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Author Topic: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".  (Read 391005 times)

Offline sparks

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #150 on: May 19, 2013, 05:06:18 AM »
   My feeling on where the magnetic field of the Earth comes from is that the core of the Earth is not solid or liquid but is a piece of ejected solar plasmasphere spinning round and round.   The entire core is spinning and the electrons move as they would in a coil.  This causes magnetic field effects.  The big magnetosphere.  This plasma current is not uniform by any stretch of the imagination.  It appears to have taken on many states of angular momentum and polarity over the ages.  This may be due to solar activity where the solar magnetic field changes intensity and polarity.  The plasmasphere currents on the Sun create many magnetic poles.  Some people belive that they have found various rhythmic field strength changes but 8 or 20 minute cycles in the order of microteslas isnt very much power.

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #150 on: May 19, 2013, 05:06:18 AM »

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #151 on: May 19, 2013, 12:08:26 PM »
I just returned from the shop where I re-ran the experiment and captured nine still shots with my cell phone. The Tesla series wrap bifilar raises two long "trombone" steel paper clips, while the single wrap raises merely one. The single wire model dosen't even come close to attracting a second paper clip. Zero cling on the second clip, while the SBC cleanly raises two whole paper clips high over the test bench. Try charging the SBC like "Leedskalnin's" PMH first, then repeat the experiment with the SBC raised to full potential.
 ....

Please show me where did Tesla write his coil construction (defined in his patent) is to be charged first with high voltage and then use it with a lower voltage?

Did you check whether the nail manifested a remanent magnetism after your 12V charge up treatment? (I am not saying your nail manifested remanence magnetism, just a possibility for explaining your test result.)

When I did my own tests first with paper clips I noticed that due to the inherently very small touching surfaces of the clips the tests were not fully convincing for me, even though the difference in the number of lifted clips was evident,  and when I repeated the tests  I decided to change the clips to small sized nuts: http://www.overunity.com/11350/confirming-the-delayed-lenz-effect/msg357952/#msg357952 
So the small nuts have made the tests more convincing for me and more repeatable.  I suggest you also use small nuts or just cut up your "trombone" clips to many small (say 3 or 4 millimeter long) pieces and do the tests again. 

Here is your post from last night and I highlighted some words in your text I wish to answer:

I just re-performed "Tesla Coil's" bifilar nail experiment and got his 2x the strength results. Two problems: one; Lash winding and Two; Failure to energize the SBC are reasons I suspect that caused the other experimental failures. 

Precise and tight wire wraps are essential in this experiment. This is how Tesla earned a patent for an electromagnet coil. He had to demonstrate a practical advantage to his U.S. Patent examiners. Also, the SBC won't work cold! It has to be "Energized". I charged both the SBC and the single wire coil with 12 volts, and tested their field strengths with 6 volts. After energizing the SBC, it lifted two paper clips from the table surface, where the single wire coil would only attach one to the face.
"Lorentz" explained how this additional magnetic strength results from electron interaction in the SBC.

Well,  see the first picture Magluvin uploaded in his post here:
http://www.overunity.com/13460/teslas-coil-for-electro-magnets/msg359705/#msg359705
He has wound nice coils, precise and tight, no lash winding on his nails, right?  And he did find equal performance for the single and the bifilar (SBC) coils just like I did with my 'lash' winding.  So we got the test results independently from whether the windings were precise or lash, right? 

Gyula

Offline Farmhand

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #152 on: May 19, 2013, 12:11:17 PM »
Dang, Looks like I missed a lot, I got entranced by my experiments, I've made significant headway towards understanding what I'm doing. I found I had a bad diode which was causing bad wave forms and bad performance.

Tinsel, Your point (6) about resonance in a pulse motor, I think there is already people claiming resonant pulse motors but I'm not sure what is the actual claims. Some say resonance is just the return of energy that builds system potential or energy some say otherwise. I want it all, I want sine waves from pulses and energy returned when the frequency means no sine waves. In other words the harmonics should not interfere, they are processed in a way. It is difficult to get the visual out of my head for people to grasp I guess, I think you get it though.

I now have a nice "h" wave with a flat top without a charge battery and efficient high speed running with no load and no charge battery but using a charge battery is still a bit better and the reason is that the battery makes the currents look smoother, the return set up makes waves, but it just a matter of tuning the circuit. If the capacitor is small the voltage on the drain at the discharge portion of the "H" wave is high and short so the current is more intense but shorter (kinda like when a charge battery is used), and like with a battery, when really feeding in the power fast I get a steep climb in voltage on the drain which fires the neons and noise upsets the picaxe which shuts down the boost converter (I think) and that drops the input.
If I feed power in slower and speed the rotor up slower I get the fastest speeds with a charge battery followed closely by my return setup, but if I snub the fly back to the supply or around the coil it just will not accelerate.

