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Author Topic: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap  (Read 178953 times)

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #270 on: July 15, 2013, 12:16:35 PM »
Hi Mags,

Nice coil, do you have an L meter to measure its inductance?

Gyula

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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #271 on: July 15, 2013, 02:09:36 PM »
Pretty!
It sounds like you will have a miniature Newman motor, with all that wire and resistance. How did you count the turns while winding?

Does your wire need to be scraped or does the enamel melt away when soldering the wire?

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #272 on: July 16, 2013, 01:48:35 AM »
Hi Mags,

Nice coil, do you have an L meter to measure its inductance?

Gyula

Got an LCR meter coming, wed or thurs.  ;D Im very interested to find out what the inductance is.  ;D   Can ya tell?  ;D ;D ;D

I had looked at meters of the sort for some time. Some are expensive, some are 'scary' cheap. So I went middle of the road. Gunna wind some coils.  ;D ;D ;D

Mags

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Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #272 on: July 16, 2013, 01:48:35 AM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #273 on: July 16, 2013, 02:13:40 AM »
Pretty!
It sounds like you will have a miniature Newman motor, with all that wire and resistance. How did you count the turns while winding?

Does your wire need to be scraped or does the enamel melt away when soldering the wire?

I was thinking the same. In fact, if you remember zeropoint132, his self running no bearing bedini, it may have worked as shown, like Lasersabers motor, give it a spin, it charges the cap quickly and runs for a while on that. It could look like its self running(in the sense that we think of) but it could be just using tiny amounts of power from the charged cap like LS's motor around 1ua. Zeropoint used 4000 turns bifi, 1 wire 30awg and the other 46awg I believe. All wound on 1 bobbin, it just may have had attributes of LS's  EZ motor.

My laser rpm meter has a count function. Its one of the more common meters out there, just with a Matco Tools name on it. So I used masking tape to hold the 'on' button and put a piece of reflective tape on the chuck of the cordless drill. I just keep 1 of the black spacers in the drill chuck and just pop in the white bobbins so I dont have to mess with the chuck. The reflective tape needs some help sticking to moving things, of which, those are the things we need it to stick to. lol  The Ryobi 18v($69 bucks, nice tool, except wont hold tiny bits) lays down on its side nice with the chuck off the table.

Yes, the wire seems to need something beyond solder to remove the enamel. Im looking for a solvent, one that works quick I hope. Some forums say vinegar, aspirin? Ive got some acetone to try tonight. Got some 2500 sand paper also some 0000 steel wool, just to try some things. I really dont want to bite into the copper much if not at all. If you have any suggestions they would be well appreciated. ;)


Going by the resistance of the coil, it should be around 450ft. Will have to measure 1 foot of this wire to see, but 42awg can range from 1.5 to 1.8ohm per foot. Will measure that in a bit. So 10,000 ft plus with all coils in series.

Mags

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #274 on: July 16, 2013, 12:59:41 PM »

  ;D Im very interested to find out what the inductance is.  ;D   Can ya tell?  ;D ;D ;D


Hi Mags,

Yes, going by the estimated sizes of the bobbin, your coil may have an inductance between 160 mH to 175 mH...   8) :)

your bobbin ID may be 5 to 6 mm,  winding OD may be 16-17 mm, winding length may be 3 to 3.5 mm, you wound 3300 turns, are the bobbin sizes in the 'ballpark'?

Gyula

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Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #274 on: July 16, 2013, 12:59:41 PM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #275 on: July 17, 2013, 02:51:23 AM »
Hi Mags,

Yes, going by the estimated sizes of the bobbin, your coil may have an inductance between 160 mH to 175 mH...   8) :)

your bobbin ID may be 5 to 6 mm,  winding OD may be 16-17 mm, winding length may be 3 to 3.5 mm, you wound 3300 turns, are the bobbin sizes in the 'ballpark'?

Gyula

Hey Gyula

The ID is  3.4mm  OD is 17.6mm  depth is 2.7mm

So maybe about 4H with all coils in series I believe. Will be interesting to see what measurements will show. The bifi coils most likely wont read correctly for inductance.

