/8th" sphere rotating at 3 million RPM with milliwatts of input from "Lenz Propulsion" in his output coil core resulting from BEMF field distortion feedback. So go solder up another dime store novelty from cost saver junk parts, like your solar bar bird, and keep making cheap wisecracks.

I'm so glad I have your permission to build stuff and show what I build. Meanwhile you just go on building your Perpetual Motion Machine that always stops when the power is removed. Don't bother making proper measurements, they just confuse you --- and refute you.

TinselKoala · « **Reply #86 on:** December 02, 2014, 08:26:12 AM »

@MH: There clearly needs to be a valid measurement of the actual rotation of the sphere. We all (some of us) know how easy it is to have a system response that is some fraction of the stimulating signal, which is why I generally show readings from multiple instruments using different techniques when I'm talking about rotational speed if there is any possibility of doubt. Still, the speed itself is not nearly as important as the FACT that the sphere inevitably slows to a stop once the external power is removed.
I haven't calculated the centrifugal force on a 1/8 inch sphere spinning at 3,000,000 rpm but I'll bet it is pretty large. Is it possible for it to hold together at that speed? I don't know that either. I don't know the details of the sensing system that these claimants use, either. Is there any assurance whatsoever that the sphere isn't producing two spikes per revolution, since it has two magnetic poles passing the sensor? Or is the sensor even independent of the driving frequency? So I can see several possible sources of error in the cited figure. It's possible that the magnet is spinning at some fraction of the driving pulses, and it's possible that the sensor system is "overcounting" the revolutions. Without proper validating measurements of the speed, independent of the drive system, we'll never know. Without a cooperative attitude on the part of the claimant ... what is even the point of speculating? Wishes, horses, beggars, etc. It's clear that anyone can _say_ anything they want to say. Proving it is another story altogether, and that responsibility rests entirely with the claimant. And if the claimant simply doesn't want to, or is afraid to, or just cannot figure out how to... well, that proves some things right there, doesn't it.

Hey Synchro, you are falling behind on your "thumbs down" campaign. I'm making them faster than you can keep up, even when you don't even watch them before you click on your only tool: the downward pointing thumb.

MarkE · « **Reply #87 on:** December 02, 2014, 04:19:24 PM »

Quote from: synchro1 on December 02, 2014, 05:31:24 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vtCN1GWqtqg

Twinbeard's generating 1000 volts from his transformer at .160 amps in his speed racer video from a 1/8th" sphere rotating at 3 million RPM with milliwatts of input from "Lenz Propulsion" in his output coil core resulting from BEMF field distortion feedback. So go solder up another dime store novelty from cost saver junk parts, like your solar bar bird, and keep making cheap wisecracks.

His measurement set-up is deplorable. He has stray RF corrupting his measurements all over the place. The scope does not even appear to be triggered properly.

The 3 million rpm statement is extremely ignorant at best. The ball would be ripped apart at that kind of speed.

GIGO

synchro1 · « **Reply #88 on:** December 02, 2014, 04:26:20 PM »

The issue here is the liklyhood that an experimentor might sustain the risk of serious injury from run away self acceleration. Regardless of wether Twinbeard's scope readings are accurate or not, the obvious feature is that his spinner is accelerating inside the core of his output coil from forces other then the input to his power coil. I described my run away experience with the ceramic bearing spinner with the input amp meter needle "Pegged" solidly at zero.

The current GAP design has the potential to self power and accelerate to the disinigration point and needs a protective hood and a kill switch. I don't want you skeptics to nullify my cautioning. It's not outside the over all world of possibilities that a run away event will occur! I would cover the entire apparatus with a section of clear plexiglass pipe maybe 18 inches in diameter with a clear plexiglass cover glued on with a handle like a cake cover. I would also wire a kill switch between the output coil and capacitor. The positioner potentiometer should be placed outside the hood along with the kill switch and power pot.

MarkE · « **Reply #89 on:** December 02, 2014, 04:50:21 PM »

Quote from: synchro1 on December 02, 2014, 04:26:20 PM

The issue here is the liklyhood that an experimentor might sustain the risk of serious injury from run away self acceleration. Regardless of wether Twinbeard's scope readings are accurate or not, the obvious feature is that his spinner is accelerating inside the core of his output coil from forces other then the input to his power coil. I described my run away experience with the ceramic bearing spinner with the input amp meter needle "Pegged" solidly at zero.

On what basis do you make those claims? Twinbeard's measurements are garbage. Take away those measurements and what do you see? I see a crude motor.

Quote

The current GAP design has the potential to self power and accelerate to the disinigration point and needs a protective hood and a kill switch. I don't want you skeptics to nullify my cautioning. It's not outside the over all world of possibilities that a run away event will occur! I would cover the entire apparatus with a section of clear plexiglass pipe maybe 18 inches in diameter with a clear plexiglass cover glued on with a handle like a cake cover. I would also wire a kill switch between the output coil and capacitor. The positioner potentiometer should be placed outside the hood along with the kill switch and power pot.

well then someone who wants to test the idea should construct a test set-up that has appropriate safety precautions built in. It is not so hard to design an eddy current brake, nor is it so hard to just get some thick plexiglass.

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Author Topic: Magnet coil cores, demagnetization power and Lenz delay. (Read 243302 times)

MarkE

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synchro1

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MarkE

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synchro1

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MarkE

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synchro1

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MarkE

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TinselKoala

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synchro1

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MileHigh

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TinselKoala

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TinselKoala

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MarkE

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synchro1

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MarkE

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