I get the best result as far as loading goes when I use a larger return capacitance so that the drain voltage stays lower, however I intend to replace the NE2 neons with 220 volt gas discharge tubes from the drain to ground for now but I think that is a bad idea I think a safety valve from the drain back to the supply might be better, I think in my setup the circuit noise is causing me problems when it becomes too much so I need to keep it in mind.

I think for pulse motors they can be kinda like a self triggered (pseudo synchronous motor) because when I switch in the extra charging capacitance that the charging coils empty into the frequency and speed of the motor slow quickly as a result of the braking effect from the change in phase of the charging coil current. Kind of synchronous to it's circuit frequency.

I'll get a shot of one of my (h) waves. in a minute. I'll need to make another post to reply more anyway.

The way I see it even an ordinary pulse motor of any kind if the pulses make sine waves then I see no reason why it cant be smooth quiet and powerful. Now when I get to high speed the most noise comes from the windage on the rotor, it's full of holes, can hardly hear the pulsing, still not properly balanced though. I'm going to take most of the current video clips down because they are now obselete. I can easily out perform the 18 Watt fan that beat me last time. And considering my motor is much bigger it should beat it for efficiency with the same load. The main thing is I need the computer control, once I get command of all variables I think I can make it work well.

Head down making progress. I'll get the shot. First thing.

Oh I was also only running on three bangs a revolution too, my sensor was ignoring one reflector strip because it was too small.  >:(

Cheers

These wave forms show why I chose to use a resonant charging circuit and how I made the inductive energy return to try to match the effects of a charge battery.

It's quiet because the powerful rectangle pulses are just adding to a sine wave, the sine wave is driving the rotor.  :)

New clip of quiet running unloaded. (except for the wind noise sorry bout that).  :P
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrlL099cz2Q

...

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #152 on: May 19, 2013, 12:11:17 PM »
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Offline Farmhand

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #153 on: May 19, 2013, 02:38:44 PM »
Gyula, My Tesla transformer primary circuit doesn't use a series capacitor, ( I used to) but the setup now is as the drawing shows, but there is the spark gap in the positive HV line to the primary.
The spark gap can be two shorting bars out of phase or one. It's a very narrow series gap due to the design and I have three points to use on the gap two in phase and one out of phase so I can use two in series if I want, one is good.

Anyway the primary caps in a resonant charging circuit which is the diode the charging inductor (a MOT secondary) and the primary capacitors, if the resonance between the charging inductor and the primary capacitor is too low then the power is restricted. If the charging inductor does not have enough inherent inductance then the spark discharge can draw energy directly from the supply through the charging inductor then the primary. At reonance we get the highest voltage into the HV primary capacitors, the resonance is between the charging inductor and the primary capacitors all the time, but the capacitors are only in parallel with the primary when the gap is conducting, and never in series. Because of the circuit design.  This is true of all two way blocking switches in such an arrangement. But not one way (blocking) switches like mosfets. Maybe why IGBT is preferred dunno. Sorry for the highlighting.  :-[

I have series inductors.  ;)

We can also see by my drawing there that the infamous "Avremenko plug" is nothing more than half of a FWBR and a capacitor ect. . I use A FWBR in two halves which are exactly the same as the diode arrangement for an "Avremenko plug" .

Cheers

P.S. Most of the microwave oven transformers I have posses about the same figure as the supply voltage in mH ie. mine are 236 mH so with 39 uf I am close to 50 Hz resonance for the power factor to be good. It drops the line voltage a bit too I noticed whatever that means. But I can get reliable power measurements behind the 240 line filter at the control box.  So no real interference back through the supply lines. I think that's important to do without using a lot of resistors. For efficiency.


C7-C8-C9 and C10 are my primary capacitors there are no others. the primary swings freely, it's just one turn of two 6 mm copper tubes 5 mm below the secondary.

The thinking is that having primary "resonance capacitors" always connected would lower the "q" factor of the secondary which is high because of the 1 mm wire, very little resistance. I figure it at almost 4000. 760 kHz. I can't recall the exact measurements to post.
..



