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Author Topic: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".  (Read 390997 times)

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #300 on: July 06, 2013, 01:18:27 PM »
Quoting Farmhand about this thread from an EF thread:

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/14165-solenoid-electromagnet.html#post233920

Quote
Please just ignore the posts by Synchro and Milehigh, they are extremists.

Farmhand's comment about my postings in this thread is pure junk trash talk.  My comments in this thread are sincere and real and they should not be ignored.  They are not extremest at all.  The guy has some issues.

Quote
Here is what I think the claims are saying. If the voltage is too low, then the distance between the capacitor "plates" is too great for the capacity to be effectively used.
 ie. If the conductors have insulation 5 mm thick then using 1 volt won't utilize the capacity very well and the capacity will not then contribute to the lowering of the resonance frequency. Kinda like trying to use 1 volt with a HV parallel plate air capacitor with 10 mm spacing between the plates, it won't work very well.
 
 It makes sense to me.

Farmhand's comments in fact make no sense at all.  Trying to draw a relationship between the capacitor voltage and the separation between the wire conductors (a.k.a. "plates") makes no sense at all.  There is no real relationship between the voltage and the separation, it's just a speculation that is completely off base.  The notion that "low voltage won't 'use' the capacity and the the capacity won't contribute to the lowering of the resonance frequency" is dead wrong.  The effect of the capacitance on the coil is completely independent of the voltage.

Quote
Kinda like trying to use 1 volt with a HV parallel plate air capacitor with 10 mm spacing between the plates, it won't work very well.

The above statement by Farmhand is a completely nonsensical statement.  Again, the idea that putting only one volt across a high-voltage capacitor "won't work very well" is ridiculous, it will work just fine.

What's also very clear in reading the EF thread called "The Solenoid/Electromagnet" is that there are indeed many misconceptions about the Tesla coil and people simply want to believe that the coil has some fantastical properties just because Tesla's name is attached to it.  A thread like this one on OU is worth reading and thinking about.  This reflex among Tesla enthusiasts that says, "whatever Tesla did must be fantastic and amazing and ahead of its time" is clearly the wrong way of going about things.  You should not prejudge something to be great.  Rather, do the investigation yourself with an open mind without preconceiving anything ahead of time.

MileHigh

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #300 on: July 06, 2013, 01:18:27 PM »

Offline sparks

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #301 on: July 06, 2013, 11:47:32 PM »
   I agree that alot if not all public information regarding Tesla's work are limited to his development of alternators-transformers and development of the dynamic capacitor.   By this imagine that you are able to dump a thousand horsepower into something.  That would be the work of a thousand horses for an hour.  This device fits in a suitcase.   You then transport the briefcase to your car.   There the oscillations are damped and you get your thousand horsepower hours out as you drive around town.  The Steven Marks device is very similar to the Tesla dynamic capacitor.   It is a dynamic capacitor.  It needs to be charged.   It's energy density makes solid hydrogen density about as dense as a cup of water at room temperature. 


Offline MileHigh

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #302 on: July 07, 2013, 08:50:34 AM »
More responses to Farmhand in the EF thread called "The Solenoid/Electromagnet."

Quote
The self capacitance is related to the voltage applied in Tesla's coil for
 Electro-Magnets due to the reasons I outlined about the capacitor plate
 separation. Some people who claim to be quite smart tried to deny that.
 But it is true and it fits conventional knowledge and is logical.

Again, this is wrong.  The self-capacitance is related to the geometry of the coil and the permittivity of the dielectric insulation between the windings.  It is not related to the voltage applied.  The voltage applied will determine how much energy can be stored in the capacitance.  This is not to be confused with capacitance and inductance interacting at a given frequency to cancel each other out.  This cancellation effect will take place independent of the applied voltage.

Quote
So to properly tune a Coil for electro-magnets, the voltage to be used is also
 a consideration. A coil wound for effect at 100 Khz using 10 000 volts will not
 work the same if 10 volts is used due to the capacitor plate separation
 (thickness of insulation or distance between turns) causing the secured self
 capacitance to be less.

One more time, Farmhand is wrong.  If you excite the coil with a 100 KHz, 10,000 Vrms signal to get the self-cancellation effect, then you can excite the same coil with a 100 KHz, 10 Vrms signal and you will get exactly the same self-cancellation effect.

When he says, "due to the capacitor plate separation (thickness of insulation or distance between turns) causing the secured self capacitance to be less," he is wrong again.   We know that the capacitor plate separation is a constant.  Therefore the self-capacitance will be a constant.   The self-capacitance does not change with voltage like Farmhand seems to be suggesting.

