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Author Topic: BRAZIL - Company is building a Gravity Generator http://www.rarenergia.com.br/  (Read 85008 times)

Offline Red_Sunset

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Exactly! And that is why - as I mentioned earlier -  the pivot should only move when the conversion process of gravity into rotation has finished (in the vertical position).
...........................................
.......................................
 That peak correlates with the horizontal (weightless) position of a pendulum (at which the lever »fires«).
Thus, a lot more (odd coincidences) to investigate, I think. :P
Zeit,
I am not sure that I am understanding you correctly:   

What do you mean with " the pivot should only move ....................in the vertical position"
 *  Move into which direction?, logically I would assume that with the pendulum in the vertical position, the pivot could move better 'down' than 'up'.

What do you mean with " at which the lever fires" 
*  Do you mean this " as opposition to 'down' on the vertical",  this being 'up' ?

Red


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Offline Zeitmaschine

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Quote
What do you mean with " the pivot should only move ....................in the vertical position"

When the pendulum is in its vertical position (swings through its vertical position) then the conversion of energy from potential to kinetic has ended while the conversion from kinetic to potential is just about to start. All energy is stored in the horizontal velocity of the mass of the pendulum (mass × velocity = stored kinetic energy). So I can't see how the down movement of the pivot at that vertical position could ever draw energy out of the pendulum.

Quote
What do you mean with " at which the lever fires"

When the pendulum rests at its vertical position (not swinging) then the lever has an overbalance on the pendulum's side because of the weight of the resting pendulum (normal state). When the pendulum swings then it is weightless at both of its horizontal positions. At that moment the lever »fires«, it goes down on its opposite side because without the counter weight of the pendulum that side is now overbalanced.

The same applies to  the spark: The spark fires because of an imbalance (of electrons) between the transformer coil and the piece of metal, which occurs most intensely on each peak of the sine wave. The magnetic field of the transformer moves the electrons back and forth in the secondary coil (like a pendulum) without doing any real work (also like the pendulum) but creating thereby a spark, like the swinging pendulum creates a moving lever, without doing any real work (friction disregarded).


This is stuff for brilliant minds. :D

Offline Zeitmaschine

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Another add-on (for even more brilliant minds): ;D

As a matter of fact, when the pendulum is in its weightless position (horizontal) then we can move its pivot around as we wish and we can even stop it completely in that position (although losing its weightlessness), because at that point all energy is stored as gravity potential indefinitely (like a capacitor stores an electric field indefinitely). After releasing it, it will keep on swinging, like nothing has happened.

So the only thing in question can be: Can we move down the pivot, when the pendulum swings through its vertical position, without taking energy out of it? When we move down the pivot at vertical (6 o'clock), then we move the pivot in direction of the acting centrifugal force. Therefore, does a pendulum convert part of its energy into centrifugal force? Or does it just convert between potential and kinetic energy? Even if so, then force is not energy. What would happen, if we would move the pivot of a pendulum - heavy weight, slowly swinging, suspended on a one meter string - down two meters, exactly when it swings through its 6 o'clock position? Would it keep on swinging without energy loss?

What would happen if we drop the pendulum at 6 o'clock? At that point all energy is stored in its horizontal velocity. Then will the pendulum's bob keep on moving in horizontal direction (no air drag) while it accelerates downwards? If we stop the pendulum's freefall after awhile, will it continue to swing?

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Offline Red_Sunset

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Another add-on (for even more brilliant minds): ;D

As a matter of fact, when the pendulum is in its weightless position (horizontal) then we can move its pivot around as we wish and we can even stop it completely in that position (although losing its weightlessness), because at that point all energy is stored as gravity potential indefinitely (like a capacitor stores an electric field indefinitely). After releasing it, it will keep on swinging, like nothing has happened.

So the only thing in question can be: Can we move down the pivot, when the pendulum swings through its vertical position, without taking energy out of it? When we move down the pivot at vertical (6 o'clock), then we move the pivot in direction of the acting centrifugal force. Therefore, does a pendulum convert part of its energy into centrifugal force? Or does it just convert between potential and kinetic energy? Even if so, then force is not energy. What would happen, if we would move the pivot of a pendulum - heavy weight, slowly swinging, suspended on a one meter string - down two meters, exactly when it swings through its 6 o'clock position? Would it keep on swinging without energy loss?