Will see.  Thanks ;)

Mags

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #276 on: July 17, 2013, 02:56:55 AM »
Sacrificed 1 clip to get the measurement. lol  These things aint cheap on the street! ;D Caliper would not fit in the gap to measure ID.  I have a lot of extras. ;D

Had seen some nuce clips today that had good depth. They were on a door panel. I cant have those. :'( So many different kinds.

Mags

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Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #276 on: July 17, 2013, 02:56:55 AM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #277 on: July 17, 2013, 11:22:23 AM »
Hey Gyula

The ID is  3.4mm  OD is 17.6mm  depth is 2.7mm

So maybe about 4H with all coils in series I believe. Will be interesting to see what measurements will show. The bifi coils most likely wont read correctly for inductance.

Will see.  Thanks ;)

Mags

Hi Mags,

Well, with those bobbin sizes the inductance calculates to about 140 mH (138.7 mH).  This is the calculator I have used:
http://www.pronine.ca/multind.htm    It asks for an inductance value from the user in advance, so some playing with the numbers is needed.
If we consider the number of turns is 3300 and wire gauge #42 as dependable data, together with the measured bobbin ID 3.4 mm and depth (i.e coil length l) 2.7 mm, then you have to enter 138.7 mH for L to arrive at the 3300 turns.  Then the coil OD comes out as 15.77 mm, wire length as 323.44 feet and DC resistance as 536.58 Ohm.

Regarding your coming L meter, the built-in measuring frequency hopefully will be low (less than 100-200 Hz) because a coil may manifest different L values at different frequencies, normally L decreases with increasing frequency, just due to self capacitance and L disappears at a frequency high enough to give a first resonance with self capacitance.  This is a good link to measure self capacitance of coils:  http://www3.telus.net/chemelec/Calculators/Interwire-Coil-Capacitance-Calc.htm  may come as helpful for your bifilar coils too.

Sorry to hear you had to sacrifice a bobbin to get to the mechanical sizes, hopefully this has been the biggest loss in this setup. :D

Gyula

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #278 on: July 18, 2013, 01:55:20 AM »
Hi Mags,

Well, with those bobbin sizes the inductance calculates to about 140 mH (138.7 mH).  This is the calculator I have used:
http://www.pronine.ca/multind.htm    It asks for an inductance value from the user in advance, so some playing with the numbers is needed.
If we consider the number of turns is 3300 and wire gauge #42 as dependable data, together with the measured bobbin ID 3.4 mm and depth (i.e coil length l) 2.7 mm, then you have to enter 138.7 mH for L to arrive at the 3300 turns.  Then the coil OD comes out as 15.77 mm, wire length as 323.44 feet and DC resistance as 536.58 Ohm.

Regarding your coming L meter, the built-in measuring frequency hopefully will be low (less than 100-200 Hz) because a coil may manifest different L values at different frequencies, normally L decreases with increasing frequency, just due to self capacitance and L disappears at a frequency high enough to give a first resonance with self capacitance.  This is a good link to measure self capacitance of coils:  http://www3.telus.net/chemelec/Calculators/Interwire-Coil-Capacitance-Calc.htm  may come as helpful for your bifilar coils too.

Sorry to hear you had to sacrifice a bobbin to get to the mechanical sizes, hopefully this has been the biggest loss in this setup. :D

Gyula

Thanks Gyula

The meter specs specified freq for capacitance ranges, but not for the inductance ranges. Being that it has ranges for inductance, it probably does use different freq ranges for different selected ranges. I have a couple known inductors I will check it with . The delivery is suppose to be 18th or 19th. Tomorrow or friday.

The dead Kenny bobbin. lol  I only made that a joke because these things are expensive at the auto parts stores.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trksid=p2047675.m570.l1313.TR11.TRC1.A0.Xdoor+panel+clips.TRS0&_nkw=door+panel+clips&_sacat=0&_from=R40


Mags

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Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #278 on: July 18, 2013, 01:55:20 AM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #279 on: July 19, 2013, 12:18:03 AM »
...
The meter specs specified freq for capacitance ranges, but not for the inductance ranges. Being that it has ranges for inductance, it probably does use different freq ranges for different selected ranges. I have a couple known inductors I will check it with . The delivery is suppose to be 18th or 19th. Tomorrow or friday.
...


