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Author Topic: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap  (Read 201978 times)

Offline Farmhand

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Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #165 on: June 10, 2013, 06:45:02 AM »
Conrad, would the moment of inertia of your rotor be more than Lasersabers ? I think is the question, if a spinning rotor has more energy than another at the same speed it would make sense that it would require more energy to get it up to speed and keep it there, keep it spinning. MileHigh and Tinsel Koala supplied all info needed to get the MoI of your rotor.

These pages are a great help if you want to find it..

Kinetic Energy of a flywheel
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/flywheel-energy-d_945.html

Moment of Inertia
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/moment-inertia-torque-d_913.html

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Offline Farmhand

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Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #166 on: June 10, 2013, 07:48:24 AM »
Oh I meant to say that an Earth battery would run LaserSabers motor for free a few times over I think.

I have two dissimilar stakes driven in the ground about 0.5 meter and 2 meters apart one is copper tube the other is a galvanized steel picket. They would last for years, and is scrap metal.
I get at times up to 900 mV with some short circuit current which I don't have equipment to measure properly and don't remember the measurement I got last time but I could try to check, I'll need to find a better meter, I might use the uA meter I have set up as a field strength indicator, I'll just need to disassemble it, i'll try with a multimeter first if I can find a suitable one.

Cheers

Offline JouleSeeker

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Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #167 on: June 10, 2013, 04:05:54 PM »
Conrad:
 
Quote
But I rather try to achieve OU with µA instaed of with 1000 A. At least one can fool oneself and others more easily with µA.

The purpose of the scientific method -- based on experiments with thorough measurements -- is IMO precisely to avoid "fooling oneself". 

And a self-runner, for example, keeping a cap charged while driving a load (however small) is a clear indication of tapping previously-untapped energy.

(I prefer not to use the term "overunity" "OU"
as this conjures up notions of violating laws of physics; when it is more likely getting energy from a real but previously untapped source of energy.)

Thanks for your research efforts and experiments -- and thanks to Lasersaber for another interesting project.

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Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #167 on: June 10, 2013, 04:05:54 PM »
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Offline JouleSeeker

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Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #168 on: June 10, 2013, 04:50:55 PM »
PS -- recent motor by Lidmotor uses the DadHav 2-transistor circuit. 

http://youtu.be/XHGQZucIMl8

Also, on my electronics bench:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeACDx6Ne1w&feature=youtu.be

This little "Slider motor" will run just fine at 0.65V @ 38uA, so about 25uW.

Offline conradelektro

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Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #169 on: June 10, 2013, 07:13:04 PM »

Also, on my electronics bench:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oeACDx6Ne1w&feature=youtu.be

This little "Slider motor" will run just fine at 0.65V @ 38uA, so about 25uW.

JouleSeeker: My remark "fooling oneself or others" was an attempt at sarcasm, because since ten years I only see OU contraptions which are a delusion or a deception. I try to not fool myself and others, but one never knows what the future brings (again sarcasm).

Do you know how the "dancing-flower circuit" works? If there are four wires leading from the flat coil to the circuit, a trigger coil might be in use?

In the video only one coil drives the rotor, which is interesting. I am not convinced that more coils are necessarily better than fewer coils (with a higher DC resistance).

Once I have tried the coils from the relays which I have found ( http://www.conrad.at/ce/de/product/503614/Miniatur-Print-Relais-AZ943-15-A-Zettler-Electronics-AZ943-1CH-24DE-24-VDC-1-Wechsler-Max-15-A-Max-30-VDC300-VAC, 1600 Ohm DC resistance) I also want to try just two coils with 6400 Ohm DC resistance. One coil at 180° and the other at 360°, and may be 12 magnets on the rotor. Just one coil hurts my wish for symmetry (but I might be wrong).

I am also thinking about using bigger magnets (stronger magnets), because the weight of the rotor is not so important once it has started to turn. A heavier rotor might need a little push to overcome inertia and take longer to accelerate, but the needle bearing can carry a heavier load without developing much more friction.

I like the idea of a longer axle (as in the video) because the top magnet can hold it straight up easier (longer lever). Needles are easy to find and are very strong, but I have never seen very long sewing needles.

I also looked for sapphire vee bearings and it seems the only easy way to get them is from Amazon in the US (as Lasersaber indicates in his forum)? They come from China or India, but I could not find a source in Europe. I was thinking about destroying one of my older mechanical watches or better alarm clocks to salvage the jewel bearings, but this are "hole bearings" not the vee type.

