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Author Topic: Exploring the Inductive Resistor Heater  (Read 56016 times)

Offline gmeast

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Exploring the Inductive Resistor Heater
« on: April 26, 2013, 05:43:17 AM »
Hi all,

The tests and test protocol I've outlined are based on an academic investigation of a particular mode of energizing an Inductive-Resistor Heater.

I have performed an analysis of the Heater's performance. The analysis DOES NOT rely on the use of expensive test equipment and can be replicated by anyone with the patience and diligence to follow through. A comprehensive testing protocol is outlined at the end of a Video Slide Show I have prepared. The Video Slide Show can be viewed on my YouTube channel at:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q473lX-Zw1w


You must put the following in context AFTER viewing the Video Slide Show. The analysis is of the 2nd circuit configuration below:


The PWM and MOSFET Gate Driver are powered from their own support battery common'd at GND to the circuit being tested. This is to isolate the controlling circuitry from the MOSFET Switch and the Heater Element. Therefore, the PWM and Gate Driver are being treated as sort of a 'friction-less commutator' for the purposes of this investigation. However, it is vital to consider the effect the Driver has on the entire setup. For this reason I performed several tests to determine if the Driver was contributing any appreciable energy in heating the Inductive-Resistor. The tests were performed for two circuit configurations with similar outcomes. Below are the two circuit configurations followed by scope captures showing MINIMAL (if any) contribution from the Gate Driver.

The difference in their voltage drop between Loaded and Not Loaded is 0.9mV across a 0.1 Ohm x 1% non inductive CSR ...SHDriver.  The support battery runs nominally at 13VDC. That translates to 0.117 Watts and for the duration of my tests (8-hours) translates into 0.93W-Hrs of energy.

So ... the contribution from the MOSFET gate driver is negligible, but has been considered against the observed performance of the circuit and noted here. Also, the PWM's input to the Gate Driver is logic level and wouldn't be considered in the scheme of things any more than you'd consider the power a function generator is drawing from its wall socket.


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Offline gmeast

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Re: Exploring the Inductive Resistor Heater
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2013, 01:32:21 AM »

Hi again,

Just in case someone will want to know what batteries I'm using, I shot some photos of them. I also took a shot of the chargers I use. The larger battery is a SEC1075, 12V, 7Ah AGM (Absorbent Glass Mat) and the smaller one is the SLA0810, 2V, 6Ah, AGM. I use two 12V and one 2V in series. The battery charger is a really cool 6V / 12V Charger, P/N SEM-1562A. I have two of these chargers. One I use for charging the 12V batteries in parallel. The other charger is used to charge the 2V battery, so I have two more 2V to make up the total of 6V, so those charge in series. This is so I can charge both 12Vs & 2V at the same time ... here they are:



Enjoy,


Greg

Offline picowatt

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Re: Exploring the Inductive Resistor Heater
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2013, 09:06:05 PM »
Greg,

Is it not more likely that all of your testing has merely proven the well known phenomenon that a lead acid battery, and indeed most battery chemistries, produce different amp hour ratings for different load profiles?  Would you expect a 100% duty cycle 1 amp load, a 50% duty cycle 2 amp load, and a 25% duty cycle 4 amp load, applied to a given battery, to all yield identical amp hour ratings from that battery?

Moreover, with regard to your circuit, and in particular her circuit, the concept of desulphation wherein a continuous sequence of reverse polarity pulses is applied to a lead acid battery to break up large sulphate crystals and enhance battery performance has been around for some time.  Additionally, pulse and reverse pulse plating has been used by electroplaters for years to produce finer grain metallic platings.  As the action of a lead acid battery is also a "plating" process, it is very likely that similar finer grain platng occurs when pulsing or reverse polarity pulsing a lead acid battery while under load, thereby increasing the active area of the plated surfaces and hence, increasing its amp hour rating.

When claims of COP=infinity were beng made, an easy proof would have been to just let the circuit run "forever" to prove the battery never discharged.  Now that the claims are with respect to merely demonstrating that a battery's amp hour rating is increased with respect to a given amount of energy extracted usig different load profiles, one would think that a claim of overunity must also account for and prove that less energy is required to recharge the battery than was witdrawn by the load. 

