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Author Topic: Big try at gravity wheel  (Read 587887 times)

Offline Red_Sunset

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #105 on: December 02, 2013, 03:46:17 PM »
Hi RedSunset,
  I have a meccano model I built - pictures posted previously - which, I think, replicates the mechanism of one 'piston' of the machine...

It doesn't seem to show any signs of OU. The forces are still symetrical - as I showed in my previous post. But I could be missing something - and I'd be grateful if anyone could suggest anything that might make it work differently.

After playing around with the mechanism - I can't see any obvious way that it could work... I'm quite mystified by the whole proceedings TBH...

Regards
Tim

Tim,

From my viewpoint, you would have too much tolerance in your meccano model, for it to work.  Also you need to understand the working process before or when building, in that way you can apply corrections to the model to bring it within working range as needed. I can not see how you can build something without understanding it first.

The model doesn't need to be built as shown by Ribeiro, it could adopt different shapes,
The only requirement is,
1.. That weight on the downstroke needs to take advantage of a greater lever arm than the horizontal robervall arm length as measured from the vertical fixed pilar. (a leverage arm is an arm that is fixed for the whole length, or at least responds in that way). In this case this is the horizontal robervall arm + the horizontal part of the triangle and the triangle experiences a fixation to the horizontal part of the robervall arm. 
2.. During upstroke the weight only lever is the horizontal robervall arm. The triangle weight becomes incorporated into the total weight and becomes a synonymous part with the vertical arm of the robervall arm.

So we have two different levers applying torque to the rotation shaft (~ 2-1=1 =left-over).   I would imagine it will need a flywheel  to store intermediate energy for smooth running, because 1/2 cycle (rotation) is 2x power and 1/2 is 1x loss( alike to a combustion engine)

The location / position of the crankshaft has also an importance in the Ribeiro design since the pushrod plays a double role in the downstroke to promote 1-rotation and horizontal lever 2-fixation. For the same reason the initial start-up rotation has to be to my assessment counter clockwise (view as per pictures)

Without making a detailed drawing, it is difficult to explain. I would suggest to be clear on the required principle and then have have a good look at the pictures and ask the investigative questions, why, how, where....ect

That is the best I can suggest

Regards, Red_Sunset

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #105 on: December 02, 2013, 03:46:17 PM »

Offline Red_Sunset

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #106 on: December 02, 2013, 04:02:23 PM »
@@ Red_Sunset

I advise other readers to take anything Red_Sunset  says with a very large grain of salt, Wayne Travis and Red_Sunset  have repeatedly failed to prove in scientific terms that they have a working over-unity devise, let alone how to make one work, their history speaks for itself.

Powercat & Tim and others,

If you think you do not like my mungo jumbo, I have no problem to remove my posts and leave you in peace.
Let me know, I can still use the delete option within 24hrs

I just thought you could use a bit of help on Renato Ribeira.

Let me know soonest

Regards, Red_Sunset
 

Offline Grimer

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #107 on: December 02, 2013, 05:05:28 PM »
Powercat & Tim and others,

If you think you do not like my mungo jumbo, I have no problem to remove my posts and leave you in peace.
Let me know, I can still use the delete option within 24hrs

I just thought you could use a bit of help on Renato Ribeira.

Let me know soonest

Regards, Red_Sunset


On no account remove your posts Red Sunset. They make good sense to me.


As Cloud Camper has pointed out on BesslerWheel.com, the Roberval Balance puts strain energy into the balance ties and struts. The beauty of strain energy is that is weighs nothing and one can move it around without it being affected by Newtonian Gravity.


I believe that RAR works. Presumably they will eventually get around to posting up a video of it in action.


