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Author Topic: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".  (Read 390956 times)

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #285 on: May 30, 2013, 06:15:58 PM »
The real shocker is that Walt Disney and Nikola Tesla have a thing going on!!!!!    8)

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #285 on: May 30, 2013, 06:15:58 PM »

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #286 on: May 30, 2013, 08:10:36 PM »
Hi TinselKoala,

Quote
the fact remains: you get out what you put in, minus losses.

I would refer to a paper from Nichelson (you may have read it: http://home.comcast.net/~onichelson/VOLTGN.pdf ) where he also tested two coils, albeit they were not pancake but solenoid types (it does not matter though as Tesla wrote). Nichelson measured the voltage gain for the single wire and the bifilar solenoid coils and found the voltage gain of the bifilar coil was 5.39 times higher than that of the single wire coil while the calculated voltage gain gave 0.57 times as high only.
You can see the measured voltage gains, plotted on a scale of 0 - 1 for both coils in the figure below from the above paper: the bifilarly wound coil has Vin/Vout ratio of 0.98 at 11 MHz self resonant frequency while the single wound coil has Vin/Vout ratio of 0.18 only, at 19 MHz self resonant frequency.

So his findings (Vin/Vout=0.98 for the bifilar) can confirm your above quote, unfortunately  8) . Among some questions I consider one question maybe the most interesting: how the single wire solenoid (or your single pancake) would perform if it were tuned to the same frequency the bifilar coil has its own self resonant frequency (11 MHz in the above example), by using a suitable tuning capacitor in parallel with the single coil?  Somehow I "feel" the bifilar coil would still win (by not much though) due to its distributed type 'tuning' capacitance, albeit wire insulation (dielectric qualities) may also have a role in that.
Any chance you may dig out those 'ingredients' from 2008 for some more tests on the two pancakes?

Thanks, Gyula

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #287 on: May 31, 2013, 01:36:10 AM »
Unfortunately those coils are in Canada and I'm not. So I'll have to make a new bifilar to match the pancake I already have. I did do some tuning tests with air variables on those older coils but nothing really quantitative, and I can't really recall anything coherent about that testing now. But I'll be working on the issue over the next several days, and I'll let you all know what I observe.

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #287 on: May 31, 2013, 01:36:10 AM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #288 on: May 31, 2013, 01:40:06 AM »
Gyula,

I have never played with a network analyzer like the HP3577B.   The closest I ever came to that was playing with a frequency spectrum analyzer.   It appears to be a device that puts out an excitation signal which typically will sweep a sine wave over a given frequency range on an output port.  Then on an input port it will record the response to the excitation and produce things like gain and phase plots.  In the spec sheet they mention how a typical application might be to measure a filter response and make sure the attenuation at a given excitation frequency is within some kind of programmable tolerance.

I am under the impression that the output port is 50 ohms and the input port is either 50 ohms or it is high impedance.  However, from the spec sheet I read it was not clear for me.

All that being said, I have "issues" with the paper and suspect that yet again, it's the people that are writing the paper that are the issue and not the equipment itself.

For example, when they talk about the "gain" they seem to be implying an impedance divider network where the coil is one element and a one ohm resistor is the other element.  Of course there is no one-ohm resistor anywhere to be found and no impedance divider network.

Then, what they refer to as the "calculated voltage gain" for each coli is in fact nothing more than the impedance of each coil in "reactive ohms."

Then, they use the measured resonant frequencies of each coil for the "voltage gain" calculation.   Since the "calculated voltage gain" for each coil is nothing more than the reactive impedance for each coil where each coil is modeled as a pure inductor only.  But when you start talking about resonant frequencies you are _not_ talking about a pure inductor only, you are talking about a series or parallel LC circuit.

Then when they discuss the ratio bifilar/single they are comparing the impedance ratios of two pure inductors at two frequencies.  Back to the same conundrum of mixing pure inductance with two different frequencies that are based on LC resonance.

I am not feeling it for that paper at all.  I am seeing some amateurs playing with a sophisticated network analyzer and crunching numbers together that don't really make any sense.  That's a phenomenon that I have seen several times before.

I have no doubt that the HP network analyzer will show distinct differences between the two types of coils.  However, the "voltage gain" number crunching that they did in that paper does not smell right to me at all.

Going back to TK's experiment, there at least he is in the ballpark for finding differences between the two types of coils.  He is using a spark gap so that's exciting the coils with a lot of high frequency content and there indeed, the capacitance can and will come into play.  That's distinctly different from imagining that a series bifilar coil is going to make a big difference in the operation of a pulse motor.

MileHigh

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #289 on: May 31, 2013, 02:02:21 AM »
I can't argue with that either.
 :-\

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #289 on: May 31, 2013, 02:02:21 AM »
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Offline Farmhand

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #290 on: May 31, 2013, 03:15:38 AM »
But as it says in the patent and as is logical, it depends on the inductance and the capacitance of the particular series connected bifilar wound coil as to the frequency of excitement that will cause the resonance (which is true for all coils), no matter what the application, if the frequency of excitement is compatible with the inductance and capacitance of the SB coil so that resonance is produced in the coil, or the coil is excited at the frequency of resonance, then the difference will be there.