If you search for desulphator schematics and look at various desulphator waveforms, you will see a great deal of similarity between the operation of those circuits and related waveforms and the circuits and waveforms utilized to produce claimed overunity with lead acid batteries.  But again, I believe these claims are moreso related to claims of increased battery amp hour ratings under varying load profiles in concert with the actions of desulphation and reverse pulse plating than to claims of "overunity".

 

PW







 

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Re: Exploring the Inductive Resistor Heater
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2013, 09:06:05 PM »
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Offline gmeast

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Re: Exploring the Inductive Resistor Heater
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2013, 12:22:39 AM »
Greg,

Is it not more likely that all of your testing has merely proven the well known phenomenon that a lead acid battery, and indeed most battery chemistries, produce different amp hour ratings for different load profiles?  Would you expect a 100% duty cycle 1 amp load, a 50% duty cycle 2 amp load, and a 25% duty cycle 4 amp load, applied to a given battery, to all yield identical amp hour ratings from that battery?

Moreover, with regard to your circuit, and in particular her circuit, the concept of desulphation wherein a continuous sequence of reverse polarity pulses is applied to a lead acid battery to break up large sulphate crystals and enhance battery performance has been around for some time.  Additionally, pulse and reverse pulse plating has been used by electroplaters for years to produce finer grain metallic platings.  As the action of a lead acid battery is also a "plating" process, it is very likely that similar finer grain platng occurs when pulsing or reverse polarity pulsing a lead acid battery while under load, thereby increasing the active area of the plated surfaces and hence, increasing its amp hour rating.

When claims of COP=infinity were beng made, an easy proof would have been to just let the circuit run "forever" to prove the battery never discharged.  Now that the claims are with respect to merely demonstrating that a battery's amp hour rating is increased with respect to a given amount of energy extracted usig different load profiles, one would think that a claim of overunity must also account for and prove that less energy is required to recharge the battery than was witdrawn by the load. 

If you search for desulphator schematics and look at various desulphator waveforms, you will see a great deal of similarity between the operation of those circuits and related waveforms and the circuits and waveforms utilized to produce claimed overunity with lead acid batteries.  But again, I believe these claims are moreso related to claims of increased battery amp hour ratings under varying load profiles in concert with the actions of desulphation and reverse pulse plating than to claims of "overunity".

 
PW


Hi PW,


Thanks for your observations.  Although I'm aware of Rosie's tests that reference Battery ratings, I don't consider the amp-hour ratings of the batteries at all other than to 'range' my load and test duration. In my presentation I do not make any reference to some important data contained in the data sheets ... and that is the 'unloaded' battery voltages. The reason for that data was to compare the start and end voltage differences, loaded and unloaded, and you'll see that those numbers are very nearly the same for any given test. This is a good account of how the batteries drew down ... that is to say ... I was NOT recording 'surface' charge or 'fluff'.  For my batteries, upon unloading, they recover to 95% of their 'new' resting voltage in 2-minutes. That's why I use that figure of 2-minutes (read the testing outline). And also, the times it took to recharge the batteries after the Circuit Test and after the 2nd Draw Down Test were within 45 minutes of one another. After the 1st Draw Down Test, the batteries took a good 3-hours longer to fully recharge.


The test I show in the presentation is a repeat of over a dozen similar tests. And as far as:

" ... Would you expect a 100% duty cycle 1 amp load, a 50% duty cycle 2 amp load, and a 25% duty cycle 4 amp load, applied to a given battery, to all yield identical amp hour ratings from that battery? ... "

I have no idea what you're getting at. I don't use any duty cycle values for any calculation. I'm dealing with equivalent heat in terms of "Energy" ... not power ... using 'power' which is an 'instantaneous component value' is incorrect to use in these analyses.


I used whatever frequency and duty cycle gave me the most heat on the test fixture. It's as simple as that. All I'll say is that I have no idea where the excess heat is coming from but it's there.


