Storing Cookies (See : http://ec.europa.eu/ipg/basics/legal/cookies/index_en.htm ) help us to bring you our services at overunity.com . If you use this website and our services you declare yourself okay with using cookies .More Infos here:
https://overunity.com/5553/privacy-policy/
If you do not agree with storing cookies, please LEAVE this website now. From the 25th of May 2018, every existing user has to accept the GDPR agreement at first login. If a user is unwilling to accept the GDPR, he should email us and request to erase his account. Many thanks for your understanding

User Menu

Custom Search

Author Topic: Spinning magnets with radio waves.  (Read 25065 times)

synchro1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4720
Re: Spinning magnets with radio waves.
« Reply #15 on: April 26, 2013, 10:40:37 PM »
@Tinselkoala,

                      Your spinning inside a coil core! Fantastic little setup. State of the art! Astonishing to see it start up from stand still and run up so smartly on sine waves alone. The two series coils remind me of Alfcentauro's up to 300k r.p.m. setup. A tiny precision 1/4" ceramic bearing on a 1/8" carbon axel would take you hypersonic. The 10k+ r.p.m you achieve with that crude friction bearing is still very impressive. 200 hz is nearly 3x's retrod's frequency!  Altogether a very exciting series of record breaking feats.

                       The single precision ceramic bearing costs over a hundred dollars. I just let a neo tube ride free on the one self centering bearing. You'd get ten times the speed! Your bearing friction grows overwhelming at top end. There's a picture of the precision ceramic bearing below:
                       
                       My 1/2" Neo Sphere levitates at high speed. The 1/2" P.V.C. coupling could easily be plugged and evacuated by check valve for silent and safe hypersonic speed testing.

                       Tape a couple of tiny SB pancake pickup coils on each end of the twin power coils, and run the output through a FWBR to a charge battery for "Lenz Free" operation, or place a capacitor in series between fast switching diodes and the output coils to catch  "Lenz Free" output that way. Works as good!. You'll probably test close to a few thousand times OU already..

                        The other thing to remember is that the magnet spinner grows measurably more massive with velocity. This can effect spin factors like bearings and axel friction. Your tiny disk spinner drops off at 180 hz, The frictionless spinner would more then likely keep speeding up like Alf's. He never told anyone what he was up too. I think it's pretty obvious now.. The big difference is Alf's tiny cylinder is very petite, practically worthless for any practical output. Your tiny disk should generate some reasonable amount of output power. Alf must be spinning at 6 khz. Still just speaker blowing audio range.


 
« Last Edit: April 27, 2013, 03:17:57 AM by synchro1 »

synchro1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4720
Re: Spinning magnets with radio waves.
« Reply #16 on: April 27, 2013, 02:09:02 AM »
Conradelectro is spinning a ring magnet at 8400 r.p.m. for .5 Watt. He's trying to get the highest speed for the lowest input. How can his design efficiency compare with the miniscule amount of power TK's sine wave motor uses to hit 10k  r.p.m. ? Another look at Conrad's circuit schematic. He's sporting four power hungery mosfets and a Hall effect transistor!. A half watt is an enormous amount of power compared to the synchronous sine wave motor consumption TK just tested..

Compare Conradelectro's pulse motor circuit to the schematic for a Wien bridge oscillator posted below it. The Wein bridge's good for sine wave generation between 14 hz and 180 hz, around the range TK used to spin up to 10-12k r.p.m. with his Interstate F43 function generator.. This Wien bridge circuit runs off a 9 volt battery for very little. There's no 1/2 Watt going down the drain with this miniature one op amp sine wave circuit! Frequency's adjustable by potentiometer, and the timing's automatic and flawless!
 

TinselKoala

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13958
Re: Spinning magnets with radio waves.
« Reply #17 on: April 27, 2013, 07:01:13 AM »
Well, my power input isn't that small.... the F43 is a powerful FG and I have it cranked right up.  I'm uploading a video right now showing some input power measurements.....

The surprising thing is this: I spin the magnet up to the test frequency and show the scope traces from current and voltage input. Then I stick my finger into the motor to stop the magnet. FG setting isn't changed. The spinner draws _more power_ when the magnet isn't spinning.

Think about that one for a while. I think this is the same kind of evidence (sic) that Steorn used in their initial claim of OU performance in their electric Orbo motor.

Video is still uploading but will be at
http://youtu.be/hdqiUOKLTVs
when it's done, probably in an hour or so.

