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Author Topic: Exploring the Inductive Resistor Heater  (Read 61842 times)

Offline picowatt

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Re: Exploring the Inductive Resistor Heater
« Reply #45 on: May 03, 2013, 04:57:43 AM »
Greg,

You just have to ask yourself, if only nanoampers of current ever flow thru the gate, why on Earth would a gate driver capable of 9 amps of drive current ever be required?  And when all that current from a gate driver does flow into or out of the gate, where exactly does it go?  There are only two additional terminals on the MOSFET thru which to complete the circuit...

Think about it...   

PW

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Re: Exploring the Inductive Resistor Heater
« Reply #45 on: May 03, 2013, 04:57:43 AM »

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Exploring the Inductive Resistor Heater
« Reply #46 on: May 03, 2013, 08:42:43 AM »
It's pretty clear that Gmeast doesn't have the knowledge of components and how they behave, that one might expect a "free energy" experimenter to have.

Here's a video that I published last July, illustrating in a very simple manner that the gate-drain and gate-source capacitances CAN and DO pass substantial currents, when the mosfet is actually operating in a circuit, or when it's not. This is part of a series of 10 or so videos that severally and individually refute several of the absurd claims that Ainslie makes about mosfets and function generators and circuit behaviour in general, and now I see that they also refute Gmeast's misconceptions about mosfets and how to drive them and what happens when you do.

I think it's completely laughable that he spews his childish insults and lies and misinformation about me, and about PW and others, when he apparently doesn't even understand the basics of circuit performance, circuit measurement, or how a mosfet even works.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzUcx3haZbA


ETA: This series of ten or so "MOSFETs... How Do They Work?" videos was made in an effort to educate Rosemary Ainslie about her own circuit's performance and to illustrate that the absurd claims she made are just that: absurd. (Claims that a function generator can't act as a power source or pass current from an external source from its "probe" to its "terminal" to use her terms; claims like Gmeast's that a mosfet can't pass current when it is "off"; claims that a mosfet is strictly a "switch" and can't act in a linear conductance mode being partially on; misconceptions about the nature of the gate charge that turns a mosfet on and off; and etc.) Ainslie promised long ago to review these videos and refute my demonstrations point by point.... and we are still waiting for those refutations. No doubt I overestimated the level of the pitch.... instead of tenth grade level I should have pitched the demos at sixth grade comprehension level, using little cartoons, fuzzy animal toys and words of single syllables. Then perhaps she could have followed along.
Gmeast, of course, will respond, if at all, with more insults, and will still try to deny the obvious refutation of his absurd "nanoamps" claim.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2013, 04:40:45 PM by TinselKoala »

Offline lanenal

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Re: Exploring the Inductive Resistor Heater
« Reply #47 on: May 03, 2013, 03:27:35 PM »
Greg,

I have reread the above again, and I believe I now understand your method.  It is actually quite brilliant.


However, does this not presuppose that the batteries have the same amp hour rating, and hence draw down characteristics, with a purely resistive load versus a pulsed load? (as per my original concern regarding load profiles versus battery capacity)

As an analogy, suppose you have a flooded lead acid battery on a motorized table that gently rocks the battery so that the electrolyte is being stirred constantly.  A load resistor is applied and the voltage and current is monitored and its draw down from a start and stop voltage is noted over a measured time period.  The same test with the same load is again performed but this time the "stirring table" is turned off.  Would you expect the battery to necessarily measure the same capacity in both tests?

As well, suppose a pulsing desulpator is connected to a lead acid battery driving a resistive load so that sulphate crystals formed during discharge are maintained at a smaller size, and as well, the effects of pulse plating produce a finer grain structure, that is, a greater conductive area, during discharge, so that the battery appears to have a larger amp hour rating than it does when similarly loaded without the desulphator connected.  Would this prove that the desulphator produces overunity or would it only prove that the capacity of a lead acid battery can be increased by pulsing the battery during discharge?

I bring this up because for many years there have been various claims of overunity with pulsed circuits, but for some reason the "overunity" always requires a battery.  And a lead acid battery appears to be, for the most part, the most popular battery chemistry used.

This is why I asked if you had ever attempted to operate your circuit using only a well filtered supply to determine if the circuit itself is truly overunity or if the observed effect is moreso related to the battery having a different capacity under different load profiles.