My intent for this thread is to post my progress and findings. I will not debate the integrity of the data or my methods with anyone. These tests have been performed many times with consistent results. The batteries always show the same characteristics and show no signs of degradation.


I'm forging ahead on this. Don't attempt to dissuade me because you can't. Thank you,



Greg



 


Offline picowatt

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Re: Exploring the Inductive Resistor Heater
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2013, 01:28:04 AM »

Hi PW,


Thanks for your observations.  Although I'm aware of Rosie's tests that reference Battery ratings, I don't consider the amp-hour ratings of the batteries at all other than to 'range' my load and test duration. In my presentation I do not make any reference to some important data contained in the data sheets ... and that is the 'unloaded' battery voltages. The reason for that data was to compare the start and end voltage differences, loaded and unloaded, and you'll see that those numbers are very nearly the same for any given test. This is a good account of how the batteries drew down ... that is to say ... I was NOT recording 'surface' charge or 'fluff'.  For my batteries, upon unloading, they recover to 95% of their 'new' resting voltage in 2-minutes. That's why I use that figure of 2-minutes (read the testing outline). And also, the times it took to recharge the batteries after the Circuit Test and after the 2nd Draw Down Test were within 45 minutes of one another. After the 1st Draw Down Test, the batteries took a good 3-hours longer to fully recharge.


The test I show in the presentation is a repeat of over a dozen similar tests. And as far as:

" ... Would you expect a 100% duty cycle 1 amp load, a 50% duty cycle 2 amp load, and a 25% duty cycle 4 amp load, applied to a given battery, to all yield identical amp hour ratings from that battery? ... "

I have no idea what you're getting at. I don't use any duty cycle values for any calculation. I'm dealing with equivalent heat in terms of "Energy" ... not power ... using 'power' which is an 'instantaneous component value' is incorrect to use in these analyses.


I used whatever frequency and duty cycle gave me the most heat on the test fixture. It's as simple as that. All I'll say is that I have no idea where the excess heat is coming from but it's there.


My intent for this thread is to post my progress and findings. I will not debate the integrity of the data or my methods with anyone. These tests have been performed many times with consistent results. The batteries always show the same characteristics and show no signs of degradation.


I'm forging ahead on this. Don't attempt to dissuade me because you can't. Thank you,



Greg

Greg,

Not trying to disuade you at all.  Just saying, a battery under different load profiles will net a different amp hour rating and hence, a different discharge curve or rate.

From my read of your test methods, you utilize the differences in battery discharge rates with different load profiles, i.e., a pulsed load of a given duty cycle versus a fixed load of a given resistance to determine efficiency.  So yes, duty cycles, or more specifically, load profiles,  are indeed involved in your tests in that one of your loads is your pulsed circuit at less than 100% duty cycle and your other reference load is a 100% duty cycle load using an equivalent heat output resistor.  Hence, my question, would you expect the same amp hour rating, i.e., discharge rate, from a given battery when loads of 1 amp at 100%, 2 amp at 50% or 4 amp at 25% are applied?  Each of those load profiles would generate the same heat output, but I would not expect the battery to respond equally regarding discharge rates. 


But, please forgive me, I was not aware we were not to post comments here.

PW

 

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Re: Exploring the Inductive Resistor Heater
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2013, 01:28:04 AM »
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Offline gmeast

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Re: Exploring the Inductive Resistor Heater
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2013, 03:20:24 AM »
Greg,

Not trying to disuade you at all.  Just saying, a battery under different load profiles will net a different amp hour rating and hence, a different discharge curve or rate.

From my read of your test methods, you utilize the differences in battery discharge rates with different load profiles, i.e., a pulsed load of a given duty cycle versus a fixed load of a given resistance to determine efficiency.  So yes, duty cycles, or more specifically, load profiles,  are indeed involved in your tests in that one of your loads is your pulsed circuit at less than 100% duty cycle and your other reference load is a 100% duty cycle load using an equivalent heat output resistor.  Hence, my question, would you expect the same amp hour rating, i.e., discharge rate, from a given battery when loads of 1 amp at 100%, 2 amp at 50% or 4 amp at 25% are applied?  Each of those load profiles would generate the same heat output, but I would not expect the battery to respond equally regarding discharge rates. 