 

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #154 on: May 19, 2013, 03:05:14 PM »
Hi Farmhand,

Thanks for returning to the series or parallel cap topic at the Tesla primary coil,  (it has been okay with me) the fireing spark gap put the capacitor in parallel with the primary and the cap was discharged by the primary in that moment. What you show now in the drawing I understand too.
It is interesting you mention Avramenko plug as half of a FWBR and indeed the two diodes' half  seem to copy two 'plugs' but remember an Avramenko plug is driven by a single wire while the FWBR (or half of it) is driven by two wires,  so this difference must have a different loading effect on the source.

Gyula

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #154 on: May 19, 2013, 03:05:14 PM »
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Offline Farmhand

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #155 on: May 19, 2013, 03:14:58 PM »
Oh I see, yes, I think  when the primary capacitors are being charged they are in series with the supply and the charging inductor.  but when they are being discharged they are in parallel with the primary.

I think it's always both, unless the capacitor does not discharge Tesla style. Then a series capacitor is just a series capacitor.

It's the finer points that are difficult to explain, I see you understand it well Gyula. Misunderstanding on my part, sorry. :-[

Cheers

Offline sparks

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #156 on: May 19, 2013, 04:03:57 PM »
  I always thought that in a Tesla transformer oscillations in the primary are maintained by the power supply and coupled to the secondary through the capacitance of the gap.  As  the oscillations are damped in the secondary the energy stored in the primary is passed into the secondary via ac coupling of the two tanks through the capacitor the gap represents. This makes the whole transformer self-regulating and increases voltage to be distributed to loads far more efficiently than the pole pigs westinghouse was selling and continues to sell to this day.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #156 on: May 19, 2013, 04:03:57 PM »
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Offline Farmhand

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #157 on: May 19, 2013, 04:40:39 PM »
Tesla sometimes used arrangements such as mine, near the beginning of the Colorado Springs Notes he mentions that he sometimes did not bother with primary "resonance" caps he didn't put it quite like that, but he showed an arrangement with two primaries as well one primary with the resonance caps to reinforce the secondary but not directly powered and another primary coil with the spark gap in it's circuit. And he mentions that it's not always necessary if the primary rings well enough. When we use mosfets the primary is connected to the caps for half the cycle of the sine through the body diode when the current reverses.

 It can be done many ways, the objective is to get a wave with as little damping as possible by having a high "q" isn't it. What's the "q" factor of a primary of 1 turn with next to no inductance and resistance and with 14 nF (which is in series with the primary I think when resonating), I do not know. But from doing it I can see it's better not have it. in a rotary spark gap the gap is over an inch when the shorting bar is not there. I don't see how it can couple. My transformer works, did you see the video ? rather than have primary tap points on a multiple winding primary I used a "regulating coil" as Tesla did, and at the bottom of the secondary is another one for fine tuning to different experiments. In a low voltage setup it's easier to have tuning capacitors. but with HV coils are easier. My transformation rate does not change with adjustment I don't think. Transformation rate is about 1:200, with around 4 to  6 kV input mostly. Of course I don't think it's developing 1.2 million volts, quite a bit less than that more like a couple of hundred kV.

Don't be fooled by the wooden frame on the spark gap, it's dodgy looking but finely adjusted, at the end of a long run at high power and low break rate the shorting bars are just clipping the electrodes due to heat expansion. that's the noise at the end of the clip.  At higher break rates the power drops off because resonance in the charging circuit is passed. I can go to break rates over 2 or 3 kHz if I want.  :)

The hard white conductions heat up the gap more I think. The power is restricted to about 500 or 600 Watts. See the twirling of the arcs it makes double helix arcs and pictures can have like fingerprint looking type arcs due to shutter time which is kinda cool. The helices twist up then throw themselves apart if they don't find a hard conduction, if they do they seem to twist back down again..

Link again. Enjoy. Sound Warning it loud.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1nkJtrKCdFg

Cheers

Sorry to go off topic but the resonance aspect is very prevalent in Tesla's patents I think.

If I put another ground connected and tuned resonant coil near it the second coil lashes out at the first and it can light incandescent bulbs from what would be the primary of the second coil no problem. Tesla did those kinds of experiment so I tried it it works. I don't think there is much to doubt about the majority of what he says but only if he is the one who said it.

...





Offline synchro1

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #158 on: May 19, 2013, 05:02:52 PM »
Please show me where did Tesla write his coil construction (defined in his patent) is to be charged first with high voltage and then use it with a lower voltage?

Did you check whether the nail manifested a remanent magnetism after your 12V charge up treatment? (I am not saying your nail manifested remanence magnetism, just a possibility for explaining your test result.)