Greetings, Conrad

P.S.: I found very long sewing needles
http://www.ebay.at/itm/Polsternadel-Stoffnadel-Nahnadel-Ledernadel-Segelnadel-Sattlernadel-Nadel-K-5-/200715941868?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_77&hash=item2ebb9a37ec

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Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #169 on: June 10, 2013, 07:13:04 PM »
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Offline JouleSeeker

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Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #170 on: June 10, 2013, 08:48:43 PM »

....
Do you know how the "dancing-flower circuit" works? If there are four wires leading from the flat coil to the circuit, a trigger coil might be in use?

In the video only one coil drives the rotor, which is interesting. I am not convinced that more coils are necessarily better than fewer coils (with a higher DC resistance).
....

Greetings, Conrad ....

Greetings, Conrad - yes, sewing needles work great as bearing AND as the axle (as in my little vid, above)

Re: function of the "dancing flower", just 2 wires to the coil.  Slider wrote to me (and said its no secret):

Quote
In a dancing flower, the coil sits on a base and is glued to it. To remove the coil, it's safest and easiest to bend the plastics down either side of it with pliers, such that the glue breaks and the coil can be lifted away. The 'petals' are on a hinge, with a dangling piece of plastic that has some weight and a small neo mounted inside. The neo is pushed each time the coil fires and produces a pendulum type swing to and fro.
All i've done, is to convert each firing to 360 degree rotation, by having the 4 magnets on the rotor.
2 magnets on opposites sides work, but it doesn't always self start.

Using a DC PS, I found that the speed of the rotor depends on the VOLTAGE; for example, at 0.65 V (close to the minimum for it to run), the rotor likes to spin at about 98 RPM.  Faster with higher voltage - but don't go too high or you'll burn out the circuit. 

Also, the motor (and the nearby driven-rotor) will spin at integer-multiples of the fundamental, as one might expect - depending on how fast you spin the rotor to get it started.  If you let the motor self-start, it chooses the lowest omega = angular velocity.

Next I'm going to the DadHav circuit/motor -- and I think the Lasersaber motor is very intriguing also!

Offline SkyWatcher123

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Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #171 on: June 10, 2013, 09:28:09 PM »
Hi folks, thought of another type of use for long high ohm coils.
For example, a three stage motor coil setup could be used.
Where we have one main coil set used to power a motor, then a second set of coils with same mass, higher ohms, can be powered from a capacitor, using the flyback from the main drive coils.
Then a third set of coils with same mass, even higher ohm coils, can be powered from a capacitor, using the flyback from the second set of coils.
Capacitors would be sized at proper voltage and capacity, to give additional coil stages good pulse strength and the capacitor size being able to maintain the coil load without depleting under the main input voltage.
This setup would be similar to the mechanical analogue of pulley ratios, to use the higher voltage/low current (higher speed/lower torque) of the flyback, to convert into a more usable form.
peace love light
tyson :)

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Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #171 on: June 10, 2013, 09:28:09 PM »
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Offline Farmhand

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Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #172 on: June 10, 2013, 11:10:56 PM »
Unfortunately I can't check the current of my Earth battery because the copper tube got removed and the hole filled in, it must have got in somebody's way, bummer.
Anyway we all know how it works and about the power available in most cases.

The thing with the really high DC resistance coils is that as the power of the motor is increased by raising the voltage or whatever to drive a reasonable load then the power dissipated in the resistance of the coils would become significant.

All the high power motors that I've looked at that can run varying loads and are most efficient with a full load all have low resistance coils and it's for a good reason I think.

As well i don't think many of us have the equipment or skill to measure very low power accurately enough to make any claims. uW power devices can be very efficient because of the minute amount of current at play, Fact of the matter is that the load possible for the motor is directly related to the maximum power of the motor.

A spinning rotor has energy for sure but it isn't a useful output unless it is used for a useful purpose to do work. The very least load would be a no touch rotating timing device as a use for a spinning rotor
(effectively no load but it is being used) efficiency is then at play. If the rotor is serving no purpose the output is nil and so there is no efficiency at all.

Conrad, to get to higher speeds wind resistance will be a factor as well, uA power devices are also restricted by wind resistance. Try taking a uA power motor with 9000 Ohms motor coil resistance up to 4000 rpm and see how hot the coils get because of how much the input multiplies to do it and the massive DC resistance.

