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Author Topic: Finally! Independent Testing Of Rossi's E-Cat Cold Fusion Device. Success?  (Read 54478 times)

Offline rensseak

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Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline fritz

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As Milehigh explained they are measuring heat not heat flow.

Where´s the problem ?
An object with temperature "n" emits at least "black body radiation" - additional to that there will be heat transfer due to convection.
Deriving the radiation (energy flow) from the temperature is straight forward.
Setting up calorimetry would trigger the need to measure a flow and 2 temperatures.
This might be a monstrous setup using a media heated up to 800 deg.
As Planck´s Law is something usual scientists believe in - it´s an appropriate and exact way to measure the energy flow (caused from black body radiation) from a hot body.
If the device would operate at lower temperatures, the convection effect would dominate the energy transfer - and the appropriate way to measure would be "proper calorimetry".
In such setup the radiation component would be assumed to be almost ignoreable.

To sum it up - its a matter of operating temperature.

rgds.

Offline verpies

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Sterling's has commented on why the testing is not up to par, including in one case some actual calculation errors using this method. 
What calculation errors?

As Milehigh explained they are measuring heat not heat flow.
The transfer of thermal energy from an object to the environment constitutes a flow of energy.

From a dumb ass perspective (mine)  If I had a soldering iron and applied power it would heat up but stay in a certain temperature band according to the ability to it to disperse the heat. If I turned it off it would cool down. If I put more power into it it would get hotter and may even glow red and other colors if I kept heating it at a rate faster than it could disperse the heat.
1. What is the difference from this to a Rossi Tube
The thermal energy transfer relationship is the same.
Your soldering iron would produce thermal energy internally and lose this energy to the environment through EM radiation, convection and conduction (EM loss would dominate only at very high temperatures).
Because the rate of this loss is proportional to the rate of production, then the temperature equilibrizes at a level when these rates become equal.
This way the temperature becomes proportional to the rate thermal energy production/dissipation.

The function of this proportionality is influenced by surface blackness, emitter's shape (including porosity),  thermal contact area between emitter and support struts, air temperature, air pressure, air humidity and air velocity.

2. Why does it cool down if it is past the heat thresh hold to make it so called self run.
I don't know.
Maybe the internal energy production ceases to increase above some temperature.

I can find no indication that the clampons can detect DC current offsets.
This is very significant !
If these clampon ammeter probes indeed are insensitive to DC or HF, then this opens up new possibilities of clandestine power delivery to the E-Cat.

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Offline fritz

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This is very significant !
If these clampon ammeter probes indeed are insensitive to DC or HF, then this opens up new possibilities of clandestine power delivery to the E-Cat.

[DC]    Every mains-powered equipment  with a transformer connected to the same line will immediatly _die_.
[RF]     Any RF power source capable to substitute the power effect at that level (>1kW) will provoke artefacts in the area of the setup.
If you keep in mind that there is no matched transmission line from "fake rf main" to DUT - there would be the need for 4 or even more kW of RF output power.

For me, the only true proof would be:
If the hot cat weights the same as a duck.

Offline markdansie

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Our speculations are meaningless but worthwhile given the predictions and promises of Rossi the last two years vs those asking questions...I think the skeptics win.
I have never said there is not an effect, in fact many other people have observed small increases. However no one has ever been able to engineer it into something useful. there is where the real challenge.
I think also the people in the market place with their scrutiny and engineers have spoken. According to Mr Green not 1 single unit has been sold...you think it would be a no brainier if it worked to anyone's satisfaction.
So two years on...no robot factories, no E-cat sales and no testing that I would consider convincing.
Just my opinion
Mark


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Offline markdansie

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What calculation errors?
The transfer of thermal energy from an object to the environment constitutes a flow of energy.
The thermal energy transfer relationship is the same.
Your soldering iron would produce thermal energy internally and lose this energy to the environment through EM radiation, convection and conduction (EM loss would dominate only at very high temperatures).
Because the rate of this loss is proportional to the rate of production, then the temperature equilibrizes at a level when these rates become equal.
This way the temperature becomes proportional to the rate thermal energy production/dissipation.