You say that your circuit will not oscillate when operating from the DC supply.  This could be further investigated by installing a network between the supply and battery that models the measured equivalent series resistance, inductance, and capacitance of your batteries.  If necessary, the supply can be isolated at AC by installing inductors between the supply and network.  Doing so might allow you to operate your circuit from the supply and make your input measurements at DC.  This would assist in determining if the observed OU is due to the operation of the circuit, or moreso, to the increase in battery capacity under a pulsed load profile.


As an aside, you seem to have a certain disdain for modern test equipment regarding the ability of any equipment being able to measure the voltage at SH3 because of its "complex" waveform.  The waveform there is not all that complex nor particularly fast, and direct measurement there, given a very low inductance CSR (due to your use of .05ohms), can be accurately performed.  I believe you stated that you measured the SH3 voltage using both a scope and .99's multimeter approach and had close agreement with both methods.  So why then, do you dismiss that measurement out of hand as inaccurate? 

In any event, as it appears that your input power determined by direct measurement and by use of the drawdown method are in significant disagreement with each other, would you not at least agree that a third method is in order to determine which method of measurement is more accurate?

Thank-you for your patience... us old guy's are slow on the uptake (just wait till you get there!)

PW


Greg has done a great job in his calculations and very honest in his proof.


PW is doubtful and cautious, but he can not show any calculations, so there is no way to assess how significant is the deviation in energy calculation due to the factors listed by him. It could be that the conclusion from Greg's calculation still stands even if those factors are totally ignored.


It seems to me, the "increase in battery capacity under pulsed load" argument is conducing rather than deducing to Greg's calculations, because when a battery is increasing in its capacity while draining in its stored energy, then the voltage drop should be an exaggeration (because there is a bogus voltage drop due to increased capacity without change in stored energy). So under that observation, Greg's calculation of input to the original circuit (a pulsing load) is an exaggeration, and the OU is even more pronounced than what his calculations shows.


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Exploring the Inductive Resistor Heater
« Reply #47 on: May 03, 2013, 03:27:35 PM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Exploring the Inductive Resistor Heater
« Reply #48 on: May 03, 2013, 04:42:22 PM »
(snip)
Gmeast, of course, will respond, if at all, with more insults, and will still try to deny the obvious refutation of his absurd "nanoamps" claim.

So predictable. And so very vile. I think you struck a nerve, there, Picowatt.



Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Exploring the Inductive Resistor Heater
« Reply #49 on: May 03, 2013, 04:48:38 PM »
@lanenal: You do realize that Gmeast is saying that the most current that can pass through a MOSFET gate to the drain or source is 100 nA, right? And that PW has explained from the circuit theory standpoint, and I have illustrated empirically in the video above, that the 100 nA claim is definitely not true for the kind of signal that is being applied to the gate by the gate driver which is capable of supplying 9 amps (if not restricted by the inline resistor.) Right?
Yet you see how he responds. He is refuted time after time but cannot deal with the refutations; instead he says "Fuck them all dead". That is his argument!

Where is the evidence for his paranoid claim that "circuit experts" were contacted by either myself or PW? There is none. We have referred him to the data sheet where the capacitances are clearly cited and we have shown him, or tried to show him, demonstrations and clear explanations. I personally have contacted no one on this issue.... because it is basic to mosfet design and usage. Watch my video and then see if Gmeast has an explanation that jives with his "100 nA" claim!

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Re: Exploring the Inductive Resistor Heater
« Reply #49 on: May 03, 2013, 04:48:38 PM »
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Offline lanenal

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Re: Exploring the Inductive Resistor Heater
« Reply #50 on: May 03, 2013, 04:48:44 PM »
Hi Greg,

I have watched your video, and I have a question for you about the measured voltage drop over SH3 when the circuit is hooked up. Since the voltage should be oscilating, what you measured must be some sort of average voltage, right? Is it RMS? or is it something else?

great job, and thanks for sharing.

lanenal

Offline lanenal

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Re: Exploring the Inductive Resistor Heater
« Reply #51 on: May 03, 2013, 05:10:58 PM »
@lanenal: You do realize that Gmeast is saying that the most current that can pass through a MOSFET gate to the drain or source is 100 nA, right? And that PW has explained from the circuit theory standpoint, and I have illustrated empirically in the video above, that the 100 nA claim is definitely not true for the kind of signal that is being applied to the gate by the gate driver which is capable of supplying 9 amps (if not restricted by the inline resistor.) Right?
Yet you see how he responds. He is refuted time after time but cannot deal with the refutations; instead he says "Fuck them all dead". That is his argument!

@TinselKoala: I am not a judge between you.

Greg in his first post already estimated the maximal energy contribution from the Gate Driver, which seems to be no big deal. As for the Gate current, Greg might be talking about gate leakage current, not the current to induce the voltage difference.