Anybody that doubts me can look up capacitance and see how a basic capacitor is constructed with two metal plates separated by a certain distance with the separation filled with a dielectric material with a certain permittivity.  You will not find any voltage variable that comes into play to determine the capacitance.  Don't get thrown off in your understanding of the basic building blocks of electronics because this has the potential to corrupt all of your subsequent learning.

Quote
This is evidenced by the way Radio coils are spaced to reduce self capacitance.

The above is a comment that does not make any sense.  The self-capacitance in radio coils will be ignored, assuming that we are looking at the example of an early 20th century AM radio.  The coils in an AM radio are all paired with capacitors or variable capacitors to make LC resonators.  The manufacturers of the coils for use in radios and the designers of radios were never concerned about the insignificant self-capacitance of their coils.  They were designing LC resonators for radios using external capacitors and the self-capacitance of the coils was never even considered.   This is another example of this phenomenon of reading too much into the patent like I have already stated.

For what it's worth, radio coils are normally spaced in a way to avoid mutual coupling between coils.  So it's the form of the external magnetic field outside the coil and possible undesirable mutual coupling and not the self-capacitance that is the prime consideration for the spacing and placement of coils inside an AM radio.

Quote
People can dispute whatever they like but time will tell all truths.

You sure as hell are right about that one.

Quote
Don't listen to the extremists. They avoid the valid points and dwell on, "it has
 no uses so the patent is pointless", or, "this coil makes free energy".

I am not an extremist, I am a practical realist.  Nor am I ignoring any valid points.  Right now the patent is next to pointless.  If you want an LC resonator you pick a coil and a capacitor to make your resonator, you don't need to investigate a self-resonating coil.  A resonator designed with separate L and C components will be more stable and superior to relying on a coil's self-capacitance.  Beyond that, nobody has offered up a practical application for this "series bifilar" coil and the question was posed by me on this forum more than a month ago.

You want even better advice?  Don't listen to people that you have some doubts about.  If you are not getting the right feeling or something doesn't seem quite right, then do the research for yourself if you are capable.   Trust your instincts and be honest with yourself about your ability to make these kinds of technical judgement calls.  Another possibility is to bootstrap yourself up the learning curve.   Or perhaps consulting with people that you do have a good feeling about and believe that they are competent with respect to the subject matter at hand would be another way to go.

MileHigh

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #302 on: July 07, 2013, 08:50:34 AM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #303 on: July 07, 2013, 09:05:15 AM »
More comments on Farmhand's posting on EF:

Quote
.S. The effect of the "cancelling of the effects of the self inductance" is a
 reactance thing, but it is not limited to AC excitement, the coil can be excited
 with DC pulses at the correct frequency or alternating positive and negative
 DC pulses (less than 50% duty or less than a Square wave AC). What the
 patent does not relate to is Uninterrupted DC, uninterrupted DC after some
 initial time only faces the DC resistance of the coil anyway, so no need for a
 special coil, unless Pulsed DC is used or AC or alternating DC pulses.
 
 If a coil is pulsed with DC pulses at a random frequency the coil will exhibit
 reactance and the reactance can be cancelled if the excitement of the coil is
 done at the correct frequency for the effect to manifest.
 
 It's Tesla, 101. Using resonance effects.

When Farmhand says, "but it is not limited to AC excitement, the coil can be excited with DC pulses at the correct frequency" he is dead wrong.  For starters, "DC pulses" are actually AC from a circuit perspective.  You cannot equate an AC sine wave at a given frequency to a DC pulse train at the same frequency.  The coil will not react the same way to the two waveforms, even though they ostensibly are at the same frequency.  A square wave can be broken down into a series of separate frequencies, each one a sine wave.  The coil will react differently to each separate frequency and you get the final response from the coil by adding up all of the individual responses.  All of the sine waves with the exception of the fundamental frequency sine wave will result in some form of reactive response from the coil.

I just described the frequency-domain analysis.  The entire analysis for how the coil will react to a square wave pulse train can also be done in the time domain.

It turns out that "Tesla 101" is a little bit more complicated than some people think.  Note also that "Tesla 101" kind of has a feeling that somebody is trying to teach you something.   Please refer to my comments at the end of my previous posting about that issue.