Basically if a light rotor takes a fair while to spin up at full power the motor has very little usable shaft power. All things being equal it does take more than double the energy to run the rotor at double the speed because of increased wind resistance mainly. Just like a fan, the load caused by a fan as it speeds up is not linear, it takes a lot more energy to take a fan from say 2200 to 2300 rpm than it does to go from 300 rpm to 400 rpm. Lot's more. If the speed is continuously raised for a fan eventually it will cause cavitation and possibly the resistance caused by more speed will even off or even drop, but so will the air moved.

Work cannot be performed without energy being used to do it.

Cheers

P.S. I think the real question we should ask ourselves is. Do we think this device or a device like it can produce more output than we input to make it work ? Considering the DC resistance of the circuit I would be inclined to say, I don't think so.

If anyone could maybe explain how they think it might be possible by using less and less power, or why going this route would give more chance than any other or any chance of producing "more out than in" I would appreciate the insight.

..


Offline Pirate88179

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Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #173 on: June 11, 2013, 01:52:23 AM »
Oh I meant to say that an Earth battery would run LaserSabers motor for free a few times over I think.

I have two dissimilar stakes driven in the ground about 0.5 meter and 2 meters apart one is copper tube the other is a galvanized steel picket. They would last for years, and is scrap metal.
I get at times up to 900 mV with some short circuit current which I don't have equipment to measure properly and don't remember the measurement I got last time but I could try to check, I'll need to find a better meter, I might use the uA meter I have set up as a field strength indicator, I'll just need to disassemble it, i'll try with a multimeter first if I can find a suitable one.

Cheers

It should do it easily.  I have run my Bedini motor from mine.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rauOlhNK0iY

This was from an output of just 2 volts.  I did not make any of the JohnnyDavro modifications for efficiency at the time of this video.

Bill

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Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #173 on: June 11, 2013, 01:52:23 AM »
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Offline wattsup

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Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #174 on: June 11, 2013, 06:09:01 PM »
Also posted at @lasersabers web site.

@ Wattsup

I may remake the project in 123D Design because it is important to me that people be able to access the design files freely.

I may put the older versions on eBay with a starting bid price to just cover the materials cost.  I may end up with a lot of these motors before I finalize the design.


@LaserSaber

I really don't want to overburden you by suggesting you should migrate the design to 123D. Best you spend your time on more crucial matters. Forget about eBay when you have @wattsupbay right here ready to buy any one of your present models just to get my hands dirty, uh wet, uh busy, uh you know what I mean.

An easy test.........

Find a very small standard transformer (or one you have made yourself) and put the primary in series on one or the other side of the reed and see what you can get from the secondary. Then feed back the secondary to the holding cap. Maybe rectify the secondary with a germanium diode so the cap does not unload itself into the secondary. This would be a first trial in looping some energy back to the source capacitor without relying on the actual existing system.

If you want to get it working even harder use a second reed on top of the first reed and connect the transformer primary between the reeds so all three are in series (reed-transformer primary-reed) so that the primary gets completely disconnected from both sides when the reeds are open. See the effect.

When you apply any power source to a coiling system, does not matter how it is driven, if only one side of the coil is a breaking point, the other side of the coil is still permanently biased to the source polarity so the change in the coil is never complete. Is is only complete when both coil ends are completely disconnected that the coil re-biases itself to the only field left........to the Earth field, just  like your compass will bounce back to north (or south) when you remove a magnet. This may provide some added energy source but only if the coil is completely off the source from both sides. Sounds simplistic but I have found this to be very true.

The problem arises when such a scheme is tried with mosfets or transistors, the above condition can never be 100% true as it can be with a physical reed break. You can even try a second reed without a transformer and just put that second reed on the other side of your series coils and see the effect.

wattsup


Offline conradelektro

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Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #175 on: June 11, 2013, 06:49:11 PM »

An easy test.........

Find a very small standard transformer (or one you have made yourself) and put the primary in series on one or the other side of the reed and see what you can get from the secondary. Then feed back the secondary to the holding cap. Maybe rectify the secondary with a germanium diode so the cap does not unload itself into the secondary. This would be a first trial in looping some energy back to the source capacitor without relying on the actual existing system.

If you want to get it working even harder use a second reed on top of the first reed and connect the transformer primary between the reeds so all three are in series (reed-transformer primary-reed) so that the primary gets completely disconnected from both sides when the reeds are open. See the effect.

