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Author Topic: Big try at gravity wheel  (Read 716178 times)

Red_Sunset

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #345 on: January 17, 2014, 12:35:35 PM »
..............................................................
Of course if the logic is sound then we don't need an experiment, do we.
We don't need experiments to show that the square on the hypotenuse is equal to the sum of the squares on other two sides, do we.
.....................................................................
If experiment fails to confirm the many cheerful facts .................................................
................................................   
Mon cher ami, en face de la mer en angleterre,

Do not fear, there is no avoiding the inevitable meeting encounter with your maker.
Rice pudding with silver spoons await you when you pass his test. 
For sure, ... high risk, high return.  Although do not be intimidated, your imagination can be your greatest friend but unfortunately also your worst enemy.
If you want to cross the water, you need first to take the plunge.

MarkE does deserve a simple answer for his simple question.

Greetings, Red_Sunset

Grimer

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #346 on: January 17, 2014, 01:51:50 PM »
...
MarkE does deserve a simple answer for his simple question.
...


I thought I'd given it.


OK - I'll spell it out.


I can see no objection to his experimental proposal and I wish him the best of British luck.


But just as people on blogs point out that they are not giving financial advice to avoid
getting sued if things go Pete Tong so I should warn everybody that I have near zero
experimental experience and my view on such matters is virtually worthless.


During Elec Lab at Uni the meter on some part of the motor was winding its pointer around the stop.
So I disconnected it intending to connect it the right way round.
The motor (it was a big one) started to accelerate.


The face of the lecturer in charge of the proceeding went white and he
leapt for the controlling handle. When all the panic was over he eplained that my disconnection
had led to the motor accelerating to destruction.


After that the only thing I was allowed to handle was the small thingee one holds on the end of
the shaft to determine rpm.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2014, 05:39:07 PM by Grimer »

MarkE

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #347 on: January 17, 2014, 03:29:20 PM »
Grimer, I have not proposed an experiment yet.  I am waiting for you to confirm that I have stated your hypothesis correctly, or for you to make any needed changes to the stated hypothesis so that it accurately reflects your ideas:

1) The cycloid pendulum potential energy at its apogee contains only gravitational potential energy with all gravitational force operating normal to the horizon.
2) A circular path pendulum with a vertical length arm of y1 and bob mass m1 has at its apogee additional "third derivative energy" over and above the potential energy as an otherwise identical cycloid pendulum has.
3) A hybrid pendulum with vertical length arm of y1 and bob mass m1 that follows a circular path on one side of its travel and a cycloid path on the other half of its travel will convert the additional "third derivative energy" of the circular path half to additional gravitational potential energy observable as a higher apogee on the cycloid side than the circular side.


minnie

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #348 on: January 17, 2014, 11:41:43 PM »
Hi,
   we're obviously expecting our bob to end up higher than it was at the start point.
My question is: where will the bob be relevant to the pivot point, will the radius be
shorter than that of the original pendulum?
                                 John.


MarkE

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #349 on: January 18, 2014, 12:41:28 AM »
Hi,
   we're obviously expecting our bob to end up higher than it was at the start point.
My question is: where will the bob be relevant to the pivot point, will the radius be
shorter than that of the original pendulum?
                                 John.
Minnie for a given arm length, the cycloid pendulum extends less to the left or right at its apogee than a circular pendulum with the same arm length.  The arm has to flex around the cycloid barrier so the arm does not follow a straight radial line from the pivot to the bob at either the left or right apogee.  That means that if you draw a radial line from the pivot through the center of the bob at either apogee that radial line is shorter for the cycloid than it is for the circular pendulum.

Red_Sunset

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #350 on: January 18, 2014, 12:51:41 AM »
Hi,      we're obviously expecting our bob to end up higher than it was at the start point.
My question is: where will the bob be relevant to the pivot point, will the radius be
shorter than that of the original pendulum?                                   John.
Hi John,  "will the radius be shorter than that of the original pendulum? " I would say so, yes 
I came to a similar conclusion, the cycloid curve alteration as compared to the circle curve,  is a shortening of radius.  (I saw after posting that MarkE confirmed the same)
I need to work on a picture to show that more descriptively.