Transistors are gated by currents, while MOSFETS are gated by voltage difference, and to develop voltage difference there is a "hidden cap" (so to speak) at the Gate. The current depends on the frequency, max voltage difference, the current limiting resistor, and the capacity of the hidden cap. The gate leakage current is due to the imperfect insulation inside the "hidden" cap.

regards,

lanenal

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Re: Exploring the Inductive Resistor Heater
« Reply #51 on: May 03, 2013, 05:10:58 PM »
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Offline picowatt

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Re: Exploring the Inductive Resistor Heater
« Reply #52 on: May 03, 2013, 05:41:35 PM »

Greg has done a great job in his calculations and very honest in his proof.


PW is doubtful and cautious, but he can not show any calculations, so there is no way to assess how significant is the deviation in energy calculation due to the factors listed by him. It could be that the conclusion from Greg's calculation still stands even if those factors are totally ignored.


It seems to me, the "increase in battery capacity under pulsed load" argument is conducing rather than deducing to Greg's calculations, because when a battery is increasing in its capacity while draining in its stored energy, then the voltage drop should be an exaggeration (because there is a bogus voltage drop due to increased capacity without change in stored energy). So under that observation, Greg's calculation of input to the original circuit (a pulsing load) is an exaggeration, and the OU is even more pronounced than what his calculations shows.


Lanenal,

I am not sure how you figure that an increase in capacity would somehow cause an exaggeration in Vdrop.  If the capacity of a battery is increased, it will hold a given voltage for a longer period of time under a given load.  There would be no "bogus voltage drop".  The larger capacity would just allow the battery to sustain a given load for a longer period of time before reaching a given stop voltage.

As the bulk of the OU is only measureable when comparing the battery discharge characteristics of a lead acid battery under a dynamic versus a static load profile, it would seem wise to devise an alternate measurement method to reconcile the difference between this "battery rundown" method and his direct measurements.

As well, a further investigation of any possible FET driver contribution to the circuit should be considered.  But, one must first understand that under dynamic conditions, the gate of a MOSFET can indeed pass more than nanoamperes into the circuit, before one can devise methods to quantify this. 

In my original post, I merely stated that as it seems that many of these "OU" pulsed circuits require a battery, and that a lead acid battery is, for the most part, the chemistry of choice.  The possibility exisits that the observed OU is moreso related to differences in battery capacity under static versus dynamic loading, than to some previously unobserved phenomenon related to inductors.  Desulphators have been around for some time, and as well, the effects of pulse plating in the world of electroplating are also well known.


PW

Offline lanenal

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Re: Exploring the Inductive Resistor Heater
« Reply #53 on: May 03, 2013, 06:15:02 PM »

Lanenal,

I am not sure how you figure that an increase in capacity would somehow cause an exaggeration in Vdrop.  If the capacity of a battery is increased, it will hold a given voltage for a longer period of time under a given load.  There would be no "bogus voltage drop".  The larger capacity would just allow the battery to sustain a given load for a longer period of time before reaching a given stop voltage.

As the bulk of the OU is only measureable when comparing the battery discharge characteristics of a lead acid battery under a dynamic versus a static load profile, it would seem wise to devise an alternate measurement method to reconcile the difference between this "battery rundown" method and his direct measurements.

As well, a further investigation of any possible FET driver contribution to the circuit should be considered.  But, one must first understand that under dynamic conditions, the gate of a MOSFET can indeed pass more than nanoamperes into the circuit, before one can devise methods to quantify this. 

In my original post, I merely stated that as it seems that many of these "OU" pulsed circuits require a battery, and that a lead acid battery is, for the most part, the chemistry of choice, the possibility exists that the observed OU is moreso related to differences in battery capacity under static versus dynamic loading.  Desulphators have been around for some time, and as well, the effects of pulse plating in the world of electroplating are also well known.


PW


PW, let me first explain the exaggeration thingy. If I understood you correctly, from what you have said, increased capacity would allow the battery to last longer for the same voltage drop under a given load. (BTW, this looks like an OU statement: if the battery increases its capacity under pulsing load of equivalent wattage, then it lasts longer, which means that the total energy output is larger as time X watt = output energy).


So if the stored energy remains constant (by the law of energy conservation), AND if the base voltage does not change, then the initial voltage must drop. In math:


Battery Capacity =  Energy Output / Delta Voltage.