But, please forgive me, I was not aware we were not to post comments here.

PW


Hi PW,


You are correct with regards to your assessment of power and heat for ... "1 amp at 100%, 2 amp at 50%, 4 amp at 25% ... " and so on, but only for those nice, clean pure square wave pulses applied to a non-inductive, purely resistive load that cares not about rapid-edge transitioning pulses applied to it.  Things change when you apply the same pulsing regimen to an inductor. An inductor stores energy in a magnetic field AND heats up when powered. When power is remove via a switch of equivalent, the magnetic field collapses, viciously slicing through the inductor and any and all background or vacuum energy fields and further induces, collapses, induces, collapses, etc, and eventually damps out (most likely manifested as heat). These are complex events that are non-linear and asymmetrical, and DO NOT TEST OUT so neatly as the theoretical and 'ideal' examples above. Heat produced on the test fixture strays far from the theoretical and 'ideal' for various combinations of frequency and duty cycle.


For clarity: Amp-Hours is an expression of capacity ... and can be quite arbitrary. My batteries are 7Ah and only at .350A for 20Hrs, or it can be a 10Hr rating or a 5Hr rating or 50Hr rating.  I'm talking Watt-Hours ... "Energy".


Yes ... I assume that after every battery recharge, the batteries are returned to the same storage level each time ... and they are. It is easy to verify ... it is the reason for the rather complex charging and start-up procedure leading into every test.  This is what is tested:


From the instant the load is applied, time is carefully tracked to make sure the test's starting voltage is reached in the same time as in the other tests. For a purely resistive load applied during this time, this proves the battery's capacity is the same as for previous tests. This is inarguable. A voltage drop or voltage rise from the same starting voltage across a known resistive load over the same measured time is the same amount of Energy. As long as the temperatures are also the same. Again ... this is the reason I also sample the unloaded battery voltages at the start and end of the tests .. again proving I'm recording actual resources used up and not 'surface charge' or 'fluff' ... "fluff" - what a stupid term! Who came up with that?


Thank you PW,


Greg

Offline picowatt

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Re: Exploring the Inductive Resistor Heater
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2013, 03:45:02 AM »

Hi PW,


You are correct with regards to your assessment of power and heat for ... "1 amp at 100%, 2 amp at 50%, 4 amp at 25% ... " and so on, but only for those nice, clean pure square wave pulses applied to a non-inductive, purely resistive load that cares not about rapid-edge transitioning pulses applied to it.  Things change when you apply the same pulsing regimen to an inductor. An inductor stores energy in a magnetic field AND heats up when powered. When power is remove via a switch of equivalent, the magnetic field collapses, viciously slicing through the inductor and any and all background or vacuum energy fields and further induces, collapses, induces, collapses, etc, and eventually damps out (most likely manifested as heat). These are complex events that are non-linear and asymmetrical, and DO NOT TEST OUT so neatly as the theoretical and 'ideal' examples above. Heat produced on the test fixture strays far from the theoretical and 'ideal' for various combinations of frequency and duty cycle.


For clarity: Amp-Hours is an expression of capacity ... and can be quite arbitrary. My batteries are 7Ah and only at .350A for 20Hrs, or it can be a 10Hr rating or a 5Hr rating or 50Hr rating.  I'm talking Watt-Hours ... "Energy".


Yes ... I assume that after every battery recharge, the batteries are returned to the same storage level each time ... and they are. It is easy to verify ... it is the reason for the rather complex charging and start-up procedure leading into every test.  This is what is tested:


From the instant the load is applied, time is carefully tracked to make sure the test's starting voltage is reached in the same time as in the other tests. For a purely resistive load applied during this time, this proves the battery's capacity is the same as for previous tests. This is inarguable. A voltage drop or voltage rise from the same starting voltage across a known resistive load over the same measured time is the same amount of Energy. As long as the temperatures are also the same. Again ... this is the reason I also sample the unloaded battery voltages at the start and end of the tests .. again proving I'm recording actual resources used up and not 'surface charge' or 'fluff' ... "fluff" - what a stupid term! Who came up with that?