MileHigh

Offline sparks

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #304 on: July 07, 2013, 09:55:24 AM »
   I would think that Tesla was having trouble with developing high voltage capacitors so he used the capacitance of the coil itself.  The coil is just a tank but the components are not discrete.  This would save on resistive and inductive losses in any shunts between discrete components.  If you take two sheets of aluminum with a seperator between same.  coil them up and drop them in some oil you have an oil filled capacitor.  You also have a bifilar wound coil.  You have mutual inductance as I would imagine electrons would be moving within the capacitor and give rise to magnetic field flux changes that would cause eddy currents in the foil.  All sorts of changes in the resonant frequency of the tank as the rlc values drift all over the place.  The necessity to monitor all the major components for values and adjust for changes in same.   Meanwhile the tesla bifilar wound tank suffered from few of these problems if any.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #304 on: July 07, 2013, 09:55:24 AM »
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Offline jbignes5

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #305 on: July 08, 2013, 02:48:35 PM »
   I would think that Tesla was having trouble with developing high voltage capacitors so he used the capacitance of the coil itself.  The coil is just a tank but the components are not discrete.  This would save on resistive and inductive losses in any shunts between discrete components.  If you take two sheets of aluminum with a seperator between same.  coil them up and drop them in some oil you have an oil filled capacitor.  You also have a bifilar wound coil.  You have mutual inductance as I would imagine electrons would be moving within the capacitor and give rise to magnetic field flux changes that would cause eddy currents in the foil.  All sorts of changes in the resonant frequency of the tank as the rlc values drift all over the place.  The necessity to monitor all the major components for values and adjust for changes in same.   Meanwhile the tesla bifilar wound tank suffered from few of these problems if any.


 You hit the nail on the head. He was having trouble with capacitors and Higher voltages. This is why he developed the coils initially. But if we look at the Pancake coils we will understand something quite remarkable about the coils. As with the JLN LAbs experiment there is something when the (cap coil) is used in an unconventional way. Even though the self induction is vastly reduced it still receives a signal at an amplified manner through induction. This is from the flat sides of the pancake coil. The amount of amplification is based on a few things. One is the capacitance of the coil and the other thing is the length of the wire of both parallel wires. Since we know capacitance is real and works like any real capacitor this is used to put power behind any signal the coil is tuned for, for output from the receiving bifilar pancake coil to load.


 As for the increased magnetic component I am designing aa simple experiment to prove this to any nay-sayer. It's there but most only play with solenoids and this won't be a prevalent as with the pancake design. The lengths of the coils must also be Long and the signals used must be 1/4 wave of that length or there about for the coils to have a resonant response.


 My first experiments with a cap coil were with regular caps and an outside signal being fed into a coil around the caps. Itsu did a small set of experiments with this and it led me to other experiments with a katcher coil and it's output being fed to the coil around the cap which energized the cap to a limited degree. But none the less it did energize the cap from outside of the cap. What JNL Labs did was to continue these initial tests with a different approach that others have tried in the past. Through induction from the flat side of the coils of a bifilar wound pancake coils they saw a greater response to induced power in the bifilar receiver coils which powered a load. As for the type of signal we need I have not gotten that far in my investigations of this bifilar design. Most investigations have been with inputting a signal directly into the coil and that is an incorrect way to view this coil. It is what is external to the coil that we must investigate and the coils response to that external environment. It is what is being put out and what is being received that we must investigate.


 What is the correct geometry of the input and output.
 Would a normal wire axial to the center of the cap coil net more in and out then we see with a traditional solenoid coil? How does a bifilar coil react to impulses applied to it in the normal fashion?
 Does the bifilar coil charge up faster then a traditional solenoid since self induction is cancelled from the bifilar coil?
 How does the bifilar react to impulses as apposed to an AC or DC waveform, both internally or externally?


 These are real questions that have not been asked and most certainly not been answered in the correct manner by most.
 I suspect that Kapanadze did ask these questions and found the correct geometry and method to use with a bifilar coil to amplify a signal and found a way to convert the response into real current for use from his devices. In all of his devices I see a common theme which is not a trick. That theme is TESLA. This is not hero worship it is a stated fact from MR. Kapanadze. All of his Tricks are just common Tesla methods. If it is true then looking at Tesla methods is what we need to do. There is nothing magical about Tesla's methods and nothing magical about Tesla. He was a doer and not an armchair scientist/physicist. Now we need to investigate, for real, what Kapanadze learned about Tesla's methods. How these methods can be applied to our lives to improve our lives should be the goal. Not disputing and fighting the claims in un-humanistic ways, we should be able to do this with dignity and basic respect for one another.


 I have shown many times before how Kapanadze and others have taken Tesla's methods and used them to an advantage. I have tried to explain these findings with an honest approach. Most of the time I have been accused of heresy to the dogma that is science today. I have been debased and attacked on a most personal way and I relish the attempts because I know there is truth behind me. Tesla felt the same. We just need to put aside our prejudices to the current proposed methods and look at it with fresh eyes and open minds. We need this as a society if we are to survive. Our lives are changing every day and we should be able to live without sacrificing our lives for money to afford the basics of life. In this day and age we should be able to live without toil and the forced "fight to survive". Life doesn't come at a price, it is a gift from the Universe. Living that life should not cost us our souls and our precious moments in that life. We should live to experience life and not be forced into slavery to afford that life and experiencing the worst of that life.