What would happen if we drop the pendulum at 6 o'clock? At that point all energy is stored in its horizontal velocity. Then will the pendulum's bob keep on moving in horizontal direction (no air drag) while it accelerates downwards? If we stop the pendulum's freefall after awhile, will it continue to swing?

For a brilliant mind, there is nothing like a practical test to confirm a proposition.
The pendulum definitely recovers the energy it dropped at vertical, when the swing is at or near horizontal and the pivot moves up.
Moving the pivot up will directly impact/reduce  the angular swing at this point. Effective reducing the potential energy invested in he swing.  At this point, the pendulum angular momentum has the most torque ( & most potential energy / dgr), so it has the most too loose per degree at this position.

At vertical , extracting the centrifugal force comes directly out of the increased available energy as provided by the drop & cord length.  The energy zero reference position is the starting position (horizontal, pivot up).   
In practice, it is impossible to instantaneously drop the weight at vertical, therefore it is impossible to have that movement not impacting the swing. The same applies to the horizontal for pivot up.  (although it could be curtailed within agreeable boundaries).
A practical execution does tend to put limitations on theoretical proposals.

Red_Sunset
 
« Last Edit: May 27, 2015, 06:42:28 AM by Red_Sunset »

Offline Zeitmaschine

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Quote
For a brilliant mind, there is nothing like a practical test to confirm a proposition.

This is the crucial point! I'm afraid I can't practically construct a pendulum-lever setup that works with mathematical precision. But if it don't, then the erratic moving lever will slow down the pendulum and this will prove nothing.

Because of that, I would rather like to construct the electric version of that mechanic pendulum-lever setup. Instead of using gravity as energy source, the electric version should use the electric field that surrounds us like gravity does. So when gravity pulls down the lever on one side and hence moves up the pivot on the other side, because of the temporary weightlessness of the pendulum's bob, then what would be the equivalent of this in an electric LC circuit? And indeed there should be an electric equivalent, regardless for now whether there is overunity involved or not.

Ideas?

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Offline Red_Sunset

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In continuation to my previous post, the attached drawing gives a graphical view on an ideal configuration and operation, no practical negative aspects have been taken into account.

1.. The pendulum starts from the right, pivot is at A. 
2.. The blob swing clockwise and drops the pivot to B at the vertical. The drop is an ideal instantaneous event.
3.. The centrifugal down force is determined by the weight and its velocity. The problem in the ideal event is that the drop is instantaneous, at that moment there is no longer any velocity to provide centrifugal force.  With other words, extra centrifugal down force is negated by the inverse of the drop window angle.  So we can only count on gravity weight over the drop distance as energy out (the sting in the carpet)
4..  When the blob reaches the position "Pivot up START", the pivot and weight move up synchronously in order to utilize the inertia of the blob.
5..  When the pivot is restored to point A, the blob is now at a position that is 1 potential energy unit lower than when it started its swing at the right.

Conclusion:  We harvested 1 energy unit at vertical,  unfortunately this unit had to be paid for a "Pivot up END"

Any comments or errors?  Please feel free to comment.

Red_Sunset

Offline Zeitmaschine

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My free comment: :D

That illustration looks enlightening - at first sight. Congratulations! But, for some reason which I do not fully understand yet, that theory does not match reality. At least not the reality that I can see in this video below.

As you said earlier »I bet he knows exactly how this works and why«. So, then he should also know that this is NOT working (according to the theory in the illustration), but then, why is his website still online? What's the point?

Can you see in the video any difference in the movement of the pendulum, especially regarding the height of its return points, whether the lever moves or the lever is locked? I cannot. Why? One could argue, that the movement of the pivot is too small to see a difference in the pendulum's return height. But on the other hand, that small pivot/lever movement creates a strong force nevertheless. Hence, do we have a wrong reality or rather a wrong theory? I have to think about that.

