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Author Topic: Big try at gravity wheel  (Read 588256 times)

Offline nfeijo

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #120 on: December 03, 2013, 09:30:13 PM »

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #120 on: December 03, 2013, 09:30:13 PM »

Offline Red_Sunset

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #121 on: December 03, 2013, 09:50:52 PM »
The Roberval balance.

http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/museum/roberval.htm

Nfeijo, It ain't over till the fat lady sings.
<<Expression meaning>> It means that one should not presume to know the outcome of an event which is still in progress. More specifically, the phrase is used when a situation is (or appears to be) nearing its conclusion. It cautions against assuming that the current state of an event is irreversible and clearly determines how or when the event will end.

Offline minnie

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #122 on: December 04, 2013, 09:47:26 AM »
Hi,
    if you want to know about asymmetry ask Wayne Travis-he knows! Good advice from
Sunset somewhere in the past.
   I find this machine intriguing, are those photos for real?
 One of the things I don't get in cases like this is the sheer size. A bench top model
would be worth just as much.
   Look at Rossi's megawatt, James Kwok's Hidro, Travis's thingy and the Newman
machine, none of them seem to do anything.
   I was comparing these gravity things to a water wheel but I see one big difference
the water wheel is able to exhaust the water at little cost whereas this machine
would have to halt the drop of the weight then raise it again at considerable cost
            John

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #122 on: December 04, 2013, 09:47:26 AM »
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Offline Red_Sunset

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #123 on: December 04, 2013, 03:06:38 PM »
New view - new pointer/discovery,

I am on the way out, and do have not much time now for more details,  but just a quick one to share.
The working view is changing, I didn't pay much attention to the weights used, expecting this not to be important. What I did observe and found puzzling was why the weight bars were hinged on the extreme left of the photos shown, it was also here, in this area were a lot of changes/modifications were taking place over the past months.

The reason is that the weights are on a balance bar, this balance is disturbed by the the weight lever and some supporting mechanism at a specific time (The weights are mounted telecopic on the bar, so the balance of the bar can be changed.  We can assume that the objective is to have heavy weights in the  downward 1/2 cycle and restoration of balance on the way up 1/2 cycle.
If interested, have a good look there, focus to look is attached. Observe in the drawing that not all bar are the same length, they are telescopic.

Regards, Red_Sunset

Offline Red_Sunset

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #124 on: December 05, 2013, 07:17:42 PM »
Having had a chance to have a closer look into the mechanism of the gravity engine, confirmed my initial deduction that the principle working of the engine had no relationship to a Roberval & lever force mechanism as a force differentiator (although the roberval still performs a one sided and characteristic function )  .

The working principle is dependent on the ability of the mechanism to create a near neutral balance weight bar during the upstroke. At top dead center, an imbalance is triggered. The weight beam extends and the counter weight effect is removed by resting on the floor (as seen on the left side in the photo’s).
This combined effect applies the total weight as a load to the Roberval and onward to the crankshaft resulting in rotation.
At the bottom dead center, the beam returned to horizontal and the weight beam has shortened to it minimum size by telescopic action, regaining its near balance equilibrium.

This methodology is standard lift & drop of a weight, to create energy by using gravitational force of the weight on the downward stroke, and uses a counter balance to reduce the upward stroke energy.

The system incorporates a trigger mechanism to initiate the sequencing at predetermined points in the cycle.  The photo’s show several changes in the design to be able to get the sequencing and efficient working correct.
A good selection of pictures,drawings, patent are provided on the RAR website to supplement understanding.

Regards, Red_Sunset

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #124 on: December 05, 2013, 07:17:42 PM »
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Offline tim123

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #125 on: December 05, 2013, 08:35:31 PM »
Hi Red_Sunset :)
  I'm glad I invested in the meccano... I bought a job lot on ebay a few years ago, and it has served me well.

It's often easier to build things than to simulate them. I appreciate you taking the time to do the drawings. It has clearly helped you further your understanding, and if you think you know another way it might work, let us know...

I'm beginning to seriously wonder if the guy built the machine without prototyping it. It did go thru a load of modifications, and all the 'tweaks' they've added - well... Were they to improve output, or were they hacks to try and get it to work?