 So lets try to learn what Tesla and others were trying to say. Lets experience the wonder of life again and learn the true nature of nature.


 Peace to you all
 jbignes5

Offline sparks

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #306 on: July 08, 2013, 04:34:26 PM »

 You hit the nail on the head. He was having trouble with capacitors and Higher voltages. This is why he developed the coils initially. But if we look at the Pancake coils we will understand something quite remarkable about the coils. As with the JLN LAbs experiment there is something when the (cap coil) is used in an unconventional way. Even though the self induction is vastly reduced it still receives a signal at an amplified manner through induction. This is from the flat sides of the pancake coil. The amount of amplification is based on a few things. One is the capacitance of the coil and the other thing is the length of the wire of both parallel wires. Since we know capacitance is real and works like any real capacitor this is used to put power behind any signal the coil is tuned for, for output from the receiving bifilar pancake coil to load.


 As for the increased magnetic component I am designing aa simple experiment to prove this to any nay-sayer. It's there but most only play with solenoids and this won't be a prevalent as with the pancake design. The lengths of the coils must also be Long and the signals used must be 1/4 wave of that length or there about for the coils to have a resonant response.


 My first experiments with a cap coil were with regular caps and an outside signal being fed into a coil around the caps. Itsu did a small set of experiments with this and it led me to other experiments with a katcher coil and it's output being fed to the coil around the cap which energized the cap to a limited degree. But none the less it did energize the cap from outside of the cap. What JNL Labs did was to continue these initial tests with a different approach that others have tried in the past. Through induction from the flat side of the coils of a bifilar wound pancake coils they saw a greater response to induced power in the bifilar receiver coils which powered a load. As for the type of signal we need I have not gotten that far in my investigations of this bifilar design. Most investigations have been with inputting a signal directly into the coil and that is an incorrect way to view this coil. It is what is external to the coil that we must investigate and the coils response to that external environment. It is what is being put out and what is being received that we must investigate.


 What is the correct geometry of the input and output.
 Would a normal wire axial to the center of the cap coil net more in and out then we see with a traditional solenoid coil? How does a bifilar coil react to impulses applied to it in the normal fashion?
 Does the bifilar coil charge up faster then a traditional solenoid since self induction is cancelled from the bifilar coil?
 How does the bifilar react to impulses as apposed to an AC or DC waveform, both internally or externally?


 These are real questions that have not been asked and most certainly not been answered in the correct manner by most.
 I suspect that Kapanadze did ask these questions and found the correct geometry and method to use with a bifilar coil to amplify a signal and found a way to convert the response into real current for use from his devices. In all of his devices I see a common theme which is not a trick. That theme is TESLA. This is not hero worship it is a stated fact from MR. Kapanadze. All of his Tricks are just common Tesla methods. If it is true then looking at Tesla methods is what we need to do. There is nothing magical about Tesla's methods and nothing magical about Tesla. He was a doer and not an armchair scientist/physicist. Now we need to investigate, for real, what Kapanadze learned about Tesla's methods. How these methods can be applied to our lives to improve our lives should be the goal. Not disputing and fighting the claims in un-humanistic ways, we should be able to do this with dignity and basic respect for one another.


 I have shown many times before how Kapanadze and others have taken Tesla's methods and used them to an advantage. I have tried to explain these findings with an honest approach. Most of the time I have been accused of heresy to the dogma that is science today. I have been debased and attacked on a most personal way and I relish the attempts because I know there is truth behind me. Tesla felt the same. We just need to put aside our prejudices to the current proposed methods and look at it with fresh eyes and open minds. We need this as a society if we are to survive. Our lives are changing every day and we should be able to live without sacrificing our lives for money to afford the basics of life. In this day and age we should be able to live without toil and the forced "fight to survive". Life doesn't come at a price, it is a gift from the Universe. Living that life should not cost us our souls and our precious moments in that life. We should live to experience life and not be forced into slavery to afford that life and experiencing the worst of that life.


 So lets try to learn what Tesla and others were trying to say. Lets experience the wonder of life again and learn the true nature of nature.