TinselKoala

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13958
Re: Spinning magnets with radio waves.
« Reply #18 on: April 27, 2013, 07:18:58 AM »
After I made that video, I took the thing apart and rebuilt the suspension and got a bit better balance on the rotor magnet. This allowed me to attain a new speed record: 19,800 RPM (over 325 Hz), using square wave drive, confirmed with the StroboTac. The video will take a bit of time to upload, probably won't be ready for a couple of hours.

Input power estimation is a lot more complicated with the squarewave drive, but I've got the F43's output turned right up again. It's not especially small.

Later on I'll play around with pulse width. By cutting the duty cycle the input power can be reduced greatly, I'm sure, but it may not spin as fast before dropping out.

I need to make some small pickup coils, yes. But I don't have any fine wire, the #27 is all I've got. I'll have to see if I can scrounge a relay coil or something like that.

Farmhand

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1583
Re: Spinning magnets with radio waves.
« Reply #19 on: April 27, 2013, 07:25:45 AM »
Tinsel, The spinning magnet must be exerting a counter emf on the coil ?

Synchro, Conrad's magnet that he is spinning is a big one that weighs a bit, it can't be compared to Tinsel's setup,
Conrad's setup can have several generator coils excited by it as well. And his power input is fairly low anyway.

I see not much benefit to spinning just magnets but that's just me, I have nothing at all against it.

But I must say if you think a permanent magnet AC motor is new or novel it is not, they are used in commercial products already, the ones I have
contain quite strong permanent magnets.

I must also say I don't understand why the need for micro power input ? I mean to say we are much more likely to get a gain of a few Watts from a setup that uses tens of whats than we are from a setup that uses MilliWatts. And higher powers make accurate measurements easier.

But I digress the thread is about spinning magnets, I just wanted to say i don't think Conrad's setup can be compared to Tinsels setup.

Cheers



Pirate88179

  • elite_member
  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8366
Re: Spinning magnets with radio waves.
« Reply #20 on: April 27, 2013, 08:04:40 AM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hm8Vpxv4Ydw

Here is one of alfacentauro1111's videos I remember.  That sphere is really cranking.

Bill

synchro1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4720
Re: Spinning magnets with radio waves.
« Reply #21 on: April 27, 2013, 02:46:30 PM »
Well, my power input isn't that small.... the F43 is a powerful FG and I have it cranked right up.  I'm uploading a video right now showing some input power measurements.....

The surprising thing is this: I spin the magnet up to the test frequency and show the scope traces from current and voltage input. Then I stick my finger into the motor to stop the magnet. FG setting isn't changed. The spinner draws _more power_ when the magnet isn't spinning.

Think about that one for a while. I think this is the same kind of evidence (sic) that Steorn used in their initial claim of OU performance in their electric Orbo motor.

Video is still uploading but will be at
http://youtu.be/hdqiUOKLTVs
when it's done, probably in an hour or so.

@TK,

You mention in your new video that the coils draw more power when the magnet's not spinning. What happens to the power the spinning magnet generates in the power coils? You state "The spinning magnet is reducing power input to the system". Your rotor's at around 9k r.p.m. What do you imagine might begin to happen at around 25k r.p.m.? You heard me describe my inscrutable experience of sudden burst of acceleration, and apparent disappearance of input draw altogether.  I've had trouble explaining this: The inverse power to speed ratio ultimately results in maximum speed and zero amp draw, and a "Self Powering effect"! Thank you for confirming this relationship between increased speed and decreased amp draw.
 

TinselKoala

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13958
Re: Spinning magnets with radio waves.
« Reply #22 on: April 27, 2013, 02:46:55 PM »
That's kind of scary....

I am just thinking... it's a good thing I +don't+ have a sphere magnet on hand, I'd probably hurt myself. Spin that sucker so fast the nickel plating comes spalling off, a microsecond before it totally disintegrates and sets the house on fire.

TinselKoala

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13958
Re: Spinning magnets with radio waves.
« Reply #23 on: April 27, 2013, 02:51:38 PM »
You mention the coils draw more power when the magnet's not spinning. What happens to the power the spinning magnet generates in the power coils?
I suppose it's dissipated as heat. The waveform when it's driven by the square wave at speed is very interesting, showing a 20 v spike from the drive signal and a nice sinusoid at about 2 volts p-p that is the magnet's participation.