Thank you PW,


Greg

Greg,

Yes Greg, I can see that your waveforms are anything but square.  They do not however represent a 100% duty cycle anymore than a sine wave does.  Disregarding the semantics, the point was that different load profiles will produce different battery discharge curves.  Your pulsed circuit is one load profile of less than 100% duty cycle and the fixed resistive load is a different load profile with a 100% duty cycle.

It is my understanding that you use the measured time between your battery start/stop voltages using two different load profiles to calculate your efficiency.  That is, I thought you used the fixed resistance load in concert with start stop voltages versus time to determine input power.

Possibly I have not read your test protocols correctly, but it sounds like you are using the response of the battery to one load profile as a method to measure the "energy" dissipated by a different load profile.

 

PW

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Re: Exploring the Inductive Resistor Heater
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2013, 03:45:02 AM »
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Offline gmeast

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Re: Exploring the Inductive Resistor Heater
« Reply #7 on: April 29, 2013, 04:39:59 AM »
Greg,

Yes Greg, I can see that your waveforms are anything but square.  They do not however represent a 100% duty cycle anymore than a sine wave does.  Disregarding the semantics, the point was that different load profiles will produce different battery discharge curves.  Your pulsed circuit is one load profile of less than 100% duty cycle and the fixed resistive load is a different load profile with a 100% duty cycle.

It is my understanding that you use the measured time between your battery start/stop voltages using two different load profiles to calculate your efficiency.  That is, I thought you used the fixed resistance load in concert with start stop voltages versus time to determine input power.

Possibly I have not read your test protocols correctly, but it sounds like you are using the response of the battery to one load profile as a method to measure the "energy" dissipated by a different load profile.

 

PW


Hi PW,


Read it carefully. You are incorrect in your assessment, but I appreciate going through this exercise with you. The circuit load was a recorded value that 'was what it was' across SH3. It was NOT an established load, it was the load on the battery the circuit (seemingly) presented, or 5.6mV on 0.05-Ohm CSR SH3. It was a RESULTANT value on SH3 in the Circuit test. It was simply a value that was recorded. Nothing was 'set to it' in the Circuit Test. However, the 1st Resistive Load Test Was ADJUSTED to 5.6mV on SH3. So we have the same (seeming) load on the batteries ... one being the RESULT of loading the batteries and the other being SET AS THE LOAD on the batteries. What meters, scopes and instruments CANNOT DETECT are the energies providing either excess heat to RL or any energies being returned to the batteries, or both.


As it turns out, it doesn't matter what the load was for the 1st resistive load test. A heavier load would draw the batteries down sooner and a lighter load would draw them down later. A heavy load is a higher wattage (power) and a lighter load is lower wattage (power). What's important is where this discharge curve crosses the ENDING voltage of the Circuit test.  Higher Power X Shorter Time = Lower Power X Longer Time. It ends up being the same Watt-Hours of Energy.


The 2nd Resistive Load Test was the PROOF. I used the quotient of the 1st Resistive Load Test's Energy / The Circuit Test's Heating Energy (on the test fixture provided by the precision DC power supply) as a factor to adjust this test's resistive load such that its starting and ending voltages were the same as for the Circuit test. And that simple ratio 'pegged' the proper loading 'dead-nutts-on' or 'spot on'. It's nearly exactly the energy as for the 1st Resistive Load Test. Of course I was able to get actual power from this because I could measure the resistive load, and I know the battery voltages, and a child can do the math.


I then 'Proved' the Proof by applying this power 'DIRECTLY' to RL (using the precision DC power supply) which resulted in less heating on the test fixture.