In the mean time, some thoughts on the cycloid/circular pendulum
Below are some assorted ramblings, assumptions, reasoning sequences as related to Grimer’s theory & MarkE summary in very plain English.  Comments, additions, alternate views are very welcome.

Swing Radius
1.. The radius utilized by the bob in a circular path remains the same throughout the swing
2..  The radius utilized by a cycloid path can be approximated to a progressively shortening swing radius as the bob approaches it apogee, 

The Period
The swing radius is the main property that determines the period of a pendulum

Inertia
The inertia possessed by the bob is influenced mainly by the swing radius of the pendulum rather than the swing angle.
1.. A circular path having a constant radius will therefore have a constant inertia.
2.. A cycloid path having an effective changing radius would therefore have a changing inertial profile.

Path
The arc distance of the cycloid path is shorter than the circular path

Force/Distance/Energy
The force-distance of an arc path (radian path) can be translated to a torque profile.
1... The circular path torque profile follows a cos pattern since its radius is constant
2..  The cycloid path torque profile follows a reduced ~cos pattern due to a changing reducing radius at its apogee. Its initial torque profile is reduced proportionately to its reduced swing radius. Its radius lever component increasing as it separates from the cycloid template former, when at the same time the force is reducing at a cosine rate.

The crux of our interest is how we can reconcile the PE (vertical height drop) of the bob to be different between a circular and cycloid path.

It has been theorized that the inertial energy (torque profile) acquired by a cycloid path bob is less as compared to a circular path bob when released from the same height.

It has been theorized that the inertial energy (torque profile) acquired by a circular descend path bob is greater than the energy required in a cycloid ascent path to the same height (the exit height attained by the bob is higher than the entry height).

Provisional conclusion
This theorized observation leads us to believe that the proportional reduction of radius lever in the cycloid swing account for the difference of energy.   
Possible ??  The definition of different flavors/harmonics of energy is a step in the right direction ?

Open to any comment,  Red_Sunset


MarkE

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #351 on: January 18, 2014, 01:52:38 AM »
A cycloid pendulum with a free arm length Y1 has a shorter period than a circular pendulum with the same free arm length Y1.  An ideal cycloid pendulum's period does not vary with peak swing angle, whereas the period of an ideal circular pendulum's period changes with peak swing angle.

I am waiting on Grimer to either confirm that my statement of his hypothesis is accurate, or to make any needed corrections.  A test cannot be designed until the hypothesis is explicitly understood.  Some other clarifications will also be needed such as a formula that describes the excess "third derivative energy" that Grimer contends is stored by the circular pendulum.  The reason that we need the formula is that all experiments have finite uncertainties and we need to insure that in any test the magnitude of the this extra energy that we are looking for will be big enough that it will not get buried in the experiment uncertainty.


Grimer

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #352 on: January 18, 2014, 07:57:57 AM »


Hi,
   we're obviously expecting our bob to end up higher than it was at the start point.
My question is: where will the bob be relevant to the pivot point, will the radius be
shorter than that of the original pendulum?
                                 John.


If you go to the figure at the bottom of page 16 of this thread you will see that the pendulum
wraps itself around the chop (link below shows what a chop is).
http://www.antique-horology.org/piggott/rh/images/81v_cycloid.pdf


You will see that the pendulum is bent into a curve so obviously the bob is nearer to the original
pivot at its apogee that it was at its nadir.


You will notice I wrote the "original pivot". The pivot for the straight line section is changing. This
means we have introduced an new variable, length of pendulum shaft, into our system.


We now have three variables, NG, EG and L, the length of the shaft.


Three variable systems have the potential of transducing motion from one scale to another.


The most familiar example is the Carnot Cycle where the three variables
are volume, pressure and temperature. Motion is transmitted from the very lowest scale of temperature to the engineering scale of volume
(rotation of the pistons crankshaft) via the intermediate variable of pressure which shuttles back and forth between the two.


A less familiar example is the WhipMag Cycle where motion is transmitted from the small magnet Al spins up with his thumb to the large wheel with many magnets arranged around the radii. An example which shows the the magnetic field is not conservative.