The fact he's building another tells us nothing at this stage. Until #1 is running and proven... I'm still mystified.  :-\

Offline Red_Sunset

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #126 on: December 05, 2013, 08:51:41 PM »
Ribeiro Patent Application text
[0046] The force of gravity exerted over the weight is trans ferred to the assembly through the central shaft. This shaft, depending on where the locks are exercising the support, if they are on the positive or neutral arms and when, transfer more or less force to the blue bar. This in turn transfers the force to the crankshaft arm that is transferred to the crankshaft where the torque is applied.

Can this statement be true?

The positive bars are the horizontal arms and the neutral bar is the vertical arm of the 1/2 Roberval.    The central shaft is the hinge at the bottom of the vertical roberval bar.
The overall total weight (roberval + Triange weight bar + weight hanged) is supported by the blue bar that connects to the crankshaft. The weight would be a vertical down force.

Question: How can this weight change depending on how the weight triangle connects to the roberval?  by means of the arc locks.

We do have an horizontal force imposed by the arc lock on the blue connecting rod to the crankshaft, this force when in the same direction than rotation would aid rotation. But to my observation, it would be counter for 1/4 turn and then aid for a 1/4 rotation (this is approx), so not sure if this could be the essence of the statement

Any idea’s ?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #126 on: December 05, 2013, 08:51:41 PM »
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Offline Red_Sunset

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #127 on: December 05, 2013, 09:02:41 PM »
The fact he's building another tells us nothing at this stage. Until #1 is running and proven... I'm still mystified.  :-\

Tim,
Do keep in mind, the objective of what the guy is building is to get orders. He is in business to make money.  I don't think he is still trying to prove anything, only to get a good working demonstration going.

So long you have a good sound principle, the rest is just a matter of engineering.

From what I can deduct, he has done his homework.  Sure there are always newer and better idea's that come along. What I think he is doing is trying to improve the energy density. This will in the end determine the investment cost per energy unit. And make the system more attractive.

The working of the system should be clear (apart from some details), from what has been said in previous mails, or isn't?

Regards, Red_Sunset

Offline minnie

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #128 on: December 05, 2013, 11:55:11 PM »
Hi,
     looking at this from the point of view as a mechanical device I would guess that a 20 kw
motor would get it to turn over fairly sedately.
  There would be a massive amount of loss due to friction of bearings and sliders, also if any
speed was obtained inertia would become involved and the thing would soon shake itself
to pieces.
   You would probably need to find a couple of million ft/lbs per minute from somewhere for
it to go by itself. In theory I suppose that as some weights go down they would balance the
ones that are rising. Where the excess would come from is a mystery.
   Where is The Koala when he's needed? Hibernating? I really would like to see a successful
outcome here so I'll keep on watching and hoping!
  From the investment point of view I would guess you could buy a 30 kw genset and run it
a good few years on what this machine would cost to build,house and maintain. I can't see
it running for that long before major problems started.
             John

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #128 on: December 05, 2013, 11:55:11 PM »
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Offline Enstenow

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #129 on: December 06, 2013, 02:30:54 AM »
Hi

Red_Sunset, It is useless to think (reflect) about the system RAR energia.

I still repeat :

The machine does not exist. The workers are false.
All the images are forged. Everything is false




1 ) Supporting evidence :

Official text RAR energia Ltda : << Another similar equipment will be built in the U.S.A. at the Incobrasa Industries Ltd plant, a Company of the group, located in Gilman, IL. >>

Official picture nº 01, June 10th 2013
=> http://rarenergia.com.br/imagem01be.JPG

But...
Update Google Maps by Digital Globe USDA Farm Service Agency, October 02nd, 2013
Official satellite picture : July 09th, 2013

The address of Incobrasa Industries, Ltd : 40°45'46.85"N  88° 0'44.25"W
The green arrow should show the building : Here

That's odd !! :o :o



2) - Supporting evidence :

Ted  Scheuring  of Chicago photographed places on September 13th, 2013

There is no constructed building ( Second picture )

 


Regards, Enstenow ( retired engineer)

Offline Red_Sunset

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #130 on: December 06, 2013, 08:51:04 AM »
Red_Sunset, It is useless to think (reflect) about the system RAR energia.