When I did my own tests first with paper clips I noticed that due to the inherently very small touching surfaces of the clips the tests were not fully convincing for me, even though the difference in the number of lifted clips was evident,  and when I repeated the tests  I decided to change the clips to small sized nuts: http://www.overunity.com/11350/confirming-the-delayed-lenz-effect/msg357952/#msg357952 
So the small nuts have made the tests more convincing for me and more repeatable.  I suggest you also use small nuts or just cut up your "trombone" clips to many small (say 3 or 4 millimeter long) pieces and do the tests again. 

Here is your post from last night and I highlighted some words in your text I wish to answer:

Well,  see the first picture Magluvin uploaded in his post here:
http://www.overunity.com/13460/teslas-coil-for-electro-magnets/msg359705/#msg359705
He has wound nice coils, precise and tight, no lash winding on his nails, right?  And he did find equal performance for the single and the bifilar (SBC) coils just like I did with my 'lash' winding.  So we got the test results independently from whether the windings were precise or lash, right? 

Gyula


I restored my laptop and plan to video tape and upload the experiment for you to let you decide what to make of it. The SBC stores it's pico farad capacitance in kilovolts and nano amps. A 100 turn SBC has 250,000 times the voltage potential between the wraps as a single wire coil. How do you imagine this power gets into the coil if it's not sent there? The high voltage spike from the magnetic field collapse charges the SBC to full potential. This happens automatically when the coil's pulsed, but you need at least one strong field collapse to generate the high voltage that's stored in the bifilar windings. The collapse dosen't effect the single wire coil because it lacks the storage potential. This high voltage storage capacitance eliminates reactance to current direction change in the coil windings, and generates double the field strength from the resulting Lorentz force. I got the experiment to work. You're asking me why yours caused trouble. Please put your thinking cap on!
 
Electrons are attracted to one another as they pass head on. There's no influence between them on the perpendicular. The head on electrons turn when there's no reactance to direction change from the high bifilar windings potential. Imagine two electrons orbiting each other. What happens? Think about it!

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #158 on: May 19, 2013, 05:02:52 PM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #159 on: May 19, 2013, 06:01:03 PM »

I restored my laptop and plan to video tape and upload the experiment for you to let you decide what to make of it. The SBC stores it's pico farad capacitance in kilovolts and nano amps. A 100 turn SBC has 250,000 times the voltage potential between the wraps as a single wire coil. How do you imagine this power gets into the coil if it's not sent there? The high voltage spike from the magnetic field collapse charges the SBC to full potential. This happens automatically when the coil's pulsed, but you need at least one strong field collapse to generate the high voltage that's stored in the bifilar windings. The collapse dosen't effect the single wire coil because it lacks the storage potential. This high voltage storage capacitance eliminates reactance to current direction change in the coil windings, and generates double the field strength from the resulting Lorentz force. I got the experiment to work. You're asking me why yours caused trouble. Please put your thinking cap on!

Well, you have to understand. We were doing the nail experiment as it was described. It did not work. So in reality your experiment has added ingredients as compared to the 'experiment' from the web page.

But if there is something missing, I would be happy to see it. ;)

Is your nail ending up permanently magnetized in the process of kicking it with HV? That is the first thing that comes to mind of what might happen.

Looking forward to the vid.  Before you stated  the use of KV, I thought you meant precharging the bifi like below.

Mags

Offline Farmhand

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #160 on: May 19, 2013, 06:04:45 PM »
Hi Gyula, I get you on the AV plug I think.  So if I may could I ask a couple of questions please. Would it be true to say that with the plug and capacitor there is a second instance of displacement current ? The first instance between the capacitor plates and the second instance in series with that capacitor's plates and whatever it can go to, maybe a tin plate or the bench or the ground/air ect. ? And if yes that the quality and value of the second capacitive coupling will give the AV plug it performance in a specific situation ? The plug uses the second displacement current path for the return ?

I think that would be the principal of the receiving of the wireless power transmission of Tesla's last patent. The displacement current path might be possible from the top of the tower's air capacitance to the Earth and the sending Plant's transformer is connected to both as well. There is just no diodes, resonant coils do it all.

Cheers

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #160 on: May 19, 2013, 06:04:45 PM »
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Offline Farmhand

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #161 on: May 19, 2013, 06:46:59 PM »
Doesn't an AV plug work like the drawing shows or similar ? If yes than the AV plug is really just half of a FWBR.  :) Nooooooo darn I think I drew the currents flowing the wrong way hahahaha  but I think you can see what I mean.

I think Tesla describes the effect in his high frequency lectures, he knew what was happening. And that he could use it.