Furthermore, what happens to the centrifugal and centripetal forces when the pivot moves down? Are they of interest or not?

Still puzzled what centrifugal and centripetal force means in a LC circuit. ???

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Offline Red_Sunset

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My free comment: :D

That illustration looks enlightening - at first sight. Congratulations! But, for some reason which I do not fully understand yet, that theory does not match reality. At least not the reality that I can see in this video below.

As you said earlier »I bet he knows exactly how this works and why«. So, then he should also know that this is NOT working (according to the theory in the illustration), but then, why is his website still online? What's the point?

Can you see in the video any difference in the movement of the pendulum, especially regarding the height of its return points, whether the lever moves or the lever is locked? I cannot. Why? One could argue, that the movement of the pivot is too small to see a difference in the pendulum's return height. But on the other hand, that small pivot/lever movement creates a strong force nevertheless. Hence, do we have a wrong reality or rather a wrong theory? I have to think about that.

Furthermore, what happens to the centrifugal and centripetal forces when the pivot moves down? Are they of interest or not?

Still puzzled what centrifugal and centripetal force means in a LC circuit. ???
Zeit,
Do not take any statement as ABSOLUTE.  That sure would be confusing.
I proposed a logical step by step flow of operation of an IDEAL (not a practical) model. 
The question to ask is, does every step make sense?   Even if it make sense that would mean it is probably true, but not necessary absolutely true.  Only practical dependable validation can confirm the accuracy of the statement.

What do we have as counter argument.
1.. Milkovic has a website showing his device
2.. The video is taken from a complete wrong angle to show impact of pivot movement on the swing (why didn't he take that shot perpendicular, I would guess as a technical person he would be attentive to that ), so I do not give it much accuracy value ( I would NOT use it as evidence)
3..  Do we have any dependable validation to suggest OU  (ease of use, yes)

To come back to the impact of dropping the pivot.
We have 2 extremes and 1 in between,
1.. No drop, only velocity (inertia)
2.. Drop instantaneous  (no velocity only weight)
3.. Drop over a specific swing angle  (velocity & centrifugal)

In the ideal model, the drop happens in a finit time frame, this effectively obliterates the velocity vector ( confirmation would be welcome).     In a practical model, the drop happens over a defined time period, then there is velocity and the centrifugal will manifest itself.  I am not completely done to the exact results that would come out of that.

When it comes to electronic equivalence,  there is a lot of similarity but there isn’t necessary an exact 1 to1 equivalence for everything.  You rather should see the comparison in a general sense of symmetry in nature, in the mechanics of conversion and feedback mechanisms.

Red
« Last Edit: May 27, 2015, 08:07:11 PM by Red_Sunset »

Offline Red_Sunset

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I am not sure why we are trying to re-invent the wheel,  Some existing reading material attached
See attached pdf :  Jovan_Marjanovic_Secret_of_Free_Energy_from_Pendulum
I found this on Milkovic website :  http://www.veljkomilkovic.com/OscilacijeEng.html

Red

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Offline Red_Sunset

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Some references that address the movable pivot impact on pendulum motion.

Extracts from Jovan Marjanovic

///
PENDULUM WITH MOVABLE PIVOT POINT
Author has seen some pendulums which were able to swing over two
hours when their pivot point was fixed and they were initially raised to position 1
and left to swing by their own. Unfortunately they lost most of its energy after a
half minute when they were used in two-stage mechanical oscillator. This
behavior caused great debate about energy balance of the machine and
possibility of using gravity energy as a fuel. Author also has seen several
scientific works with a claim that machine can not create energy surplus.
However, all of them had serious error concerning description of total energy of
the system

It already has been said that pendulum with fixed point can swing over two
hours and that the same pendulum in two-stage oscillator was able to move lever
with mass m only for half a minute. To extend pendulum swinging for only couple
of minutes would create significant over unity behavior of the oscillator.

///  Red

Offline Zeitmaschine

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It already has been said that pendulum with fixed point can swing over two hours and that the same pendulum in two-stage oscillator was able to move lever with mass m only for half a minute.

