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Author Topic: Big try at gravity wheel  (Read 584257 times)

Offline Grimer

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #240 on: January 13, 2014, 01:21:56 PM »
Thanks, Red Sunset. That's the nicest compliment I've ever had for a post.  :)


And extraordinarily magnanimous considering I chewed you off about your
comment on the church. Sorry if I overdid it.  ;)


If you look up cycloid pendulums you will find that attempts have been made
to build them for timekeeping. Unfortunately the practical difficulties were greater
than the theoretical advantages.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #240 on: January 13, 2014, 01:21:56 PM »

Offline Red_Sunset

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #241 on: January 13, 2014, 03:45:21 PM »
Thanks, Red Sunset. That's the nicest compliment I've ever had for a post.  :)

And extraordinarily magnanimous considering I chewed you off about your
comment on the church. Sorry if I overdid it.  ;)
.............................................
No 'thanks' is required,  Grimer ,
We are all human and try to show human behavior, it doesn't always work out as intended
I know "religion" is a sensitive topic at any time, by not following my own advice, your response was rightfully expected., no offense intended nor taken.
Quote
"practical difficulties were greater than the theoretical advantages",
with engineering & technology advancement, is just a matter of time to overcome difficulties, so long the principle is sound.

Red_Sunset

Offline Grimer

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #242 on: January 13, 2014, 04:12:45 PM »
Grimer, if gravity is not conservative, then how do you account for very sensitive and well repeated torsion balance tests where large suspended masses have been shown to attract with forces indistinguishable from G*m1*m2/r^2?
I fear you've failed to follow the argument, Mark.

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #242 on: January 13, 2014, 04:12:45 PM »
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Offline Grimer

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #243 on: January 13, 2014, 05:03:41 PM »

The situation can be understood in terms of Stafford Beer's restatement of Ashby's Law of Requisite Variety .....


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variety_(cybernetics)


..... as "Variety absorbs variety"


Just as a football team of 11 members can always overcome a team of 10 members (assuming equal skills, obviously) so also a higher derivative of motion can always control a lower derivative given the right mechanism.


In the cases of the Bessler, Keenie, Uncle's toy and RAR we have 3rd derivative energy (jerk) overcoming the second derivative energy (acceleration) of Newtonian Gravity.


I have never met Stafford in person but we did correspond and he read some of my stuff. He proposed that we wrote a joint paper. Unfortunately his heart attack intervened and the project had to be shelved. I believe our correspondence is in his archive.


Here is a video of one of his talks on Variety.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDRudRhNgy4

Offline Grimer

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #244 on: January 13, 2014, 05:20:42 PM »
Ain't Google search wonderful. I've actually found it.  8)


==============================================================


CHALLENGE TO PARADIGM, JULY 76 -END 1978 - Box 85 
This project was all about a book which was to be called "Challenge to Paradigm", which was to have several contributors-
 
Martin Canny
Brian Eno
Frank Grimer
Humberto Maturana
Alan Mencher
Charles Scudder
Francisco Varela
 
Not all of these people knew each other and SB kept them in ignorance of the identity of their co-conspirators by using nick -names. The fields covered by the proposed book included - Aesthetics, Anthropology, biology, botany, government, immunology, management, materials science, mathematics, neurophysiology, physiology, psychology, scientific method. The intention was that it would not just be a collection of interesting papers but a continuous narrative that expounded the view that the systems approach really works. "When it works paradigms are over thrown - and that's what constitutes the challenge". The records on this project in the collection are in an orange wallet folder within which the correspondence between Stafford and the other authors has been divided into separate slip files (one for each person), the contents is therefore dealt with in this manner -
 




CHALLENGE TO PARADIGM (letters to Wiley and all participants)
 
* several copies of letter from SB to all “players” dated 24th 
Jan 1978
* original letter setting out the project and the contents as contributed by each author
* letters between SB and James Cameron (Wiley) regarding publication of the book.


==============================================================


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #244 on: January 13, 2014, 05:20:42 PM »
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Offline Marsing

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #245 on: January 13, 2014, 05:31:23 PM »
Marsing could you please point out a working machine that today is powered by gravity in the same sense as Johann Bessler claimed for his various wheels?

wow, your words are so deep.

"working machine that today is powered by gravity"
i got it  as  :=   gravity machine have accepted by whole world  or
                        there are company produce gravity wheel so i can point it out to you. 

sorry markE,    i can not,
beside, bessler is not my start point,
i don't know what exactly his claims,
and i don't want to make false claims.
and i don't know how many variant of his wheel.

well, i feel Good atmosphere here.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #246 on: January 13, 2014, 05:47:39 PM »
One can demonstrate the harnessing of gravity with a flexible pendulum which is allowed to swing freely from about 8 to 6 and wrap around a cycloid barrier from 6 to about 4.


It will be seen that the finishing point of the bob is higher than the starting point. The pendulum has gained gravitational energy.


Of course, to demonstrate this experimentally would require the facilities of a decent laboratory. I doubt that one could do it in  one's garage.


One would require a very flexible thin wire between the support and bob (carbon fibre?) and a vacuum enclosure to eliminate air resistance.


