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Author Topic: Big try at gravity wheel  (Read 716193 times)

Grimer

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #300 on: January 15, 2014, 06:33:39 AM »
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycloid


I know E.O. need visual aids so here's one for the Cycloid.  ;)

Marsing

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #301 on: January 15, 2014, 06:48:18 AM »

no motion ?



MarkE

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #302 on: January 15, 2014, 06:52:09 AM »
Marsing, if Grimer is correct in his ideas that gravity is non-conservative then exploiting that would change the world.  In that case every day that we waste without proving it and getting it out there is a day that people suffer needlessly. 

@Grimer, I am glad you are ready.  Please address my question so that people can get to work on experiment designs:  What limiting conditions are sufficient to get non-conservative behavior from a gravitational field?   If you offer that a cycloid pendulum or some device derived from a cycloid pendulum is enough, then where is the energy gain or loss due to the non-conservative field seen:  a) At the bottom of the travel as KE?  b) At the top of the travel as PE?  or c) Somewhere along the travel as combined KE and PE?



Grimer

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #303 on: January 15, 2014, 06:57:29 AM »
I've modified it with a link. The blasted website doesn't seem to like animated gifs.


Did you know that if you watch that image of Bessler long enough he moves his eyes and sticks out his tongue. That gif seems to work. I dunno why mine didn't. And I don't know how to cancel the first of those images which is now superfluous.


More follows after I've said the Angelus, had a kip and taken the kids to school.

Marsing

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #304 on: January 15, 2014, 07:03:05 AM »
 OK ..

next

Marsing

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #305 on: January 15, 2014, 07:07:47 AM »
 i thought that image want to say something to all of us

lol

Marsing

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #306 on: January 15, 2014, 07:19:41 AM »
I dunno why mine didn't.

maybe ..
the file too big or file corrupt,
first try preview with explorer to ensure your file is Ok

i guest you have 1 hour to modify it, 
while modifing, clear checkbox above browse button and attach new one)

MarkE

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #307 on: January 15, 2014, 07:22:44 AM »
Grimer, if this involves cycloid pendulums or their parts perhaps I can save some time.

Suppose that we construct a pendulum that has a cycloid restriction on both sides.  The pendulum swings in Quadrant III on the left and Quadrant IV on the right.  We can test that pendulum and determine:

It's oscillation frequency: Fosc, velocity at the bottom of its travel:  Vmax, swing height: Hdelta, and the apogee: Hmax.

We can also observe as has been observed since the time of Huygens that absent friction, the cycloid pendulum is truly isochronous, where as circular swing pendulums even in the absence of friction are not quite isochronous.

Then suppose that we remove the cycloid restriction from the right hand side: Quadrant IV.  What we will find is that:

1) Fosc decreases slightly:  The time swinging in Quadrant IV is greater than the time swinging in Quadrant III.
2) The pendulum becomes slightly non-isochronous.  Different starting heights yield slightly different oscillation periods.
3) The swing height change Hdelta on the right in Quadrant IV is the same as the swing height in Quadrant III.  The change in PE is the same.
4) The velocity magnitude at the bottom of the swing going from Quadrant III to Quadrant IV is identical to that going from Quadrant IV to Quadrant III.  The KE peak magnitudes are the same.

You can prove all of this to your own satisfaction by doing the calculus.  If you object then please show an appropriate reference and/or the math.  The important points we need to agree on in order to resolve the energy are points 3) and 4).

In short what all of this means is that basically the path taken between two equipotential points in a gravitational field doesn't gain or lose energy.  It also means that any closed path taken in a gravitational field doesn't gain or lose energy.  In other words:  the gravitational field is conservative.

Grimer

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #308 on: January 15, 2014, 07:42:36 AM »
Spock 1


Back later.

Marsing

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #309 on: January 15, 2014, 07:56:55 AM »
Marsing, if Grimer is correct in his ideas that gravity is non-conservative then exploiting that would change the world.  In that case every day that we waste without proving it and getting it out there is a day that people suffer needlessly. 


changing the world have two directions.
people will be more suffer , people will be  better.
( people :=  who are really,  really, really  suffer at this time).
which one your direction?
you asked  grimer hardly to prove his theory,
now can you prove your  position.

MarkE

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #310 on: January 15, 2014, 08:14:56 AM »
Marsing, it is very difficult sometimes to parse your English.  If Grimer is onto something then I think that accelerating proving that is a good idea.  That can only be done if Grimer says what his idea is.

So far as I can presently tell, he is arguing that the amount of gravitational energy change between two heights depends on the path taken between those points.  We can easily construct experiments with pendula or marbles rolling on smooth 'U' shaped tracks with different slopes that dispute such an idea.  Those types of experiments won't help if Grimer is right.  What I need from Grimer is statement of some special limitation that has not been previously tested and shown to act conservatively.  Then we can design an experiment that if it does show a difference in energy will disprove that gravity is conservative.

Grimer

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #311 on: January 15, 2014, 08:18:58 AM »
Marsing, it is very difficult sometimes to parse your English.  If Grimer is onto something then I think that accelerating proving that is a good idea.  That can only be done if Grimer says what his idea is.

So far as I can presently tell, he is arguing that the amount of gravitational energy change between two heights depends on the path taken between those points.
The amount of gravitational energy in the drop is the same. It's the amount of Ersatz that's different. The dancer is doing more work pulling her arms in.


CAN'T YOU SEE THAT!!!!

MarkE

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #312 on: January 15, 2014, 08:25:17 AM »
The amount of gravitational energy in the drop is the same. It's the amount of Ersatz that's different. The dancer is doing more work pulling her arms in.


CAN'T YOU SEE THAT!!!!
Grimer do we agree on my bullet points 3) and 4):

3) The swing height change Hdelta on the right in Quadrant IV is the same as the swing height in Quadrant III.  The change in PE is the same.
4) The velocity magnitude at the bottom of the swing going from Quadrant III to Quadrant IV is identical to that going from Quadrant IV to Quadrant III.  The KE peak magnitudes are the same.

Work is the dot product of displacement against force.  Displacement normal to force does no work.

Grimer

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #313 on: January 15, 2014, 08:38:15 AM »
You can stick your bullet points where the sun don't shine.




I asked a question. Answer it.

Marsing

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #314 on: January 15, 2014, 08:55:03 AM »
I think that accelerating proving that is a good idea.

 some will think different