When you apply any power source to a coiling system, does not matter how it is driven, if only one side of the coil is a breaking point, the other side of the coil is still permanently biased to the source polarity so the change in the coil is never complete. Is is only complete when both coil ends are completely disconnected that the coil re-biases itself to the only field left........to the Earth field, just  like your compass will bounce back to north (or south) when you remove a magnet. This may provide some added energy source but only if the coil is completely off the source from both sides. Sounds simplistic but I have found this to be very true.

The problem arises when such a scheme is tried with mosfets or transistors, the above condition can never be 100% true as it can be with a physical reed break. You can even try a second reed without a transformer and just put that second reed on the other side of your series coils and see the effect.

wattsup

@Wattsup: I am always at a loss if someone "talks" a circuit instead of "drawing" it.

I would very much like to do your "easy test", but could not understand how to do it. Therefore I made a drawing of the circuit which you seem to talk about. (I have several standard transformers, some which I bought and some which I wound myself.)

Questions:

1) Could you please clarify the circuit for your "easy test", best by making a drawing of the circuit. (Could be a hand drawing which you photograph.)

2) Should the "holding cap" be pre-charged? (To what Voltage?) Should there be a power supply (e.g. a battery)?

3) How should one activate the Reed switches? (Must probably happen at a certain frequency, and this will need energy?)

4) Any idea whether the secondary of the "standard transformer" should have more windings than the primary or the other way round or an equal amount of turns?

I am not sure if you are interested in a meaningful discussion of your "easy test". If you are, a drawing of the circuit and some useful and understandable details will probably be the only way forward.

Greetings, Conrad

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Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #175 on: June 11, 2013, 06:49:11 PM »
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Offline wattsup

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Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #176 on: June 11, 2013, 11:21:18 PM »
@conradelektro

Yes maybe I should have been more explicit that these tests can be done on existing EZ Spin Motors.

I have done a drawing below to show you how to try it.

You can test it by precharging your cap to your regular voltage that you have used to run the motor. Or, you can always run it with your battery to start with and then remove the battery.

The two reeds can be positioned at the same location or at two different locations as long as they are activated at the same time by the rotor magnets. Then you can always play around with that position to see if a slight offset in timing will be better or not.

The transformer should be very small, about the size of your thumb. Primary to secondary ration of turns is really not important at this stage. Most transformers are step down type so you can always try it by using the secondary between the reeds and the primary going to the cap.

The other option I mention in the drawing is simply not using a transformer but having two reeds, one before and one after the 6 series coils. This is the real method to release the energy in the coils while the reeds are both open. If you scope this one I expect the waveform should rise off the screen

These are just low cost test ideas that I should be doing myself if I had an EZ motor (hint-hint). lol

wattsup

Added:

@gyulsan

Yes I had mentioned the diode as well but forgot to add it to the drawing. It is added now.

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #177 on: June 11, 2013, 11:29:45 PM »
Hi wattsup,

May I mention that the DC resistance of the secondary coil of the transformer you connect in parallel with the 1000 uF capacitor may discharge it severly?  Probably a diode in series with the secondary helps prevent discharging.

Gyula

Offline conradelektro

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Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #178 on: June 12, 2013, 08:33:49 AM »
The double Reed switch dilemma:

A) Opening two Reed switches: A reed switch before the primary and one after the primary of a transformer (or coils) will never open at exactly the same time. So, whatever happens will happen while one Reed switch is still on. One can adjust which one will open first.

B) Closing two Reed switches: It is similar when the Reed switch before and the Reed switch after the primary (or coils) close, but in this case the two Reed switches act like a logical AND. So, whatever happens will happen at the moment the second Reed switch closes as well. One can adjust which one will close first (but it does not matter which one closes first).

Conclusion:

Opening or closing two Reed switches at the same time is practically not possible. Electricity moves at the speed of light, the mechanical action of a Reed switch is always too slow.

Even with two Reed switches in a single glass tube, one will open/close first (depending on how the magnet approaches the glass tube and on the physical properties of the two switches, one will bend easier than the other).

Greetings, Conrad

Offline Poit

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Re: Has anyone seen Lasersabers new motor runs on 1000uf cap
« Reply #179 on: June 12, 2013, 08:41:39 AM »
Circuit Diagram = http://xkcd.com/730/

:)

 

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