 Peace to you all
 jbignes5

  I see value in just creating an electrical tank circuit that would be able to store electrical energy.   This would allow a huge and diverse source of "conventional" alternative energy sources to be Universally distributed.   If his magnifying transmitter was successfully deployed then we would be able to jump over the proposed hydrogen fuel distribution scheme and just put up magnifying transmitters everywhere.   When your source supply is not needed at your site it pops up in an oscillator whose vibrations are being damped at a load center.  The need to package and transport fuels completely unnecessary.  The need to string wires with huge self-inductance losses all over the place done with.  The need for unsightly microwave towers beaming highwattage emwaves into communities done.   (Tesla devised methods to hetrodyne information carrying frequencies on the power carrying waves)  This is literally decentralization of power generation.   Not a good thing in the eyes of various emperor wannabees.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #306 on: July 08, 2013, 04:34:26 PM »
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Offline jbignes5

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #307 on: July 08, 2013, 06:03:20 PM »

  I see value in just creating an electrical tank circuit that would be able to store electrical energy.   This would allow a huge and diverse source of "conventional" alternative energy sources to be Universally distributed.   If his magnifying transmitter was successfully deployed then we would be able to jump over the proposed hydrogen fuel distribution scheme and just put up magnifying transmitters everywhere.   When your source supply is not needed at your site it pops up in an oscillator whose vibrations are being damped at a load center.  The need to package and transport fuels completely unnecessary.  The need to string wires with huge self-inductance losses all over the place done with.  The need for unsightly microwave towers beaming highwattage emwaves into communities done.   (Tesla devised methods to hetrodyne information carrying frequencies on the power carrying waves)  This is literally decentralization of power generation.   Not a good thing in the eyes of various emperor wannabees.


 The problem with that solution is that without induction that is separate from the capacitance we have zero oscillations. The only point in including the capacitance is that it changes the kickback effect or in Tesla's words False currents. Self inductance or resistance to change is neutralized in the bifilar design so that any change is met with near zero resistance, besides the resistance of the wire. This lets impulses travel at faster speed then what they were put in.**explained below** If we follow Tesla on this route we realize that when something has an increase in speed it's energy value is also increased.


 Now if we look at the geometry and winding direction of the bifilar pancake:
http://www.teslauniverse.com/nikola-tesla-patents-512,340-coil-for-electro-magnets , we see that current flows from outside to inside of the coil, then goes from outside to inside yet again. All while reducing the self inductance by keeping theses conductors apart from themselves. This is what raises the capacitance and hence lowers the self inductance. This process also has a lot to do with how the energy pulls on itself in the capacitance. Since there are two conductors and each conductor must be either a negative or positive there is a definite direction to the current. Also the winding direction of the current or turns determines  the polarity of the magnetic field. With two wires flowing in opposite directions of the same current we can see it can get very complicated. The magnetic field would compound and become stronger, on not two wires but a very complex 3 component system. Let me explain.


 Besides the outside wires all wires in this coil are surrounded by two conductors. Check the patent and you can see this in the lower bifilar pancake coil. Since charges take time to flow this means charges would effect other charges flowing in the coil at any given point except for the outside winds. **** Not to mention that each conductor flowing in each direction would have an opposite polarity as given by your own physics (right hand rule)****. This is very complicated stuff and not any backyard technician would know much about that type of stuff unless he educated himself on a very great many things.


**** After further review I have to correct my mistake. Each coil flows in the same direction twords the middle. I am sorry about the mistake and fully take that statement back about opposite polarities. There is an attached picture #2 of the bifilar coil with color coding for the coils except I added something to think about. High voltage impulse emitter single turn coil around the bifilar with added ground nipple in the middle. The radial lines going into the center nipple(Blue & Black & Blue) are the e-field lines(blue) flowing twords ground.


 Not only is this very complicated there is another aspect that I wish to touch on and that is the subject of an e-field on the velocity of such charges flowing in the coil. Say a biasing high voltage e-field is applied to the environment around the coil. What effect do you think this would have on charges flowing on the inside of the coil? Given your own physics lets say a certain wattage is flowing in the bifilar coil. If this e-field gets induced into the coil would this change the wattage flowing out of the coil? What happens when you raise one of the components of the supply? The wattage would increase right? More current would raise the wattage and more voltage would do the same right? The e-field could be given a direction by including a way to concentrate that by including a grounding wire in the center of the coil right? This would concentrate the e-field and give it a way to stream across the bifilar coil raising the inducing voltage as it streams to the ground wire. The e-field can be created by a single loop around the bifilar pancake and the ground wire is the exit through the center of the bifilar. Now this ground wire shouldn't be very large at all, just a nipple could be used in the center because the bifilar pancake is 2d based. Where there to be multiple coils all in parallel you could use a much longer wire as a single source of the ground wire and reduce the wire resistance to near zero values. What kind of impulses could be used in a system like that? What kind of current do you think would be flowing in a system like that?