But why? Because a wrong moving lever slowed down the pendulum unnecessarily, or because of a fundamental error in the theory?

Excerpt from the same reading:

»Energy can flow only between two poles with different potential. In order to have different potential the poles can not be in constant field of tension like conservative field. Because gravity field on surface of the planet has constant magnitude the difference must be artificially created. Because nobody yet found any physical material to serve as gravity shield, like iron plate against magnetic field, the only way left is to create similar effect. Alternative pull and relaxation of Centrifugal force in pivot point of the pendulum is one way to create similar effect as gravity shield.«

So, does this gravity shield effect work or does it not (when applied correctly)?

2.. The video is taken from a complete wrong angle to show impact of pivot movement on the swing (why didn't he take that shot perpendicular, I would guess as a technical person he would be attentive to that ), so I do not give it much accuracy value ( I would NOT use it as evidence)

I would estimate the movement of the pivot in that video roughly 10 mm. Since the pendulum pulls down the pivot twice during each cycle (from max. right to max. left back to max. right), that should move down the return point roughly 20 mm. But I can't see this happen. According to your theory, the return point of the bob should be lower each time by the distance the pivot moves, and this in addition to the already present friction losses. Sorry, can't see it in the video.

BTW: I linked that PDF (and many more) already here. Maybe reading it would be a nice idea. :)

I am not sure why we are trying to re-invent the wheel,  Some existing reading material attached
See attached pdf :  Jovan_Marjanovic_Secret_of_Free_Energy_from_Pendulum
I found this on Milkovic website :  http://www.veljkomilkovic.com/OscilacijeEng.html

And that does now mean what? The centrifugal force is the source of overunity? Then this is why I keep asking about the equivalent of centrifugal force in an electric circuit.

Anyway, we are trying to re-invent the (Bessler) wheel, that's for sure.  8)


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Offline Zeitmaschine

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Supplement:

What about the inertia? When the lever moves there is a delay due to its inertial mass. This is also true when the bob of the pendulum moves. But the inertia of the lever's mass effects the up and the down movement equally, whereas the inertia of the bob's mass is greater when it swings through the vertical position and it is smaller (or not existent at all?) when the bob is in its weightless state. On the other hand, the centrifugal force compensates the greater inertia of the bob in vertical position. That could mean, moving up the pivot (because gravity pulls down its opposite side) is related with less inertia (lever mass only), moving down the pivot (because gravity pulls down the bob and the lever) is related with more inertia (lever and bob mass), but the latter is assisted by the centrifugal force. How do we calculate that?


Offline Red_Sunset

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Supplement:

What about the inertia? When the lever moves there is a delay due to its inertial mass. This is also true when the bob of the pendulum moves. But the inertia of the lever's mass effects the up and the down movement equally, whereas the inertia of the bob's mass is greater when it swings through the vertical position and it is smaller (or not existent at all?) when the bob is in its weightless state. On the other hand, the centrifugal force compensates the greater inertia of the bob in vertical position. That could mean, moving up the pivot (because gravity pulls down its opposite side) is related with less inertia (lever mass only), moving down the pivot (because gravity pulls down the bob and the lever) is related with more inertia (lever and bob mass), but the latter is assisted by the centrifugal force. How do we calculate that?

Zeit,
I am not able to clearly understand your discussion posted (aim, purpose, benefit).
 "the centrifugal force compensates the greater inertia of the bob in vertical position"
 " moving down the pivot (because gravity pulls down the bob and the lever) is related with more inertia (lever and bob mass)"

Inertia is similar to Lenz,  it is the resistance to change
Centrifugal force is also a resistance force that resists a mass to follow a circular path
Centripetal force is the counterpart of centrifugal that makes the mass follow a circular path
For calculation formulas & explanations,  hyperphysics is well laid out and easy to find things to refesh the forgotten details

Red

Offline Zeitmaschine

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I am not able to clearly understand your discussion posted (aim, purpose, benefit).

The inertia will delay the movement of the lever. So the lever can't move instantaneously when the pendulum is on its exact vertical position. What could that imply?