If the battery starts from full charge to full drain:


Battery Capacity = Total Stored Energy / (Initial Voltage - Base Voltage)


Now if Battery Capacity increases, and Total Stored Energy and Base Voltage remains constant, then Initial Voltage must drop to keep the identity.


regards,
lanenal

Edit: I am not making a strict argument, as batteries not not linear. If we assume that the point-wise Battery Capacity (as a function of current voltage) is bloated up by a constant factor, then the above argument can be easily transformed into integrations, with the conclusion unchanged.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Exploring the Inductive Resistor Heater
« Reply #53 on: May 03, 2013, 06:15:02 PM »
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Offline picowatt

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Re: Exploring the Inductive Resistor Heater
« Reply #54 on: May 03, 2013, 07:08:40 PM »

PW, let me first explain the exaggeration thingy. If I understood you correctly, from what you have said, increased capacity would allow the battery to last longer for the same voltage drop under a given load. (BTW, this looks like an OU statement: if the battery increases its capacity under pulsing load of equivalent wattage, then it lasts longer, which means that the total energy output is larger as time X watt = output energy).


So if the stored energy remains constant (by the law of energy conservation), AND if the base voltage does not change, then the initial voltage must drop. In math:


Battery Capacity =  Energy Output / Delta Voltage.


If the battery starts from full charge to full drain:


Battery Capacity = Total Stored Energy / (Initial Voltage - Base Voltage)


Now if Battery Capacity increases, and Total Stored Energy and Base Voltage remains constant, then Initial Voltage must drop to keep the identity.


regards,
lanenal

Lanenal,

That is exactly my point.  You think that the example I gave appears to be OU.

If one connected a desulphator to a battery and applied a load and noted the discharge time to a given stop voltage, and then did the same using the same load but without the desulphator connected and noted a shorter discharge time, there would be those who would claim that the desulphator produces overunity.

But, who ever said that a battery is "unity" to begin with?  A battery produces waste heat during both charge and discharge.  Suppose the charge/discharge efficiency of a lead acid battery is 70%.  Suppose the use of a desuplhator can increase this to 85%.  Though better, still not OU.

Desulphators supposedly produce finer grained sulphate crystals effectively increasing plate area.  As well, pulse and reverse pulse plating similarly are known to produce finer grained structures.  Visualize large clumps of sulphate crystals forming at the plates as opposed to a much smoother, finer grained structure.  As well as an increase in surface area, less resistive losses occur over the finer grains.  This is, supposedly, how a desulphator functions, and the waveforms used to desulphate have much in common with the waveforms of these OU circuits.

Do a search for "battery desulphator".  There are both construction articles as well as commercial units available.

I am not stating with any certainty that these effects are the reason for the observed OU, but, as these effects have been observed regarding lead acid batterys when being pulsed or reverse pulsed, should they not, at the very least, be considerd and ruled out as the reason for the observed OU?

As well, has anyone ever demonstrated the ability to discharge more energy from a battery than was required to charge it to begin with?
 

PW

 
 
« Last Edit: May 03, 2013, 10:15:43 PM by picowatt »

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Exploring the Inductive Resistor Heater
« Reply #55 on: May 04, 2013, 01:13:15 AM »
@TinselKoala: I am not a judge between you.

Greg in his first post already estimated the maximal energy contribution from the Gate Driver, which seems to be no big deal. As for the Gate current, Greg might be talking about gate leakage current, not the current to induce the voltage difference.

Transistors are gated by currents, while MOSFETS are gated by voltage difference, and to develop voltage difference there is a "hidden cap" (so to speak) at the Gate. The current depends on the frequency, max voltage difference, the current limiting resistor, and the capacity of the hidden cap. The gate leakage current is due to the imperfect insulation inside the "hidden" cap.

regards,

lanenal

I see that you, too, do not bother to watch my videos. Nor do you seem to understand the issues. The current flowing from the Gate to the Drain or Source of a mosfet under the dynamic conditions illustrated in my video and experienced by circuits such as Gmeast's and Ainslie's is NOT the 100 nA steady-state leakage current, nor is it "the current to induce the voltage difference" necessary to switch the gate, nor is it due to "the imperfect insulation" inside the "hidden" cap. It is a normal consequence of presenting a pulsed or AC signal to a capacitor.

Please watch my video above, and then explain how and why the light bulb attached to the function generator "probe" lights up when I have the FG connected between Gate and Source, or Gate and Drain of the mosfet... whether the mosfet is working in a circuit or not.