 Tesla even devised a better capacitor that was oil filled:


http://www.teslauniverse.com/nikola-tesla-patents-567,818-electrical-condenser


 These caps were designed for use extreme high voltages as with his impulse devices. In these devices it was merely to create an exciter like e-field around, lets say his bifilar coil for instance. if the e-field had a way to flow out of the coils center, what kind of effect would it have on the bifilar coil(s) as they were working? My guess and the guess of many High energy physicists say it would accelerate charges. ie The example of how a particle accelerator works. This is not fantasy as some say because if it was then particle accelerators would not work as seen today. This idea was started via Tesla through his death beam work. You might want to check out the open ended vacuum tube he designed just for particle accelerator weapon systems. This system was also used in generating huge currents when the particles slammed into copper plates that were grounded. The measuring device was in between the plate and ground. The ground in this case was the proverbial sink Tesla was talking about.

Below is the picture of the tube design:

 I will leave you with that to chew on for a bit.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #308 on: July 08, 2013, 09:22:10 PM »
Jbignes5:

I find your comments depressing and disheartening.  You have people that are beginners interested in learning and experimenting with electronics and they read stuff like you posted and it completely corrupts their understanding.

I can't tell you how many times I have looked at YouTube clips where people are fascinated with their experiments and they are convinced that they are doing something out of the ordinary but it's not true.  They are observing their circuit doing exactly what it is supposed to do and convincing themselves that they are seeing something that "conventional science" does not understand.  Part of that problem stems from reading stuff from people like you.

You just posted a big treatise on what you call a "cap coil" or what we decided to call a "series bifilar coil" on another thread.  So you have a lot to say implying that you think you know what you are talking about.

I will repeat the challenge that I made to you before:  If you think you understand how a coil works I will give you a ridiculously simple circuit that includes a coil.  I will ask you to explain what the circuit does.

If you can't answer the simple question about the operation of the circuit that includes a coil then I would suggest to you that you do some soul-searching because your two posts above are outrageous.

MileHigh

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #308 on: July 08, 2013, 09:22:10 PM »
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Offline sparks

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #309 on: July 08, 2013, 10:31:15 PM »
  Tesla said electrically that the Earth acted like a small highly polished copper ball.   Also in explaining his magnifying transmitter system he used the analogy of the Earth as a waterballoon with the mt a piston pump and a far receiver a piston pump also.  When the mt piston was forced down the internal pressure of the balloon would be increased.  This pressure could only escape through the far piston being forced up.   When the mt was relaxed the far piston would then return the mt piston to it's raised position.  I would think that if you pump electrons into the ground they would physically displace electrons surrounding the cathodic element.   So put the two together.   If he was going to hit the ground with lots and lots of negative charge carriers this would increase the pressure inside the copper ball.   He determined the capacitance of the entire Earth to be very small.  Microfarads or something.  This means it wouldn't take much current flow to fill her up.   Any further electrons accelerated into the cathode would result in a linear increase in the amount of charge residing in the copper ball.   This pressure would then be vented into receiver tanks whose oscillations when damped through a load resistance would furnish power.   He also noted that this damping of the load tanks would result in a decreased amplitude of the reflected wave proportional to the amount of wave damping.   Like a room full of tuning forks.
You stirke one and soon all the others are ringing.   Including one you touch.  The one you touch rings down because of the resitance to it's natural harmonic movement afforded by your hand.  The mt ringsdown faster because it isn't getting any oscillations back and needs to make another strike.  In Tesla's case lightning strike.

Offline jbignes5

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #310 on: July 09, 2013, 12:30:22 AM »
Jbignes5:

I find your comments depressing and disheartening.  You have people that are beginners interested in learning and experimenting with electronics and they read stuff like you posted and it completely corrupts their understanding.

I can't tell you how many times I have looked at YouTube clips where people are fascinated with their experiments and they are convinced that they are doing something out of the ordinary but it's not true.  They are observing their circuit doing exactly what it is supposed to do and convincing themselves that they are seeing something that "conventional science" does not understand.  Part of that problem stems from reading stuff from people like you.

You just posted a big treatise on what you call a "cap coil" or what we decided to call a "series bifilar coil" on another thread.  So you have a lot to say implying that you think you know what you are talking about.

I will repeat the challenge that I made to you before:  If you think you understand how a coil works I will give you a ridiculously simple circuit that includes a coil.  I will ask you to explain what the circuit does.

If you can't answer the simple question about the operation of the circuit that includes a coil then I would suggest to you that you do some soul-searching because your two posts above are outrageous.

MileHigh


 Frankly I don't care what you think. Lets look at what happened to someone on the cutting edge:


 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5ZgJBuq4XY


 This is exactly what you are doing.You like the professionals of the day assumed it was impossible without and experimental proof. You pose questions about a certain circuit that you know will fail the quest we are on. Always you talk about another thread that you fully understand this coil. You don't have any clue at all. Nothing in your explanations refute what I said besides you relating to this other thread...


 Like I said before I don't much care what you think, just like the man above who didn't listen to any of the professionals saying it was bunk, he really was the father of lasers. Now go bother someone who does care. I'm not here for you or anyone else but my own discoveries and experiments and to share such with others who do want to understand these things.