Seems to be an insinuation that some people think a HF coil will show the benefit when excited by low frequency. A higher frequency coil requires high frequency excitement and a lower frequency coil only requires lower frequency excitement as is well known by most, to get resonance we need to excite the coil with the correct frequency. Of course.

Cheers

Offline sparks

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #291 on: May 31, 2013, 08:28:45 AM »
  I can understand how by use of resonance we can store energy.  Not unlike a battery or a catapault of a flywheel-etc.  The part I don't get about Tesla and his magnifying transmitter is his claim that the natural medium offered no resistance to really high potentials at high frequency.   What he may have been doing is creating plasma emanating out from his terminal in the air.   This would greatly increase the mass in play.  The plasma would electrically extend the terminal.   I don't see him creating a plasma construct from radiator to receiver without encountering huge amounts of difficulty.  But he could make one big ass sky conductor.  By excluding any sharp edges or defects his sky terminal would not create the lightning bolts he is famous for.  In fact the guys who have those sharp little pipes hanging out of a Tesla transformer are using Tesla's safety circuit.  I have created a weird plasma thing before.  It isn't bright white crackling zig zag lightning looking stuff.  It is  more like a flame.  I used an iron coil (by chance) mid-tapped with the anode of an old tv set attached to the middle.  It created ion wind at least a foot away.  The flames were coming out of both ends of the iron wire and bowing towards each other along a smooth circumference.  I imagine if I put information riding the hv flyback somehow the flames would have danced.  I gotta repeat this experiment again.  I've had this old microwave oven sitting around just too busy to get past the one way screws built for guys like me.  If tesla did make a huge antennae made out of plasma instead of conventional metals,  any wave activity in the plasma would act just like wave activity in an antennae mast.  I haven't seen any broadcast antennae's 2 or 3 miles high with a 20 mile radius at the top.  I really don't know what the fuck he was up to in NJ but I believe a metal object like an airplane flying over that tower would have let go a couple of electrons and look like a ship lit up with St. Elmo's fire right before the crackler blows the mast to shit.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #291 on: May 31, 2013, 08:28:45 AM »
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Offline forest

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #292 on: May 31, 2013, 08:49:54 AM »
I think Tesla wanted to rather supress plasma  ::)  Wasn't that the famous spikes whcih killed DC generator operators ?

Offline sparks

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #293 on: May 31, 2013, 10:29:11 AM »
I think Tesla wanted to rather supress plasma  ::)  Wasn't that the famous spikes whcih killed DC generator operators ?
  Definitely within the transmitter core.  Arcing between turns would have resulted in eddy currents (lightning currents) and destruction of any dielectric used to insulate the secondaries.  You can have a dark plasma.  Most metals that we consider conductors are room temperature partially ionized plasma.  My logic path is that he needed a big tall antennae and that it would be impossible to construct such an antennae so he ionized the air.  The only other thing I can think of was that he was trying to use the intervening dielectric  (atmospheric gasses) for the dielectric and excite the receivers like we excite secondaries when we couple an ac circuit to another circuit  via a condensor sandwiched between the two circuits.   His terminal= capacitor plate a- the air=dielectric, the receiver terminal=capacitor plate b..  This I can see happening but he constantly referred to rendering the ambient medium conductive.  Maybe he considered current as the information conveyed between two points in space charged to different degrees or electrically polarized. There is some information being conducted between a charged cloud and Earth.  A highly charged negative cloud can make the Earth below it positively charged relative to those parts of the Earth not directly below the cloud.  It appears that the negative charge information of the cloud is conducted through space and moves electrons in the Earth without any electrons actually moving from cloud to ground.   Then again we have electrolytic capacitors too which rely on ionized stuff which you would find in a plasma.  This is why I am confused.  Was he using electrostatics or electrodynamics?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #293 on: May 31, 2013, 10:29:11 AM »
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Offline profitis

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #294 on: May 31, 2013, 12:42:44 PM »
hey @sparks,did you get my pm reply about infrared.what do u think?

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #295 on: May 31, 2013, 11:46:16 PM »
Hi Milehigh,

I have done some calculations, based on coil data from the Nichelson paper I referred to above.

Given: air core coil OD=4"   and number of turns=43

I looked for the possible wire diameter the coils were wound because I disagreed with the impedance divider network you supposed whereby the coil is one element and a one Ohm resistor is the other element in the divider network (see my EDIT comment below).

So I found from the calculations that the length of the wire (any coil was wound from) was 13.72 meter. Then I looked up wire gauge tabelle with electrical resistance values and figured that Nichelson must have used OD=0.56mm (copper) wire, the nearest awg is #23 (0.57mm).