Inertia is similar to Lenz,  it is the resistance to change

Inertia (or the lack of it) is very interesting  - not to say odd - in an electric circuit. When the secondary coil of a transformer (as mentioned earlier) is not closed, then there is only voltage but no current. But nevertheless to get that voltage, the electrons have to move in the wire - driven by the magnetic field - from one side to the other (at 50Hz), a) without resistance (the wire does not heat up) and b) without creating any Lenz effect. When we want alternating voltage there must be a current (movement) of electrons to get the alternating potential difference, and at the same time there can't be a current, because of the open circuit.

Strange, isn't it? :o

For calculation formulas & explanations,  hyperphysics is well laid out and easy to find things to refesh the forgotten details

There are valid scientific calculation formulas for that pendulum-lever device?

Anyway, this just crossed my mind (to give some variety here):

Crystal radios work because the human ear can detect pressure variations of 1E-9 BAR.  It does not take a lot of power to make sound that is audible in headphones.

Then why is it, that wireless headphones always work on battery power? When the tiniest amount of power is required to make sound that is audible in headphones, then it should be possible to get this power easily from the transmitting device (no more than some meters away instead of miles), regardless whether it works by radio waves or infrared.

Just wondering ...  ???

Offline Red_Sunset

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The inertia will delay the movement of the lever. So the lever can't move instantaneously when the pendulum is on its exact vertical position. What could that imply?

Inertia (or the lack of it) is very interesting  - not to say odd - in an electric circuit. When the secondary coil of a transformer (as mentioned earlier) is not closed, then there is only voltage but no current. But nevertheless to get that voltage, the electrons have to move in the wire - driven by the magnetic field - from one side to the other (at 50Hz), a) without resistance (the wire does not heat up) and b) without creating any Lenz effect. When we want alternating voltage there must be a current (movement) of electrons to get the alternating potential difference, and at the same time there can't be a current, because of the open circuit.

Strange, isn't it? :o

There are valid scientific calculation formulas for that pendulum-lever device?

Anyway, this just crossed my mind (to give some variety here):

Then why is it, that wireless headphones always work on battery power? When the tiniest amount of power is required to make sound that is audible in headphones, then it should be possible to get this power easily from the transmitting device (no more than some meters away instead of miles), regardless whether it works by radio waves or infrared.

Just wondering ...  ???

Zeit,
So said that the lever can't move instantaneously when the pendulum is on its exact vertical position. If it can not move instantaneous, it would then take a defined time period to move.

Inertia in an electric circuit is prevalent,  Inductance is your prime example of inertia,  odd..?? no, not in a symmetrical universe

Your statement  //   "To get that voltage, the electrons have to move in the wire - driven by the magnetic field - from one side to the other.  When we want alternating voltage there must be a current (movement) of electrons to get the alternating potential difference, and at the same time there can't be a current, because of the open circuit."  //

This no longer the correct understanding om how to see current (e.g. electron flow).   
To help your understanding, think about the Tsunami that occurred near Indonesia some years ago. The tsunami wave impacted India, Sri Lanka and Africa many hours later.  It traveled at over 100km/hour
No water was transferred or moved between Indonesia and India .  It was a pressure wave that traveled the distance,  electricity behavior has a similar property.

A few 1000Amps in the overhead power line, only results in a lot of agitated electrons under duress from the tension pumped from the generator. The generator is not a pump the fullest term (as compared to a waterpump),  it is more like a pressure pump.
There is a pressure flow being transferred between generator and load.  Actual movement of electrons is very limited in a conductor.

If you want to work out a specific problem, there are many valid scientific calculation formulas for that pendulum-lever device.

Wireless headphones always work on battery power,   Especially if you want to turn up the volume.   The radio configuration you are referring to is only suitable for a low freq receiver (AM ~ 1Mhz) with very limited selectivity.   The earpiece loads the tuning coil and therefore reduces the selectivity, increasing the bandwidth, it needs a long wire antenna to get some reasonable signal for a low level audio signal from a nearby transmitter using KW's of power
To make that configuration work on higher frequency as used today would be close to impossible.

Red

 

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