The function of this proportionality is influenced by surface blackness, emitter's shape (including porosity),  thermal contact area between emitter and support struts, air temperature, air pressure, air humidity and air velocity.
Agreed to all that so if I crank up the input power it should progressively increase the temperature once it passes a threshold of where no more energy can be radiated.....hence will get red hot.
I don't know.
Maybe the internal energy production ceases to increase above some temperature.
This is very significant !
If these clampon ammeter probes indeed are insensitive to DC or HF, then this opens up new possibilities of clandestine power delivery to the E-Cat.

Offline TinselKoala

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Hi TK,
I see Rosemary is now being promoted by Sterling.
She sent me a lot of papers and read some but have not had time, or the expertise to offer any opinions.  There is one red flag for me with my basic knowledge....why does it only work with a battery and not a cap? ???

(snip)

Well.... since you asked....
But it _does_ work with a capacitor power supply, as I showed very clearly with my Tar Baby replication. It produces exactly the same waveforms including the magic oscillations with a capacitor power supply, for as long as the capacitor has enough charge in it. I ran the full Tar Baby, which is a full replication of the 5-mosfet system, using a 330,000 microFarad capacitor bank, and showed that the "negative power" product was produced, that the oscillations were produced, and that the capacitors ran down nevertheless. Also, with the design help from Poynt99, I built a "pocket OU demonstrator", the Altoid,  that uses a single mini-mosfet, runs a LED or resistive load, makes the Ainslie oscillations and the negative power product when hooked to any oscilloscope, and runs _completely without batteries_ using only its onboard 2 Farad capacitor, for long enough to be very impressive.

I've offered many times to have Tar Baby tested side-by-side with Ainslie's device to show that they are identical in schematic and performance. The very idea of this challenge terrifies Ainslie, of course, because Tar Baby is not OU, its batteries do discharge, etc.

She is currently making the rounds, sending harassing letters to scientists and professors, and has gotten some play on PESN, including a couple of current photographs.
 
Her promised "test" that she claims will happen on June 1st looks to be a planned repeat of the demo of two years ago, which she has now removed from her four YouTube accounts in an attempt to cover it up.... but it is still visible on my YT channel as a record of the lies and misrepresentations it contains.

But take a close look at the pictures on PESN. They are very revealing, especially to those who have been following the Ainslie saga.

For example:
The Function Generator is set to produce a triangle ramp, not a square pulse, and the offset knob is pulled out, turning this offset function ON, and is cranked all the way to the maximum positive offset. This FG setting, with the Red output of the FG connected to the single mosfet gate, will likely keep that transistor ON for long duty cycles and as shown will produce a lot of heat in the RV water heater element she uses as a load... suspended in air with the thermocouple attached to it. Only three of the six batteries are in use.... and the mosfet has been provided with a much larger heatsink than it had in the demo from two years ago. Ainslie has claimed many times that this mosfet stays cool. So why the big heatsink? Why the operation with only three batteries in series when the claim is made that all six can be used? I know why.

I've challenged her to repeat the second part of the 2011 demo, the "high heat" mode, but with all six batteries instead of the 4 she showed then or the three she's using now, and actually boil some water doing it, as she has claimed. With the same small heatsink on the Q1 mosfet that was in use then.  Anyone want to bet on the outcome?

(Note that 3 x 12V x 50 A-H == 1800 Watt-hours. It will take a long time to run those batteries down, even continuously heating that element to over 200 degrees. But with the full 72 volts _claimed_ input, the Q1 mosfet will fail before a liter of water can be boiled.)