I still repeat :

The machine does not exist. The workers are false.
All the images are forged. Everything is false

......................
...............................................
Regards, Enstenow ( retired engineer)

Dear Mr Enstenow,
Marvelous investigative report, I am impressed and you may be right or you may be wrong. 
I am not yet in a position to make final judgement (I am still open for more convincing evidence)

With the details presented by you, I have the following concerns,
1..  Going direct to "google earth",  the latest version map available is 14 May 2012.  I do not find the validation of your assumed date of 9-July 2013, your link picture showed also the same date of may 2012, look carefully at he bottom of the map picture.

2.. The picture #2 taken from the main road is not taken in the correct position, see the google map below and the associated pictures from the RARenergia website.   I have marked on the google map from where the pictures would be taken, 
**   Your posted pic#2 shows the low tree line before the building, marked as #1 and #2 on the google view.
**   The pic #7 shows the dirt road from the main rd into the property as seen in the google picture
**   The pic #8 shows the tall building to the right marked as #3 on google
**   The pict #11 shows to the left a building, also seen on the google view but not marked.


3.. In addition, the technical working aspects shown in the pictures and patent application are all within the normal physical domain and are very plausible to work as theorized.  It is clear that several modifications to the machine have taken place that could confuse, but the reasons can be presumed to be the result of normal procedural interactions between designer and construction team.

Your evidence makes a good case but doesn’t make a convincing case because the evidence is not exact enough to support your viewpoint.

Regards, Red_Sunset

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #130 on: December 06, 2013, 08:51:04 AM »
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Offline nfeijo

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #131 on: December 06, 2013, 04:16:16 PM »
Red Sunset, I do not know about the American machine, but the Brazilian one is in Porto Alegre, exactly in the address they say and it looks like what appears in the photo. Nothing fake there. If it works I do not know.

Offline Red_Sunset

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #132 on: December 06, 2013, 06:00:19 PM »
Red Sunset, I do not know about the American machine, but the Brazilian one is in Porto Alegre, exactly in the address they say and it looks like what appears in the photo. Nothing fake there. If it works I do not know.

Nfeijo,
This forum has quite a formidable ability to disprove any invention (most often unsubstantiated ) .
I do not see the equivalent ability to discover the newness presented in an invention.

Both abilities are required in an equal and balanced proportion to advance science.(since we build upon what came before)

It takes time and effort to be thorough and fair, but in return the rewards are plentiful.

Regards, Red_Sunset



Offline nfeijo

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #133 on: December 06, 2013, 08:56:45 PM »
Red Sunset,

Of course in a forum like this you can find all kind of people, believers and skeptics. But in general you find people open to new ideas, by the nature of the forum. I would say most people here tend to believe. But this is a swamp, with few flowers and many crocodiles. I am very curious about this particular invention.

Our friend the retired engineer thinks everything is a hoax. I can not say about the Gilman machine, but the Brazilian one, in Porto Alegre, sure is there, as advertised. I talked with someone, asking to see the machine working. He told me they were busy with demonstrations to prospective customers, he asked me to call in a few months.

I have been working hard trying to find something in this last 13 years, but always in the area of electromagnetics and electronics, never on gravity. I am not saying this is impossible. Who am I to say something is impossible ? As you said, it only ends when the fat lady sings.

I would be very, very happy if Renato Ribeiro had solved this problem of getting cheap energy from gravity. Maybe this would solve the problem of Africa and Third World in general. I have no interest in making money or being famous, but in helping poor people. Renato is so rich that I believe he would make this machine available to the poor.

We studied the patents and we are trying to make a simulation in Working Model, up to now without success.

Best regards,

Ney

Offline Red_Sunset

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #134 on: December 06, 2013, 10:34:58 PM »
..................................................
We studied the patents and we are trying to make a simulation in Working Model, up to now without success.

Best regards,

Ney
Hi Ney,
I know it is a wilderness out there and I do not have really a problem with it, so long they do not move in to closely with a demanding or negative agenda.
When it comes to the Renato's invention, from information seen,  he has 2 principle parts that lead to getting mechanical advantage.
One is described in the patent, and the second one "not shown in the patent" but implemented in the physical demonstration model.  I still need to do clarify some process details used for part2 and do a calculation exercise to quantify the possible gains for each instance.
You said "we are trying to make a simulation in Working Model, up to now without success",  with what part of the modeling don't you have success ?  Perhaps I can help.

Regards, Red_Sunset

 

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