Obviously it would not be a practical device but it would demonstrate the principle and show that the gravity field is not conservative.
Once again, you are wrong, and the experiments have been done over and over for many years. Please see "stopped pendulum" and "galileo's pendulum" in your favorite reference. No matter the shape of the stop, the bob will not rise higher than the initial release.
http://www.uq.edu.au/_School_Science_Lessons/UNPh15.html#15.1.4

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #246 on: January 13, 2014, 05:47:39 PM »
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Offline Grimer

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #247 on: January 13, 2014, 06:19:13 PM »
Once again, you are wrong, and the experiments have been done over and over for many years. Please see "stopped pendulum" and "galileo's pendulum" in your favorite reference. No matter the shape of the stop, the bob will not rise higher than the initial release.
http://www.uq.edu.au/_School_Science_Lessons/UNPh15.html#15.1.4
I think the experiment I described is a bit beyond school science, Setalokin.


If I were you I'd stop digging.

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #248 on: January 13, 2014, 06:35:41 PM »
If you were me your confessor would be scandalized. You are making claims, once again, for which there is no evidence. But contrary evidence abounds. So it behooves you to provide some kind of actual evidence in support, if you want to be taken seriously.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #248 on: January 13, 2014, 06:35:41 PM »
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Offline Grimer

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #249 on: January 13, 2014, 07:16:44 PM »
If I were you, Mr Hyde, I'm sure my confessor would be scandalized.  ;)


As for making up claims for which there is no evidence you should tell Euclid
he can't claim the number of primes is infinite until he's counted them.

Offline Grimer

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #250 on: January 13, 2014, 07:56:01 PM »

By strange coincidence, Beer's brother, Ian Stafford Beer, was headmaster of Harrow School which is only about a mile from my house.


My three granchildren go swimming in their indoor pool on Saturday mornings.


It's a small world.


One's reminded of the six degrees of separation.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_degrees_of_separation

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #250 on: January 13, 2014, 07:56:01 PM »
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Offline Grimer

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #251 on: January 13, 2014, 08:14:01 PM »
By strange coincidence, Beer's brother, Ian Stafford Beer, was headmaster of Harrow School which is only about a mile from my house.


My three granchildren go swimming in their indoor pool on Saturday mornings.


It's a small world.


One's reminded of the six degrees of separation.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six_degrees_of_separation


Edit: LOL - I've even found another link. Stafford left UCL just six years before I joined.

Offline MarkE

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #252 on: January 13, 2014, 10:13:32 PM »
Marsing, I am sorry if I offended you.

wow, your words are so deep.

"working machine that today is powered by gravity"
i got it  as  :=   gravity machine have accepted by whole world  or
                        there are company produce gravity wheel so i can point it out to you. 

sorry markE,    i can not,
beside, bessler is not my start point,
i don't know what exactly his claims,
and i don't want to make false claims.
and i don't know how many variant of his wheel.

well, i feel Good atmosphere here.

Marsing when you said:

Quote
i was also skeptic, skeptic protect us from scam fraud etc..
till i found 99% gravity device do work, ( with simple math).
best word to say, it's EASY

the conservative field theory as a reason to deny existence of these will be obsolete, next you ( all of "conservative field"  MAN) will realize that "conservative field" is not the only one to judge,   
   
sorry for my words, and peace for all

marsing

Since we have been discussing gravity wheels, I thought you meant a Bessler, or Bessler like device was part of those 99% of the working gravity devices you mentioned.   I especially thought this when you declared:  "it's EASY".  Please clarify what sorts of machines are among the 99% of gravity devices that you have found work.  Are any of those devices gravity wheels?

Offline MarkE

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #253 on: January 13, 2014, 10:16:33 PM »
I think the experiment I described is a bit beyond school science, Setalokin.


If I were you I'd stop digging.
Grimer are there any existing, replicated experiments that you can point to that show the gravitational field operating in a non-conservative manner?

Offline fletcher

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Re: Big try at gravity wheel
« Reply #254 on: January 13, 2014, 10:31:54 PM »
Hi Grimer,

Excellent presentation, although I never heard of these pendulum properties before, I learn something new, pretty fast by your logical presentation.

You underscore the exact principle path towards over-unity. The same base logic is employed (or at better phrased at this point "intended") by Renato in its RAR, and Wayne Travis in his ZED, where the energy requirement for the upswing is less than the energy gained in the down swing (or visa versa) in order to obtain a positive output balance.

The engineering challenge is in the transformation/morphing at BDC to switch cycle type and the requirement to execute this transition with minimal energy (less than possible gain), the core inventive property is there.

Well done.

Red_Sunset

Red .. Grimer has been presenting this hypothesis of gain in Pe [i.e. gravity force is not conservative] as fact for quite some time - he has been asked to provide repeatable experimental evidence of his claim both here & over at BW.com - IINM he has never 'produced the goods' - having a theory is one thing, promoting it as a fact or truth is another.

A couple of renowned commentators here have politely pointed out the contradictory evidence to the 'Grimer theory'.

Perhaps I am less quick to accept someone's musing as indisputable fact than you [my failing perhaps ?] & prefer to check facts as best I can before willingly becoming an acolyte - IIRC You-tube has some good experiments with pendulums, in such a manner as Grimer proposes, which do not show a gain in height.

Perhaps Grimer would like to provide his experimental basis for his theory so we can forever retire Gravity as a conservative force  & open the Pandoras box !

 

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