Thanks PW,


Greg



Offline picowatt

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Re: Exploring the Inductive Resistor Heater
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2013, 05:13:29 AM »

Hi PW,


Read it carefully. You are incorrect in your assessment, but I appreciate going through this exercise with you. The circuit load was a recorded value that 'was what it was' across SH3. It was NOT an established load, it was the load on the battery the circuit (seemingly) presented, or 5.6mV on 0.05-Ohm CSR SH3. It was a RESULTANT value on SH3 in the Circuit test. It was simply a value that was recorded. Nothing was 'set to it' in the Circuit Test. However, the 1st Resistive Load Test Was ADJUSTED to 5.6mV on SH3. So we have the same (seeming) load on the batteries ... one being the RESULT of loading the batteries and the other being SET AS THE LOAD on the batteries. What meters, scopes and instruments CANNOT DETECT are the energies providing either excess heat to RL or any energies being returned to the batteries, or both.


As it turns out, it doesn't matter what the load was for the 1st resistive load test. A heavier load would draw the batteries down sooner and a lighter load would draw them down later. A heavy load is a higher wattage (power) and a lighter load is lower wattage (power). What's important is where this discharge curve crosses the ENDING voltage of the Circuit test.  Higher Power X Shorter Time = Lower Power X Longer Time. It ends up being the same Watt-Hours of Energy.


The 2nd Resistive Load Test was the PROOF. I used the quotient of the 1st Resistive Load Test's Energy / The Circuit Test's Heating Energy (on the test fixture provided by the precision DC power supply) as a factor to adjust this test's resistive load such that its starting and ending voltages were the same as for the Circuit test. And that simple ratio 'pegged' the proper loading 'dead-nutts-on' or 'spot on'. It's nearly exactly the energy as for the 1st Resistive Load Test. Of course I was able to get actual power from this because I could measure the resistive load, and I know the battery voltages, and a child can do the math.


I then 'Proved' the Proof by applying this power 'DIRECTLY' to RL (using the precision DC power supply) which resulted in less heating on the test fixture.


Thanks PW,


Greg

Greg,

Possibly I misunderstood.

I thought you were running your pulsing circuit, noting the stabilized temp, and measuring time between battery start and stop voltages.

Then, usng the bench supply, you adjust for a similar stabilized temp and note the V and I from the supply.

Then, using the V and I figures from the bench supply test, you select a fixed resistor value that applies a similar load to the recharged and stabilized battery as the bench supply indicated and again note the time between battery start and stop voltages.

Efficiencyis then determined by comparing the first and last portions above.

If that is incorrect, I will have to take some more time when available to reread your protocol.

PW




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Re: Exploring the Inductive Resistor Heater
« Reply #8 on: April 29, 2013, 05:13:29 AM »
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Offline gmeast

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Re: Exploring the Inductive Resistor Heater
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2013, 03:31:27 PM »
Greg,

Possibly I misunderstood.

I thought you were running your pulsing circuit, noting the stabilized temp, and measuring time between battery start and stop voltages.

Then, usng the bench supply, you adjust for a similar stabilized temp and note the V and I from the supply.

Then, using the V and I figures from the bench supply test, you select a fixed resistor value that applies a similar load to the recharged and stabilized battery as the bench supply indicated and again note the time between battery start and stop voltages.

Efficiencyis then determined by comparing the first and last portions above.

If that is incorrect, I will have to take some more time when available to reread your protocol.

PW


Hi PW,


Thanks for the exchange.  All of the information is in that Slide Show. When you:


 ... " take some more time when available to reread your (my) protocol." ...


it would be time well spent.  Actually there are so many technical and non-technical individuals who have contacted me and expressed gratitude for having explained these experiments in the detail and with the simplicity and clarity that I have, I don't see the need to engage you any further on this.  Most everyone else seem(s) to 'get it'.  My efforts are now aimed at conducting several dozen (more) experiments testing the reliability of my protocol and publishing the results as I have with the Heater Slide Show.


I do this for all of those experimenters out there that NEED a simpler way to conduct their experiments, take measurements, generate meaningful data and contribute technology that will help break the backs of the control mongers of this world. 