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Re: Exploring the Inductive Resistor Heater
« Reply #55 on: May 04, 2013, 01:13:15 AM »
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Offline lanenal

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Re: Exploring the Inductive Resistor Heater
« Reply #56 on: May 04, 2013, 06:48:09 AM »
Lanenal,

That is exactly my point.  You think that the example I gave appears to be OU.

If one connected a desulphator to a battery and applied a load and noted the discharge time to a given stop voltage, and then did the same using the same load but without the desulphator connected and noted a shorter discharge time, there would be those who would claim that the desulphator produces overunity.

But, who ever said that a battery is "unity" to begin with?  A battery produces waste heat during both charge and discharge.  Suppose the charge/discharge efficiency of a lead acid battery is 70%.  Suppose the use of a desuplhator can increase this to 85%.  Though better, still not OU.

Desulphators supposedly produce finer grained sulphate crystals effectively increasing plate area.  As well, pulse and reverse pulse plating similarly are known to produce finer grained structures.  Visualize large clumps of sulphate crystals forming at the plates as opposed to a much smoother, finer grained structure.  As well as an increase in surface area, less resistive losses occur over the finer grains.  This is, supposedly, how a desulphator functions, and the waveforms used to desulphate have much in common with the waveforms of these OU circuits.

Do a search for "battery desulphator".  There are both construction articles as well as commercial units available.

I am not stating with any certainty that these effects are the reason for the observed OU, but, as these effects have been observed regarding lead acid batterys when being pulsed or reverse pulsed, should they not, at the very least, be considerd and ruled out as the reason for the observed OU?

As well, has anyone ever demonstrated the ability to discharge more energy from a battery than was required to charge it to begin with?
 

PW[size=78%] [/size]


PW, you don't seem to understand what I am talking about. Your very argument about battery capacity is against the law of energy conservation. Your lengthy argument only seem to mislead and misinform people.


lanenal

Offline lanenal

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Re: Exploring the Inductive Resistor Heater
« Reply #57 on: May 04, 2013, 06:49:41 AM »
I see that you, too, do not bother to watch my videos. Nor do you seem to understand the issues. The current flowing from the Gate to the Drain or Source of a mosfet under the dynamic conditions illustrated in my video and experienced by circuits such as Gmeast's and Ainslie's is NOT the 100 nA steady-state leakage current, nor is it "the current to induce the voltage difference" necessary to switch the gate, nor is it due to "the imperfect insulation" inside the "hidden" cap. It is a normal consequence of presenting a pulsed or AC signal to a capacitor.

Please watch my video above, and then explain how and why the light bulb attached to the function generator "probe" lights up when I have the FG connected between Gate and Source, or Gate and Drain of the mosfet... whether the mosfet is working in a circuit or not.


If you really understood what I have wrote to you, you won't say all that nonsense. You are amazing.

Offline lanenal

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Re: Exploring the Inductive Resistor Heater
« Reply #58 on: May 04, 2013, 06:57:53 AM »
Hi Greg,

I have watched your video, and I have a question for you about the measured voltage drop over SH3 when the circuit is hooked up. Since the voltage should be oscilating, what you measured must be some sort of average voltage, right? Is it RMS? or is it something else?

great job, and thanks for sharing.

lanenal


It would be great to know more about your set up. For example, what is the frequency and duty cycle of your signal sent to the gate? What is the resistance/inductance of your RL? From that I can actually calculate the battery energy spent on the RL. Also, please share about what material is used to construct the RL and what other things to note in the construction. What kind of Diode and MOSFET is in use, etc. Thanks!

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Exploring the Inductive Resistor Heater
« Reply #59 on: May 04, 2013, 09:09:54 AM »

If you really understood what I have wrote to you, you won't say all that nonsense. You are amazing.

In the video I CLEARLY SHOW THE MOSFET PASSING FAR MORE THAN 100 nA between the Gate and the Source and also between the Gate and the Drain. I do this with the mosfet operating in a circuit from a different power source, and I also do this with the "bare" mosfet disconnected from any power source except the FG. Then I hook the mosfet back into the powered circuit to show that it is still operational and still works as a normal mosfet.

According to you, and to Gmeast, this is impossible. So I want your explanation as to how I did it.


You are amazing with your nonsense, that's for sure. You won't even deal with the issues, nor will you bother to educate yourself, nor do you deal with the points I raise, or that PW raises, directly.

I'll put my knowledge of MOSFETS and their operation up against yours any day, any time, lanenal. Where are your demonstrations, where are the devices you've built using mosfets, what are your qualifications to even be in this discussion? As far as I am aware, you have NONE.

 

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