Yes, you can hook up different coils and just use an oscilloscope with 10:1 probe across the coil being measured to check the oscillating frequency (mostly saw-tooth like waveforms).  or use a digital frequency meter (there are multimeters with frequency measuring feature too).  (Of course, using a probe or a freq meter across a coil being measured will change the displayed inductance a little but not the measuring frequency.)

Gyula

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #280 on: July 19, 2013, 05:25:23 AM »
Hey Gyula

Yes I have 2 meters that measure freq. Will do when it gets here tomorrow. Will have it in the morning.

What I really want this lcr meter for is measuring windings on cores of unknown quality/value. I have some projects that have been set aside just for these reasons.
Been working a lot in the last year. Im tired at the end of the day.  Been having some breaks in work to get some of these things going again. I havnt put a vid up in a long time. Was doing some custom car audio on the side on top of my regular job. Killing myself slowly. ;D But now I can spend a little on some equipment/tools Ive been meaning to get for some time now.

Mags

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Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #280 on: July 19, 2013, 05:25:23 AM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #281 on: July 20, 2013, 05:42:40 AM »
Ok, got the meter today. I first tested the coil you calculated the inductance on. It reads 82.6mh in the 200m scale and 83mh in the 2h scale. Not sure if that means much about the accuracy. But it is consistent. ;D

I forgot to stop at my shop to get those known inductors. I moved some stuff there while the apt building was being tented a couple weeks ago. lol, I moved out a lot of stuff. For one, someone seeing my bench area, being the tent people must have the keys, yet are not responsible for anything, in the contract, someone might take seeing all that not just as pulse motors and such. ;) If ya know what I mean. :o ;D Also I have 2 pc's, 2 laptops, stereo, tv's, personal stuff. Ive seen news shots of people breaking into tented houses with gas masks. So, I played it safe.  And now for the lol. My nice kitchen broom was gone when I got back. >:( ;D So who knows if I left it all here. ;)

The other functions work well, capacitance and resistance. Resistance down to .01ohm which is always nice. Great for locating the shorted component on the board without a lot of desoldering.  At times, it will only bring you close to the shorted part. My old Soundstream ref 705 had a short on the 15v rail for preamp and crossover circuitry. These lines go all across the board. But I found the shorted IC, 1 of 10 if I remember correctly, with my old Wavetek 2030. The IC was also looking a bit shinier than the others. I wasnt sure if it was the IC other than the shine, as it could have been a cap near by. But that was it once I desoldered it. It saves a lot of time in those cases. Also some bias resistors in amps are usually .15ohm, even .23 or .27ohm.  Now you can measure that accuracy confidently.


I checked the freq with a couple inductors that I have here. On the same scale, the freq changes with different inductors, also the same freq on most of the middle(4 of 6) ranges, but different freq in the 200uh and the 20h scales, all with the same 2 inductors just to see. So there is no one freq I can give you for the inductance. So maybe the meter puts a cap across the coil and sweeps for peaks.
The capacitance freq is 400hz for 200pf to 2uf.  80 hz for 20uf to 200uf and 10hz for 2000uf range

 I checked the 200uh scale and it goes down to .01uh.

The meter is kinda cheap in comparison to what I have in dvms. The instructions are very basic. But it seems to work. Ill get those inductors tomorrow. They are car audio crossover parts.