I think Stuart Campbell has the right idea about this development.


http://www.pureenergyblog.com/2013/11/25/1928/8502387_rar-energie-posts-photos-of-gilman-illinois-gravity-motor-build-progress/
[color=rgb(69, 129, 185) !important]Stuart Campbell[/color][/font][/size] Moderator[/size] [color=rgba(30, 55, 70, 0.4)] David S[/font][/color]
•[/color] [color=rgba(30, 55, 70, 0.4)]5 days ago[/font][/color]
[color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.498039) !important]−[/size][/font][color=rgba(0, 0, 0, 0.498039) !important][/i][/size][/font][/color][/size][/font][/size][/font][/color][/size][/font]








That's because my thinking is not stuck in a block of concrete. Logic says it won't work.But there are people out there smart enough to say phooey to that and prove anyone wrong.Science is taught specifically to hold people within a square in their thinking. You are taught to think nothing will work, so you move within your limitations of your self imposed square.It's always those who step outside it who make the waves and the future happen.[/font]

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #107 on: December 02, 2013, 05:05:28 PM »
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Offline powercat

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #108 on: December 02, 2013, 05:13:17 PM »
Powercat & Tim and others,

If you think you do not like my mungo jumbo, I have no problem to remove my posts and leave you in peace.
Let me know, I can still use the delete option within 24hrs

I just thought you could use a bit of help on Renato Ribeira.

Let me know soonest

Regards, Red_Sunset

Whether you want to remove your posts or not is entirely your decision, and looking at your previous posting history you will say and do what you want anyway.

Offline powercat

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #109 on: December 02, 2013, 05:22:24 PM »

That's because my thinking is not stuck in a block of concrete. Logic says it won't work.But there are people out there smart enough to say phooey to that and prove anyone wrong.Science is taught specifically to hold people within a square in their thinking. You are taught to think nothing will work, so you move within your limitations of your self imposed square.It's always those who step outside it who make the waves and the future happen.[/font]


That's a very good approach, and one that most people here would agree with, otherwise why would you join an over-unity forum, but making claims that you can achieve over-unity or you know that it works when you can't prove it is not going to help anyone, and given the energy crisis the world is facing we could really do with a genuine solution that actually works and can be proven to work.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #109 on: December 02, 2013, 05:22:24 PM »
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Offline tim123

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #110 on: December 02, 2013, 06:14:05 PM »
The question is,have they achieved the task of automatically and mechanically switching the point of attachment of the two link systems, and will the machine accomplish this task on its own without any external forces aiding the link attachment?
Vince

Hi Vince,
  the shift between the 2 linkages is the problem: In order to transfer the weight from the 'neutral' upright bar, to the 'positive' connecting rod, the full weight (i.e. the weight at the end of the lever) has to be lifted by the crank. (as far as I can tell)

You can do it either at the top, or the bottom of the crank - depending on rotation, but it still has to be done, and it's a big sticky point...

I can not see how you can build something without understanding it first.

This is the essence of all research. You build experiments to better understand things...

Quote from: Red_Sunset
1.. That weight on the downstroke needs to take advantage of a greater lever arm than the horizontal robervall arm length as measured from the vertical fixed pilar.
...
So we have two different levers applying torque to the rotation shaft (~ 2-1=1 =left-over).

Different leverage = different distance moved. It's not as simple as you assert... If you simply have different leverages on the up & down strokes - the weight will end up in a different place at the end of each stroke.

Red_Sunset, if you think you understand the machine, and you think it works - then please show us - build a replica, or post those detailed drawings you mentioned.

Regards
Tim

Offline Red_Sunset

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #111 on: December 02, 2013, 06:37:54 PM »
Quote from: Grimer on Today at 05:05:28 PM
    That's because my thinking is not stuck in a block of concrete. Logic says it won't work.But there are people out there smart enough to say phooey to that and prove anyone wrong.Science is taught specifically to hold people within a square in their thinking. You are taught to think nothing will work, so you move within your limitations of your self imposed square.It's always those who step outside it who make the waves and the future happen.[/font]

That's a very good approach, and one that most people here would agree with, otherwise why would you join an over-unity forum, but making claims that you can achieve over-unity or you know that it works when you can't prove it is not going to help anyone, and given the energy crisis the world is facing we could really do with a genuine solution that actually works and can be proven to work.

Powercat,
Interesting how you state these 2 quotes together and are acknowledged as such. 
I am convinced that NOBODY can be impartial, we are all the product of our upbringing exposure and that will be with us for life in varying degrees.