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Offline fritz

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According to Mr Green not 1 single unit has been sold...you think it would be a no brainier if it worked to anyone's satisfaction.
So two years on...no robot factories, no E-cat sales and no testing that I would consider convincing.
Just my opinion
Mark

Maybe I have a different background.
Together with a friend we developed some nifty tool:
http://amemusica.wordpress.com/author/ajakes/
It´s no e-cat but has some "wow" effect, lots of people asked  us where they can buy it - and maybe this product has some potential.
You have no idea what happens if something starts to be "interesting". Strange investors, companies, fraud, licenses, patents, tooling costs,
redesigns, games, crazy folks, promises.... since 5 years now. - no product.
Due to the advent of 3D printing we are now able to ramp up some proto-series - independent.

In my actual project (sil3 industrial control for power protection, generator excitation and turbine controllers ) we have already 2 years delay - and we all know
that we have to rewrite the entire project from scratch after the next milestone /managment presentation.

It´s difficult to do such stuff without (at least internal) promises and deadlines. That´s when "professional communication" comes into play.

With this background - I see the progress on the e-cat pretty mindboggling for a new, disruptive product operating on physics to be defined.

And even if the presentation / communication is somewhat scam-a-like - there are pretty less alternatives how to do it.

rgds.

 

Offline profitis

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@mark and @fritz...im thinking that no i.r. meter would be needed,and no wattmeter would be needed either. at 'tenfold' conventional power one would only have to stand in front of 1)the controll and 2)the hotcat and simply feel the heat-blast,big dif guys.   

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Offline fritz

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Ainslie saga

Maybe it´s not best practice to mix up multiple disruptive technologies.

Offline markdansie

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Many thanks TK for your answer, the other reason in the end I did not proceed wast he condition I do not talk to you about anything, I do not like conditions. She is laying out a lot of conditions for the test as well. Its interesting, I remember once going to South Africa and very highly qualified electrical engineer had the wool pulled over his eyes by a crafty inventor (magnetic motor) It takes people like you not only with exceptional expertise, but the experience of working with these technologies.
No doubt I will get some abusive emails again.

Email me sometime (markdansie@gmail.com ) I have a question unrelated to these topics you might have an insight on.

Kind Regards
Mark

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline profitis

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@tk..i would suggest to you and mrs ainslie to use two seperate batteries or caps,one to power circuit,one to recharge.have you perhaps tried this before?powering a circuit AND recharging on a single bat or cap is one way to encounter all sorts probs,chemical damage,i.r./strain losses,screws with the battery's mind big time.

Offline fritz

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@mark and @fritz...im thinking that no i.r. meter would be needed,and no wattmeter would be needed either. at 'tenfold' conventional power one would only have to stand in front of 1)the controll and 2)the hotcat and simply feel the heat-blast,big dif guys.

... But using hi-tec equippment typically improves confidence, whatever humbug is going on.
If you have ten witnesses stating that they operated a fin sauna for ten days by means of a single 1.5V cell - you will argue that it was mass-suggestion.
If they measured the setup with a 64ch thermocouple setup - you would exclude mass-suggestion but insist on wrong calibration.... and so on.
Its difficult to achieve extra-ordinary-proof.
Even if you blow up north korea with an e-cat nuke - there will be no proof but a banned technology. ;D

Offline profitis

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yes @fritz.its also hard for some scientists to accept that sumtin 'just dont figure here'.we gota do our own tests.

Offline TinselKoala

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@tk..i would suggest to you and mrs ainslie to use two seperate batteries or caps,one to power circuit,one to recharge.have you perhaps tried this before?powering a circuit AND recharging on a single bat or cap is one way to encounter all sorts probs,chemical damage,i.r./strain losses,screws with the battery's mind big time.
I am not the one making claims, Ainslie is. Please feel free to join her forum and make your suggestions to her yourself.

Have I recharged batteries and capacitors using various inductive spike circuits? Yes, many times. Including Ainslie circuits? Yes, many times, and my work is documented on YouTube. Have I actually even run devices on batteries or capacitors that the device itself charged? Yes, I have. Have I run a device on a small battery and charged up a larger battery with its spikes? Yes, I have. Have other people done these things too? Of course they have. Have I ever encountered a pair of swapping batteries whose _total energy content_ went up during the course of these experiments? No, I have not. Has anyone else, ever? No, not that I am aware of.

 

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