Mags

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #282 on: July 20, 2013, 07:34:34 PM »
Hi Mags,

Well, the measured value of 82.6 mH is rather far from my calculated value of 138.7 mH so something is wrong...  :-\

Using another on-line multilayer coil calculator with the 82.6 mH and your bobbin sizes, the number of turns comes out as 3391 and DC resistance as 648.03 Ohm, the small problem is coil OD comes out as 22 mm (2*9.4+3.4=22.2). Here is the other calculator link:
http://coil32.narod.ru/calc/multi_layer-en.html  and it uses Maxwell equations and elliptic integrals, and considers both bare wire diameter and insulated wire diameter (I used 0.0682 mm bare and 0.085 mm for insulated wire sizes). Unfortunately, a micrometer is needed to check the actual wire diameter, caliper is not enough.
Here is a link to an LC meter which may use similar circuit whereby the oscillator frequency changes as per the unknown coil inductance dictates: http://my.integritynet.com.au/purdic/lc-meter-project.htm#circuit-osc 
I have seen LC meters with fixed frequencies where the frequency was derived from the clock of a microcontroller (or microprocessor) and it was a fix value within a measurement range. Higher end LC meters use a switchable low (100Hz-1000Hz) and a high frequency (10kHz-1MHz) value to cover very wide measurement ranges and also to have a better resolution.
I wonder what measuring frequencies you found with the L ranges approximately (it is okay it changes by the coils). Curious also about the type or make if you do not mind.

Gyula

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #283 on: July 20, 2013, 09:12:01 PM »
Hi Mags,

Well, the measured value of 82.6 mH is rather far from my calculated value of 138.7 mH so something is wrong...  :-\

Using another on-line multilayer coil calculator with the 82.6 mH and your bobbin sizes, the number of turns comes out as 3391 and DC resistance as 648.03 Ohm, the small problem is coil OD comes out as 22 mm (2*9.4+3.4=22.2). Here is the other calculator link:
http://coil32.narod.ru/calc/multi_layer-en.html  and it uses Maxwell equations and elliptic integrals, and considers both bare wire diameter and insulated wire diameter (I used 0.0682 mm bare and 0.085 mm for insulated wire sizes). Unfortunately, a micrometer is needed to check the actual wire diameter, caliper is not enough.
Here is a link to an LC meter which may use similar circuit whereby the oscillator frequency changes as per the unknown coil inductance dictates: http://my.integritynet.com.au/purdic/lc-meter-project.htm#circuit-osc 
I have seen LC meters with fixed frequencies where the frequency was derived from the clock of a microcontroller (or microprocessor) and it was a fix value within a measurement range. Higher end LC meters use a switchable low (100Hz-1000Hz) and a high frequency (10kHz-1MHz) value to cover very wide measurement ranges and also to have a better resolution.
I wonder what measuring frequencies you found with the L ranges approximately (it is okay it changes by the coils). Curious also about the type or make if you do not mind.

Gyula

Hey Gyula

DY-4070g   
http://www.dyinstrument.com/duoyi/?q=LCR_meter/DY4070G/DY6243G/DY6013G


It was $70.  There are some out there for $18.   After playing with it more Im growing to like it. And would recommend it so far. ;D Much better can be had for twice as much or more. But this seems to do ok for our purposes.


Well your new calculation is just about there at 82.6mh.  The number of turns is 3300 and yours shows 3391  and the resistance is near spot on. ;)   Thanks for looking into that. There may be differences in thickness of insulation to factor in. Also maybe subtract a fraction of a mm in outer dia due to the windings dont come out level with the bobbin diameter.  Anyways, very close. ;D


I made this bifi coil with 26awg a couple weeks ago. Testing it I found very interesting results.

Measuring 1 of the 2 conductors measures 7mh. Same with the other. When I put them in parallel it measures 7mh. ??? I wonder if one of those windings were say fishing line, non inductive, would the single winding still read 7mh? Like does the simple presence of the other non connected winding affect the result of measuring the other alone.

Then in series it measures 27mh.  Its bifi, so may not be correct.


Tested it multiple times to be sure.

Ok I think I get what your saying on the freq of the meter.  I measured the freq without an inductor connected. 

200uh scale     786hz
2m   20m   200m  2h    217hz
20h  for some reason reads 222hz

Mags






Offline Magluvin

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Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #284 on: July 20, 2013, 09:23:52 PM »
Here is a pic of the test leads shorted in uh scale.  I made a mistake in my last post. .1uh not .01uh ;D

Mags

 

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