Though why on earth nobody found this out befor Al is beyond my comprehension since we already have the magnetic refrigeration
analogue of the inverse Carnot Cycle (see diagram below).




Grimer

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #353 on: January 18, 2014, 09:16:50 AM »
I forgot to attach my card.

minnie

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #354 on: January 18, 2014, 10:59:47 AM »
Hi Grimer,
             loved the antique horology thing. I must admit I'm well out of my depth but am
enjoying this all the same.
     What I wanted to know was if you could build on the increase in height by reversing
the cycle. My feeling is that if the bob ends up nearer to the pivot point you could not.
   One thing that I have discovered through this topic is that is that Newton was a very
clever man.
               Thank you John.

MarkE

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #355 on: January 18, 2014, 02:42:41 PM »
Grimer, I am still waiting for you to either confirm or correct my statement of your hypothesis.  Here it is again for your convenience:

1) The cycloid pendulum potential energy at its apogee contains only gravitational potential energy with all gravitational force operating normal to the horizon.
2) A circular path pendulum with a vertical length arm of y1 and bob mass m1 has at its apogee additional "third derivative energy" over and above the potential energy as an otherwise identical cycloid pendulum has.
3) A hybrid pendulum with vertical length arm of y1 and bob mass m1 that follows a circular path on one side of its travel and a cycloid path on the other half of its travel will convert the additional "third derivative energy" of the circular path half to additional gravitational potential energy observable as a higher apogee on the cycloid side than the circular side.

Grimer

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #356 on: January 18, 2014, 05:25:48 PM »
[/font]Hi Grimer,             loved the antique horology thing. I must admit I'm well out of my depth but amenjoying this all the same.     What I wanted to know was if you could build on the increase in height by reversingthe cycle. My feeling is that if the bob ends up nearer to the pivot point you could not.   One thing that I have discovered through this topic is that is that Newton was a veryclever man.               Thank you John.
[/font]

Clever indeed - especially with regard to action at a distance.


Below is a post from BesslerWheel.com on this topic.


===============================================================


Quote from: Grimer
Quote from: rlortie
If you will excuse me, and bear with me, I have some frustration that needs venting.


Gravity is the attraction of masses ...
No it isn't - and Newton thought the idea of attraction was daft. I don't have his quote to hand but it has been given more than once in these forums.


.......


Edit: Found it -


"The most amazing thing I (Tom Van Flandern) was taught as a graduate student of celestial mechanics at Yale in the 1960s was that all gravitational interactions between bodies in all dynamical systems had to be taken as instantaneous.


This seemed unacceptable on two counts.


In the first place, it seemed to be a form of action at a distance.


Perhaps no one has so elegantly expressed the objection to such a concept better than Sir Isaac Newton:


 "That one body may act upon another at a distance through a vacuum, without the mediation of any thing else, by and through which their action and force may be conveyed from one to the other, is to me so great an absurdity, that I believe no man who has in philosophical matters a competent faculty of thinking, can ever fall into it.” (See Hoffman, 1983.) But mediation requires propagation, and finite bodies should be incapable of propagation at infinite speeds since that would require infinite energy. So instantaneous gravity seemed to have an element of magic to it'".


===============================================================


Grimer

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #357 on: January 18, 2014, 05:53:07 PM »
An excellent book on Newton and his contemporaries which everyone interested in gravity research should read is:

The Sleepwalkers: A History of Man's Changing Vision of the Universeby Arthur Koestler
It's available in paperback from Amazon.
http://www.amazon.com/The-Sleepwalkers-History-Changing-Universe/dp/0140192468



Grimer

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #358 on: January 18, 2014, 06:22:56 PM »
...
What I wanted to know was if you could build on the increase in height by reversing
the cycle.
...


Of course you could but it would be rather a fiddly process.


Below is a diagram I posted on BesslerWheel.com last October.


One would need a series of pendulums ready at each arrival station ready to take the bob up against the gravity gradient. It would be hopelessly impractical for generating energy though, obviously.

MarkE

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #359 on: January 18, 2014, 08:10:24 PM »
Grimer, are you ever going to confirm or correct the statement of your hypothesis?  Do you want your hypothesis tested or not?