I think if we had say a 1/4 wavelength of say 100 meters then if we place a resonant receiver coil there it would get maximum excitement, but if we place it at 3 x 1/4 wavelengths the wave would be more attenuated or down graded. He may have over estimated the efficiency of doing that at HF though 35 kHz max he said for transmitting at distance through the ground so as to avoid too much degradation of the current waves.

Does displacement current flow in EM waves ?

Cheers


Offline MileHigh

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #162 on: May 19, 2013, 07:37:52 PM »
Farmhand:

For the AV plug you are correct.  The key factors are the frequency of the AC signal in the single wire, the amplitude, and how much capacitive coupling the power source has to ground and the charging capacitor has to ground.  For every rising edge of the AC source, a tiny "puff" of charge passes through the forward diode to charge the cap.  For every falling edge, a tiny puff of charge flows through the reverse diode and that also charges the cap.  The tiny puff of moving charge though the diode is the displacement current.  It's the same current that is capacitively coupled to ground at both the source and destination ends of the current flow.  It's a two-wire charging system that only has one physical wire.

Sometimes you can have a an audible high-frequency oscillator on your bench and by bringing your hand near to it you can make the pitch change. Same idea, the capacitive effect of your hand in proximity to the oscillator will cause very faint displacement currents and affect the oscillator.

The higher the frequency and the higher the amplitude of the signal the larger and more frequent the puffs are and the faster the capacitor charges.  The stray coupling capacitance to ground will act like any capacitor and conduct AC more readily the higher the frequency.

MileHigh

Offline synchro1

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #163 on: May 19, 2013, 07:50:12 PM »
Well, you have to understand. We were doing the nail experiment as it was described. It did not work. So in reality your experiment has added ingredients as compared to the 'experiment' from the web page.

But if there is something missing, I would be happy to see it. ;)

Is your nail ending up permanently magnetized in the process of kicking it with HV? That is the first thing that comes to mind of what might happen.

Looking forward to the vid.  Before you stated  the use of KV, I thought you meant precharging the bifi like below.

Mags

A capacitor discharge would charge the coil well too. The final coil voltage is a function of the wraps. I just finished the video. I detected a noticeable amount of magnetic remnance in the SBC core, so I connected the nail heads untill the core attractions equalized. The experiment again demonstrated the 2x SBC magnetic force as before. I'll start uploading the video soon!

Tinselkoala could run the paper clip test experiment on his two kinds of coreless pancake coils, and help factor any magnetic core remnance issue out entirely.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #164 on: May 19, 2013, 07:54:31 PM »
Synchro1:

Quote
I restored my laptop and plan to video tape and upload the experiment for you to let you decide what to make of it. The SBC stores it's pico farad capacitance in kilovolts and nano amps. A 100 turn SBC has 250,000 times the voltage potential between the wraps as a single wire coil. How do you imagine this power gets into the coil if it's not sent there? The high voltage spike from the magnetic field collapse charges the SBC to full potential. This happens automatically when the coil's pulsed, but you need at least one strong field collapse to generate the high voltage that's stored in the bifilar windings. The collapse dosen't effect the single wire coil because it lacks the storage potential. This high voltage storage capacitance eliminates reactance to current direction change in the coil windings, and generates double the field strength from the resulting Lorentz force. I got the experiment to work. You're asking me why yours caused trouble. Please put your thinking cap on!
 
Electrons are attracted to one another as they pass head on. There's no influence between them on the perpendicular. The head on electrons turn when there's no reactance to direction change from the high bifilar windings potential. Imagine two electrons orbiting each other. What happens? Think about it!

I can suggest a good test for you.  If you have a compass and arrange your setup so the regular coil and SBC will try to deviate the compass from magnetic North you can then measure the relative strength of the fields from the two types of coils at different compass positions.  Say the compass is a foot away from the regular coil and when you energize the coil it deflects 30 degrees.  Now try the same thing with the SBC and see if the compass also deflects by 30 degrees.  This test will be much more accurate than picking up paperclips.

I will remind you that you need to know the current through the coils.  So you measure the DC resistance of the coil and then measure the voltage across the coil when you connect the battery.  You might not know if the battery is freshly charged or nearly discharged.  That will affect the battery voltage under load so you must read the voltage and then calculate the current.  Alternatively you can use your multimeter to measure current.  One way or the other, assuming that you are comparing two coils with the same number of turns and the same core material, you have to measure both setups and be sure the current through both types of coils will be the same when you do the tests.  You should present that data as part of your test results to your audience.

Looking forward to seeing your clip.  We can see if there is any evidence of very high voltage.

MileHigh

 

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