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #310 on: July 09, 2013, 12:30:22 AM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #311 on: July 09, 2013, 01:17:23 AM »
Jbignes5:

You are the one that doesn't have a clue at all.

You are citing a very legitimate example about a scientist on the cutting edge not being able to convince his peers, it happens all the time.  It's actually part of a healthy process and of course now science has embraced the LASER in all its forms.

The major problem is that you are trying to draw an analogy with what you are doing and the introduction of the LASER in the early 1960s and nothing could be further from the truth.  You are simply talking clueless pseudoscience junk.  So much of it in fact that it's not worth rebutting it point by point.

Nor are you talking about anything on the cutting edge, you are talking about an inductor.  This is a basic building block of electronics.  It's something that has been understood for more than a century.  So that means that someone from 1910 would look at your two postings about coils and think that you were living in a fantasy land.

The point behind my simple circuit and the question is to see if you can demonstrate to the readers the most basic fundamental understanding of how a coil works.  I am not suggesting the question to "fail the quest you are on," rather, I am suggesting the question because it is so basic and I know that you won't be able to answer it.   So you can talk on and on about all of the pseudoelectronics talk, but you can't answer the most basic question to show that you understand how an inductor works.  That's to make you think and also frankly to give the readers an opportunity to consider your whole pitch.  You are afraid of the question.

Finally, almost none of that mumbo jumbo you talked about in your two postings cold be verified on the bench, and by reading your prose it's obvious you don't have the bench skills to verify them even if you wanted to.

That's it Jbignes5, I am not going to force the issue.  My posting is a posting on principle.  You make a mockery of science and electronics and you aren't even self-aware or you are in denial.  I set the record straight for the readers and they can make up their own minds.

MileHigh

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #312 on: July 09, 2013, 04:17:08 AM »
Jbignes5:

You are the one that doesn't have a clue at all.

You are citing a very legitimate example about a scientist on the cutting edge not being able to convince his peers, it happens all the time.  It's actually part of a healthy process and of course now science has embraced the LASER in all its forms.

The major problem is that you are trying to draw an analogy with what you are doing and the introduction of the LASER in the early 1960s and nothing could be further from the truth.  You are simply talking clueless pseudoscience junk.  So much of it in fact that it's not worth rebutting it point by point.

Nor are you talking about anything on the cutting edge, you are talking about an inductor.  This is a basic building block of electronics.  It's something that has been understood for more than a century.  So that means that someone from 1910 would look at your two postings about coils and think that you were living in a fantasy land.

The point behind my simple circuit and the question is to see if you can demonstrate to the readers the most basic fundamental understanding of how a coil works.  I am not suggesting the question to "fail the quest you are on," rather, I am suggesting the question because it is so basic and I know that you won't be able to answer it.   So you can talk on and on about all of the pseudoelectronics talk, but you can't answer the most basic question to show that you understand how an inductor works.  That's to make you think and also frankly to give the readers an opportunity to consider your whole pitch.  You are afraid of the question.

Finally, almost none of that mumbo jumbo you talked about in your two postings cold be verified on the bench, and by reading your prose it's obvious you don't have the bench skills to verify them even if you wanted to.

That's it Jbignes5, I am not going to force the issue.  My posting is a posting on principle.  You make a mockery of science and electronics and you aren't even self-aware or you are in denial.  I set the record straight for the readers and they can make up their own minds.

MileHigh


"It's actually part of a healthy process and of course now science has embraced the LASER in all its forms."

Now see, this is where I have issue with some of your replies. You make it seem like everything has been found out about everything. In your statement I put in quotes above, you are claiming that everything about lasers and what they can be used for has already been done and there is nothing left to find. That is wrong. I see new things that lasers are used for all the time. Maybe there hasnt been for 2 months lets say. Does that mean there done and thats all? Well I guess so, till someone comes up with something new, when ever that happens. And it does. Your statement discourages innovation. It discourages possible discovery of new kinds of apple pie! lol

Is that statement something you want to stick with? Or does it need editing for correction? ;)

The same goes for bifilar coils. Not 'everything' has been tried yet. I mean like, is there only one kind of apple pie? Are there only a small number of types of apple pie? Is it impossible to bake an apple pie that might taste better than any apple pie ever made before? ;) Now, the books you might have read may say there are only so many kinds of apple pie, and thats all there is or can be. If we went to a baking forum, Im sure many would be up for the 'Can there be a new apple pie' challenge. ;) Would you reply to them calling them pseudobakers? Accuse them of bakery??  lol

Im putting in the time on this one and so far, lets just say Im not discouraged. ;)

Lets just say what I have learned so far, is what direction I need to go with it.  ;D


Mags


Offline MileHigh

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #313 on: July 09, 2013, 05:38:58 AM »
Magluvin:

You are reading into my simple sentence that you quoted and extrapolating and drawing the wrong conclusions.  I am fully aware that the photonics industry is amazing and new things are being developed on a daily basis.  In the 1990s I worked in the photonics industry and used to flip through Photonics Spectra magazine.  It was a "hard core" magazine and I mostly just read the headlines and flipped though it.   I did the search and this is what came up:

http://photonics.com/

Honestly, the whole photonics industry is absolutely mind blowing.  It's amazing to think how it just materialized out of nowhere (more or less.)