The reason I disagree with your voltage divider idea (see EDIT)  is that while it is true Nichelson et al used 1 Ohm in the denominator of the "voltage gain" formula but now it is clear (for me) that the 1 Ohm came from the coil DC resistance.  Further, if you have a look at Figure 1 in the above paper, the network analyzer (generator and receiver) ports were directly "bridged" with any one coil during the measurements, there was no 1 Ohm resistor used (see EDIT).  I looked up a manual for the HP3577B and its generator output impedance is 50 Ohm, its receiver input impedance can be chosen to be either 50 Ohm or 1 MOhm with 30pF parallel capacitance. (It is very reasonable to assume that they used the 50 Ohm input for the receiver side too.)

Now there is one more thing: have you noticed since then that the formula they used for calculating the voltage gain is nothing else but the Q of a coil i.e. XL/R  (inductive reactance divided by the wire resistance)?  You mentioned that the calculated voltage gain was the reactive impedance for each coil.

I think my above calculations and deductions are correct (if you notice any issue, or disagree,  please comment).

Gyula

EDIT  Where I inserted the  EDIT above, I somehow avoided to consider that you eventually stated: "Of course there is no one-ohm resistor anywhere to be found and no impedance divider network."   Sorry for this.  All the other things I wrote I consider still valid.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2013, 11:33:45 AM by gyulasun »

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #295 on: May 31, 2013, 11:46:16 PM »
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Offline Farmhand

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #296 on: June 01, 2013, 12:07:02 AM »
  I can understand how by use of resonance we can store energy.  Not unlike a battery or a catapault of a flywheel-etc.  The part I don't get about Tesla and his magnifying transmitter is his claim that the natural medium offered no resistance to really high potentials at high frequency.   What he may have been doing is creating plasma emanating out from his terminal in the air.   This would greatly increase the mass in play.  The plasma would electrically extend the terminal.   I don't see him creating a plasma construct from radiator to receiver without encountering huge amounts of difficulty.  But he could make one big ass sky conductor.  By excluding any sharp edges or defects his sky terminal would not create the lightning bolts he is famous for.  In fact the guys who have those sharp little pipes hanging out of a Tesla transformer are using Tesla's safety circuit.  I have created a weird plasma thing before.  It isn't bright white crackling zig zag lightning looking stuff.  It is  more like a flame.  I used an iron coil (by chance) mid-tapped with the anode of an old tv set attached to the middle.  It created ion wind at least a foot away.  The flames were coming out of both ends of the iron wire and bowing towards each other along a smooth circumference.  I imagine if I put information riding the hv flyback somehow the flames would have danced.  I gotta repeat this experiment again.  I've had this old microwave oven sitting around just too busy to get past the one way screws built for guys like me.  If tesla did make a huge antennae made out of plasma instead of conventional metals,  any wave activity in the plasma would act just like wave activity in an antennae mast.  I haven't seen any broadcast antennae's 2 or 3 miles high with a 20 mile radius at the top.  I really don't know what the fuck he was up to in NJ but I believe a metal object like an airplane flying over that tower would have let go a couple of electrons and look like a ship lit up with St. Elmo's fire right before the crackler blows the mast to shit.

I don't think he said that, do you have a reference "in context" for that claim ?

Tesla had two separate and distinct uses for the Magnifying transmitter, one was the transmission of signals which could be done at a higher frequency because of the need for less power and the other was the transmission of power which needed to be done at lower frequencies to avoid losses. Tesla often spoke of the losses.

A quote from Tesla "in context" showing the claim or it didn't happen. I think I know the text you refer to but I think it is most likely misunderstood, and to reply to a claim it needs to be considered in the context it was made.

discussing hearsay is pointless and causes more problems than it solves, IF you wish to discuss a claim made by Tesla or anyone else for that matter you should provide a quote "in context" containing the claim and a reference for where it was taken from. Otherwise it can't be verified as an actual claim made.

Cheers

Offline sparks

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #297 on: June 01, 2013, 01:25:01 AM »
@farmhand your right.   It may not have been in reference to his wireless transmission of power.  I took the liberty of assumption that he was rendering the natural medium conductive in the magnifying transmitter.  If you look at the progression of patents filed on transmission of energy without wires he first has a wire strung between transmitter and receivers.  Then the wire disappears. My best guess is that he had the high voltage minute duty cycle energy input to simulate the electric field flux changes of an ultraviolet wave.  This would ionize the air molecules rendering it into a plasma.  Then the low frequency information caused plasma wave activity.   No idea as to what plasma with low frequency wave patterns does as far as radiation of energy but it would be interesting to find out.

Offline Tito L. Oracion

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #298 on: June 01, 2013, 03:07:11 PM »
cheers ???

Offline sparks

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #299 on: June 02, 2013, 07:29:18 PM »
    I believe the information below may explain what Tesla was up to with the magnifying transmitter.  If we add the Earth into the transmission line standing waves would begin to develop in the Earth and extensions of the Earth like his receivers.  The voltage between nodes and antinodes developed within the reciever could be used to charge local capacitors.  Or the magnetic field changes associated with the currents inside the transmission line could drive various transformer secondaries.  This would effectively insert a dummy load to the transmission line superimposed oscillations.  This would allow more waves to leave the transmission line than are reflected.  Power then flows from scource to load.  http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_2/chpt_14/6.html

 

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