No matter what proof you seek , A video is no proof, neither a picture or even a physical demonstration can be deceptive, the biggest example demonstration of that fact was 911 & Iraq. 
Proof is in what YOU can figure out, sort deduct, interpret, reach to a logical conclusion, put to the test as truth, compare as facts. But that takes some work.
Keep in mind that Invention is business, an inventor will release information but never innovative details that are key to the invention, not even in a patent, they are always held close to the chest.  When it comes to money, or prospective income, an inventor will do all in its power to safeguard the future of his work and himself and his position in business.

So if you are on this website to receive blue prints with explanations, you are going to have to wait for a very long time.

Regards, Red_Sunset



Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #111 on: December 02, 2013, 06:37:54 PM »
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Offline Red_Sunset

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #112 on: December 02, 2013, 07:13:18 PM »
………………………………………………….
………………………………………
This is the essence of all research. You build experiments to better understand things...

Different leverage = different distance moved. It's not as simple as you assert... If you simply have different leverages on the up & down strokes - the weight will end up in a different place at the end of each stroke.

Red_Sunset, if you think you understand the machine, and you think it works - then please show us - build a replica, or post those detailed drawings you mentioned.

Regards Tim
Tim,
Building carries an initial high risk, that is, a good working design could be considered failed due to bad or incorrect construction.  Knowledge gives you the advantage by enabling you to do troubleshooting. Building when you have the understanding reduces risk.  If you come from the electronics field, this might make more sense than in the mechanical field.

. It's not as simple as you assert... it sure isn’t and I do not want to minimize the effort and tweaks required to make it work. The key is that the distance should not change (much) because otherwise you reach the point of diminishing returns. The method used here is the key innovation of this invention.

Contrary to PowerCat statement, I never claimed or made a OU device. What I do is,  to look closer into analyse smart and creative devices in order to understand the innovative working principles and to stimulate my mind. I do not have any detailed drawings of this system other that quick references to features seen on the photo’s.
Distributed / Personal power generation is going to be the next revolution, so my interest leans in that direction.

Unfortunately that is as far as I can help here. Never expect to understand a concept all in one day. Allow simmering time for an observation to take on shape and relevance, to evolve and mature.
Good luck, remember persistence pays !!
Regards, Red_Sunset

Offline powercat

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #113 on: December 02, 2013, 09:26:03 PM »

Powercat,
Interesting how you state these 2 quotes together and are acknowledged as such. 
I am convinced that NOBODY can be impartial, we are all the product of our upbringing exposure and that will be with us for life in varying degrees.

No matter what proof you seek , A video is no proof, neither a picture or even a physical demonstration can be deceptive, the biggest example demonstration of that fact was 911 & Iraq. 
Proof is in what YOU can figure out, sort deduct, interpret, reach to a logical conclusion, put to the test as truth, compare as facts. But that takes some work.
Keep in mind that Invention is business, an inventor will release information but never innovative details that are key to the invention, not even in a patent, they are always held close to the chest.  When it comes to money, or prospective income, an inventor will do all in its power to safeguard the future of his work and himself and his position in business.

So if you are on this website to receive blue prints with explanations, you are going to have to wait for a very long time.

There are hundreds of thousan of patented inventions that can be replicated and have been scientifically verified, showing how an invention works does not take your rights of ownership away.

[/font]Contrary to PowerCat statement, I never claimed or made a OU device. What I do is,  to look closer into analyse smart and creative devices in order to understand the innovative working principles and to stimulate my mind. I do not have any detailed drawings of this system other that quick references to features seen on the photo’s.Distributed / Personal power generation is going to be the next revolution, so my interest leans in that direction.


Anyone can read your previous posts where you claim Wayne Travis's over-unity device works as claimed, they can also read your numerous posts where you defend Wayne travesties rights to keep back so called information on how the device actually works for commercial reasons, though at that time you and Wayne did intend to have the device scientifically verified by Mark Dansie as long as he signed a NDA to keep certain details of the device private, in the beginning this all seemed quite reasonable but as time went by it became clear what a load of BS yourself and Wayne were talking and that there was never any intention of having the device properly verified by anybody.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #113 on: December 02, 2013, 09:26:03 PM »
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Offline fletcher

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #114 on: December 02, 2013, 09:27:39 PM »
Red .. here is a simple sim of a Roberval system, with lever arm & mass replacing one horizontal member - the lever arm can be latched [square pin joint] to either the vertical strut of the pantograph or the tilting arm to get up & down motion thru imbalance of forces - that is not & has never been in dispute AFAIK - run the sim to see the potential problem - I watch this RAR attempt with interest to see if they have a creative answer to the dilemma.