For coils, on the other hand, that's a pretty established and understood thing.  Many people that read this forum may not be aware that there is an entire magnetics industry and it has been around for a very long time.

http://www.intl-magnetics.org/aboutima.php

Seasoned professionals in the magnetics industry would read Jbignes5's postings and either laugh, or look for a straightjacket.

Here is the real point that I think sums it up nicely:  Any coil, and I mean any coil, will have it inductance and frequency response characteristics, and the associated stray capacitance characteristics, the DC pulse response characteristics, magnetic field pattern, etc.  Certainly there is room for a lot of variation when you look at those characteristics.  But the key point is that they are still all fundamentally coils and will work as per the differential and integral equations that define that two-terminal device.

Why do I say, "two-terminal device?"  Because when you strip it down to the bare bones, all that you have is two terminals and you can apply some sort of stimulus to those two terminals (pulse, AC, etc.) and then see how those two terminals respond.  You can put any kind of inductor across those two terminals hidden inside a black box and by observing how those two terminals respond you can deduce that there is an inductor connected to those two terminals.  (That's why I hate the fact that you guys call the Tesla cola a "bifilar" coil.)

So you can put any standard coil, or a Tesla series bifilar coil, or a Rodin coil across those two terminals and by making measurements you can determine that yes indeed it is a coil and then you can determine the other parameters.

In that sense, a "Rodin coil" or a "Rodin starship coil" are simply exercises in nonsensical folly.  The star points don't do much, they might add a smidgen of extra capacitance.  There is nothing that a "Rodin" coil can do that a regular coil can't do better and more efficiently.

MileHigh

P.S.:  Part two coming up.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #314 on: July 09, 2013, 05:58:46 AM »
Part two - just to make it more manageable....

Let's assume that there are some niche applications for the Tesla series bifilar pancake coil.  That's all fine and dandy, it just represents the application of coil technology to meet certain design requirements.   For example they use regular pancake coils to induce eddy currents into pots and pans in an induction stove.  That's great, but is it some kind of amazing thing that is "outside the norm of conventional electronics?"  The answer is absolutely not.

So my challenge stands, if anybody can demonstrate something totally amazing and out of the ordinary about the Tesla series bifilar coil, or they can come up with a special unique application that is outside the realm of "conventional electronics" then bring it on and we can discuss it.  If nobody can do that then my previous comments stand.  There is no magic to the Tesla series bifilar patent from the late 19th century, none.  Instead of studying the patent, you should be studying how an inductor works first to give yourself a foundation to work from.  The same applies to capacitors and transistors and MOSFETs.  I have seen people that have been building pulse motors for two or more years and they have an oscilloscope but they still don't know how to use their scope to check how well or poorly the transistor is functioning in their pulse motor.

But when you get into what Jbignes5 says about the Tesla series bifilar coil, most of it is ridiculous nonsense.  I dropped into a recent EF thread about the same stuff and about half of the posters are posting similar fantastical claims and they clearly believe what they are posting.

I am not here to save the world and in the final analysis I don't care, it's just a forum.  But there are some real principles involved and it's fun to state the truth and expose the people that try to sound authoritative for what they really are.  Look at the case of the person that got his hand ripped to shreds by the ball bearing motor.  Perhaps one day an amateur experimenter, egged on by someone like Jbignes5, will be be doing some crazy experiment with a big coil and emitting tons of RF noise.  On the other side of his apartment wall there will be somebody in bed  hooked up to some kind of neural stimulator and the RF noise will fry the neural stimulator and crash it.  Then the person hooked up to the now dead neural stimulator will have a brain seizure and die.  (Has anybody looked at Itsu's clips where he scrambles the brains of his modern DSO when he makes his spikes go too high in voltage?)

So seriously, to everybody, don't listen to Jbignes5's talk about inductors.  The guy doesn't even understand how one works.  I say this from reading many of his postings over the years and from my own technical background.  By all means have fun experimenting but don't listen to Jbignes5's crap.  Find other legit sources of information and have some fun.  There are literally hundreds of legitimate YouTube clips that teach you the basics about electronics.

MileHigh

 

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