Regards,


Greg






Offline gmeast

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Re: Exploring the Inductive Resistor Heater
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2013, 03:38:02 PM »
x
« Last Edit: April 29, 2013, 11:52:00 PM by gmeast »

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Re: Exploring the Inductive Resistor Heater
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2013, 03:38:02 PM »
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Offline picowatt

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Re: Exploring the Inductive Resistor Heater
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2013, 04:46:29 PM »


Greg,

I have been watching your video and remain a bit confused.

I thought the premise of your measurement method was that it did not require the measurement of the voltage/current of any complex or fast risetime waveforms.  Yet apparently the voltage at SH3 is being used.

So far, this is what I gather you are doing, please correct me if I am in error:

Step 1:  Run the burst heater and note the deltaT, SH3 Vdrop, and the Vbatt start/stop voltages.

Step 2:  To determine the burst heater's output power, you use a fixed DC supply to drive Rload to the same delta T as in step 1 and note the supply's V and I.

Step3:  To determine input power for step 1, use a rheostat as Rload adjusted to produce the same SH3 Vdrop as noted in step 1 and again measure Vbatt start and stop voltages.

Step4:  Compare the battery discharge curves from step1 and step 3


Before I attempt to grasp this a bit more, how is SH3 being measured in step 1?

PW


Offline picowatt

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Re: Exploring the Inductive Resistor Heater
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2013, 05:05:09 PM »
Greg,

I originally thought you were:

Step1:  Run BH circuit, note deltaT and Vbatt start/stop voltage
Step2:  Use supply to produce same deltaT in step 1 and note the required power using supply's V and I
Step3:  Apply a selected resistive load to Vbatt which produces a similar power load to Vbatt as determined by step 2

Step4:  Compare discharge curves of step1 and step2

The reason I thought you were doing this way was to eliminate the need to measure complex waveforms.

Explin it a bit more if you would...

PW


Offline picowatt

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Re: Exploring the Inductive Resistor Heater
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2013, 06:11:46 PM »
Greg,

I see there is a "step 5", as further verification, wherein you use the rheostat to generate a similar discharge curve as observed in step one and note the V and I of that test.

From what I originally gathered, and still do, it appears that you rely heavily on the discharge characteristics of your lead acid batteries to make your determination of OU.

I can only restate what I said in my original post here, which is that under different load profiles, a battery will net a different amp hour (or watt hour) rating and, ultimately, different discharge curves, even if those load profiles produce similar average loads.

As well, the effects of desulphation and pulse/reverse pulse plating when using pulsed loads, as compared to DC loads, will very likely affect the discharge curves as well.

Is there some part of your testing that I have missed that rules out the effects of different load profiles, desulphation, and pulse/reverse pulse plating as the reason for the different discharge curves?  One would think that if theses effects are not in play with your tests, that the battery could be eliminated altogether and only a DC supply used to prove that more heat is generated in the burst heater circuit than is produced under DC conditions.

Have you ever run the burst heater off of a well filtered supply, measured the V and I, and then applied that same amount of power from the supply directly to Rload to see if excess heat is produced in the first instance?

PW





Offline gmeast

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Re: Exploring the Inductive Resistor Heater
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2013, 11:44:54 PM »
Discharge 'characteristics "no" ... energy drawn from the batteries "yes". I must say, you are the only one stuck on this "characteristics" nonsense.


To attempt to clarify things further:


I use a scope to make sure the waveform is not doing weird things. I monitor the FET's drain for waveform shape and SH3 for one of the mean CSR values and I also use a DVM on SH3 as a check for agreement between the instruments ... and they always agree. Using a DVM is that poynty-head's thing he's so proud of.


BUT ... the values from SH3 do not represent the energy consumed by the circuit. NO instruments can detect the types of energies that account for the excess heating on RL nor can they detect anything going on inside the battery as a result of D1.


You are simply assuming that the final judgement has been rendered as to how to measure anything and everything and that everything is known that is ever to be known and there is nothing left to be learned. How terrible that you have limited yourself in that way.


Bye

 

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