Offline fletcher

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #115 on: December 03, 2013, 01:04:19 AM »
A thoughtful post by MrVibrating at BW.com re observations on the RAR concept - includes a simple sim.

http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=118005#118005

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #115 on: December 03, 2013, 01:04:19 AM »
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Offline minnie

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #116 on: December 03, 2013, 12:33:46 PM »
Hi,
   I've been looking at the Roverbial balance and irrespective of where you position
the weights on the trays the work done is the same so there is no means of obtaining
any gain.
    The machine in question is quite tiny when considering using gravity as a power
source. Fletcher pointed this out to me when we were discussing using pressure and
fluids. Even if something worked the operating speed would have to be kept so low that
the useful output would be minimal.
                        John

Offline Red_Sunset

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #117 on: December 03, 2013, 02:45:15 PM »
Red .. here is a simple sim of a Roberval system, with lever arm & mass replacing one horizontal member - the lever arm can be latched [square pin joint] to either the vertical strut of the pantograph or the tilting arm to get up & down motion thru imbalance of forces - that is not & has never been in dispute AFAIK - run the sim to see the potential problem - I watch this RAR attempt with interest to see if they have a creative answer to the dilemma.
Gents,
Hi Fletcher, good to hear from you. I spent some (too much) time today creating some pictures to clarify previous postings on the workings of Renato Ribeiro gravity system. Do keep in mind that the drawings only demonstrate the principle to OU used in the invention, NOT the workings of the whole machine as shown in the pictures. When it comes to the whole machine and the modifications done to it, I have also many questions. For example, why is the weight bar hinged and other trip assemblies….ect.
The drawings used are as close as possible to scale to the actual machine build, I overlayed one of the drawings to get the size proportions correct.

In the attached pdf,

Page1: Picture of the limit stops on the center flange (vertical vs crankshaft push rod)
Page2:  Picture of the end stop to fixate the crankshaft push rod to the triangle that holds the weight.
The weight loading creates the lever connection between the crankshaft and the weight.  In this position, the roberval has no other function other than a positioning guide for crankshaft push rod.
Page 3:  Picture of the stop that initiates the working of the roberval, this engages the triangle with the roberval (the lower lever endstop would be disengaged at this point). 
The alignments are made possible by the positioning of the crankshaft, crankshaft push rod and the arc stopper. The weight will always apply a counter clockwise pull on the setup.
Page 4: The model drawing pulled from the official drawing
Page 5:  Five positions are shown during one cycle of the system.
The first 3 show the down ½ cycle and the next 2 show the up cycle.,  shown is also how the system switches from lever mode to roverval mode. There should be enough detail on the pictures and associated text to make it self explanatory.
The approx. OU advantage is the horizontal length of the triangle

Regards, Red_Sunset


Offline Red_Sunset

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #118 on: December 03, 2013, 06:05:22 PM »
Gents,

In an attempt to expand on my previous 5 step process sequence, by adding elementary force vectors to it, I am starting to doubt my initial understanding of work and rotation done here.
Can someone enter this into a simulator to calculate relative force and direction.  The rotational crankshaft seems to change the picture pretty drastically.
Attached is a relative force direction drawing in pdf format

Regards, Red_Sunset

Offline Red_Sunset

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #119 on: December 03, 2013, 08:09:21 PM »
Roberval functionality in RAR

My deduction is changing rapidly on the workings of this gravity engine.
Maybe there is some information missing, but with the info currently information seen, the roberval does not have the functionality initially thought off.
The only function it serves is to allow the triangular extender truss to remain near vertical at all times.
The force generation appears to be by weight, not by lever, so this working concept needs to be re-evaluated
Back to the drawing board.

Regards, Red_Sunset

 

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