I really don't think this is the same thing as the increase in power that is seen when a commutated DC motor's armature is "stalled". Nor do I think that this motor's RPM is limited by CEMF the way a conventional DC motor is.

synchro1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4720
Re: Spinning magnets with radio waves.
« Reply #24 on: April 27, 2013, 05:52:46 PM »
TinselKoala breaking speed record, 19,800  r.p.m: Getting dangerous!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XgMrYPax5dE

MileHigh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7600
Re: Spinning magnets with radio waves.
« Reply #25 on: April 27, 2013, 06:29:52 PM »
TK:

You can hook your signal generator up to a big old beefy audio amplifier.  Knowing you I am sure you have one lying around.  Or a few visits to the Sally Ann and you might get lucky.  I once found a Harman Kardon late-1970s receiver that was about 110 watts per channel at a garage sale.  The thing weighed about 40 pounds and was a TANK.  It had a monstrous transformer and was high quality all around.

I think the basic dynamics are that the higher frequency you go the higher power you have to pump into the coil.  You have to overcome increasing air friction requiring more torque and more speed.  The coil is the stator for a motor, so it draws power. I am not sure if the increasing impedance of the coil itself comes into play, which we know increases as your drive frequency increases.  If that does come into play, that also requires a higher drive voltage.  Also, there must be increasing counter-EMF generated, so that also demands a higher excitation voltage.

Plotting say five points on a graph of maximum speed vs. excitation voltage would be interesting.

MileHigh

synchro1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4720
Re: Spinning magnets with radio waves.
« Reply #26 on: April 28, 2013, 02:22:24 AM »
Here's Alfacentauro's 300k r.p.m. video again. The reason I'm posting it is because on review, at 38 seconds into the video I noticed a screen posting that reports "5000 hz pure sine", so 5k hz pure sine wave spins at 300k r.p.m. That means the Sphere video posted by Pirate88179, is most likely sine wave driven too.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1oFzXOZnE8

TinselKoala

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13958
Re: Spinning magnets with radio waves.
« Reply #27 on: April 28, 2013, 02:34:14 AM »
TK:

You can hook your signal generator up to a big old beefy audio amplifier.  Knowing you I am sure you have one lying around.  Or a few visits to the Sally Ann and you might get lucky.  I once found a Harman Kardon late-1970s receiver that was about 110 watts per channel at a garage sale.  The thing weighed about 40 pounds and was a TANK.  It had a monstrous transformer and was high quality all around.

I think the basic dynamics are that the higher frequency you go the higher power you have to pump into the coil.  You have to overcome increasing air friction requiring more torque and more speed.  The coil is the stator for a motor, so it draws power. I am not sure if the increasing impedance of the coil itself comes into play, which we know increases as your drive frequency increases.  If that does come into play, that also requires a higher drive voltage.  Also, there must be increasing counter-EMF generated, so that also demands a higher excitation voltage.

Plotting say five points on a graph of maximum speed vs. excitation voltage would be interesting.

MileHigh
Yes, you are right about needing higher power for higher speeds, in my setup. Still, there's the finding that stopping the magnet spinning, at whatever input power and frequency, causes the input power to go up. 
At the frequencies we are dealing with....even the 5 kHz of the crazy 300000 rpm sphere.... simply switching a power mosfet or an H-bridge with the FG output will provide plenty of power, no big audio amp is needed. Besides, matching impedances for the output of the audio amp would be problematic.

TinselKoala

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13958
Re: Spinning magnets with radio waves.
« Reply #28 on: April 28, 2013, 02:36:20 AM »
Here's Alfacentauro's 300k r.p.m. video again. The reason I'm posting it is because on review, at 38 seconds into the video I noticed a screen posting that reports "5000 hz pure sine", so 5k hz spins at 300k r.p.m.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1oFzXOZnE8

Doesn't it look like the sphere is nutating or precessing as well as spinning? I think it would be very interesting to do some high-speed or stroboscopic photography of that setup.

synchro1

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4720
Re: Spinning magnets with radio waves.
« Reply #29 on: April 28, 2013, 03:14:15 AM »
@TinselKoala,

       Your current setup looks nearly identical to Alfacentauros. I am of the opinion that a bearingless magnet rotor will increase speed more then increased power. Frequency is increasing the speed of your axel rotor up to your present record, not power. Why not just pass a plastic sleeve through the air core and toss an inexpensive miniature cylinder magnet inside like Alfacentauro's for a stroboscopic view? We can see the cylinder rotor levitating in the video.

       Twinbeard speculates that extremely high speed rotating magnets create a vortex in the ether that accounts for his unexplainable output at 40k hz, by Bedini circuit, with a tiny 1/8" neo sphere. That's a mere 2.4 million r.p.m. He's approaching the RF envelope. Perhaps out of range for a sine wave spinner. Evacuating the spin chamber may be necessary to reach the next higher speed range. Alfacentauro reports "Strong wind". It's a mistake to raise power to overcome friction. Be prepared for some extrodinary effects up towards that speed range if you succeed!.