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Author Topic: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".  (Read 425928 times)

Offline conradelektro

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #765 on: January 22, 2014, 05:57:35 PM »
I just measured a strange result (see the attached circuit diagram):

I compared power output over the "100 Ohm load" with and without the parallel 10 µF cap. One measurement (calculation) was done after the "speed up effect" occurred. Then the cap was removed and the power supplied to the motor was regulated to get about the same output over the "100 Ohm load alone".

There is a phase shift of about 45° between Voltage and current if the cap is in place and absolutely no phase shift without the cap.

If one compares efficiency (power needed to drive the motor for approximately the same output over the 100 Ohm load), the circuit with the 10 µF wins easily. But the phase shift might falsify the result?

You can see the phase shift in this post http://www.overunity.com/13460/teslas-coil-for-electro-magnets/msg384371/#msg384371 (top right scope shot, speed up effect)

What influence does a phase shift between Voltage and current have on the calculated Watt?

Greetings, Conrad


P.S.: I looked it up, it is called power factor http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_factor.

Since the phase angle shift is 45°, the "active power" = 0.71 * "apparent power" , 0.71 is cos(45°).

So, the active output with the 10 µF in place is lower than calculated. Therefore the comparison is not valid.

Real comparison:

- 0.79 apparent Watt is only 0.79 * 0.71 active power, 0.56 active Watt at 134 HZ (motor consumption 7.3 V at 0.94 A) if 10 µF cap is in place

- 0.57 active Watt at 125 Hz (motor consumption 7.1 V at 1.07 A) without the cap (I just did the measurement)

So, the whole set up is slightly more efficient without the 10 µF cap, which is to be expected.

 

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #765 on: January 22, 2014, 05:57:35 PM »

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #766 on: January 22, 2014, 10:30:50 PM »
...
 For Ferrit core tests I have to wind two new identical coils (one monofilar and the other bifilar) over a 10 mm Ferrite core, what I want to do anyway soon. I can not fit my 8 mm Ferrite core into the big coil I am using now. And a 6 mm Ferrite core would rattle (that is why I did not buy it).
...


Hi Conrad,

Perhaps you could use a small piece of polifoam to wrap up the 6 mm ferrite core against the rattle?  just a suggestion to save you from winding new coils? of course you do as the most appropiate for you.

Okay on the scope probe placements, unfortunately I did not check it on your drawing...
Will make further comments tomorrow.

Gyula


Offline MileHigh

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #767 on: January 22, 2014, 11:44:51 PM »
Hi Conrad:

You notice in your scope trace where there is just the pure capacitor load (with no resistor) there is a standard phase shift of 90 degrees between the voltage and the current.  The current leads the voltage by 90 degrees.

You also noticed when it's a pure resistive load that the phase shift is zero.

When you add a capacitor to the circuit then the phase shift falls somewhere between zero and 90 degrees.  How many degrees difference is dependent on the size of the capacitor, resistor, and the frequency.  The higher in frequency you go the capacitor starts to predominate and takes more current.  That makes the phase shift move towards 90  degrees.

These things can be visualized with rotating phasor diagrams.  Here is one for a pure capacitor load at a given frequency.

Imagine there is a source of light directly over the phasor diagram.  The actual voltages and currents you will see on your scope are the "shadows" of the phasors on the "ground."
« Last Edit: January 23, 2014, 02:00:54 AM by MileHigh »

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #767 on: January 22, 2014, 11:44:51 PM »
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Offline MileHigh

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #768 on: January 23, 2014, 03:08:28 AM »
Conrad:

Quote
What influence does a phase shift between Voltage and current have on the calculated Watt?
If you have a phase shift that indicates that you have a partially reactive load.  You can argue that reactive loads are bad for your efficiency measurements because some of the energy is "ringing" and oscillating back and forth between the capacitor and the coil and being burned off in the resistance of the coil.  So that's power that is being 'stolen' from the load resistor.

Here is a thought:  With the capacitor as a resonator with the coil you can get more energy circulating and as a result get more power going to the load resistor.  However, nobody is saying that you can't simply remove the capacitor and change the value of the load resistor so you get more power in the load resistor.  Do you see what I mean?  You can argue that that is the true basis of an "even playing field" for comparison.

In the next posting I will cover using your scope to explore the coil in a bit more detail.

MileHigh

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #769 on: January 23, 2014, 03:47:45 AM »
Conrad:

In posting #765 you changed your scope probe configuration.  Your original configuration (on the left) is arguably better and I will explain why.

Let's take out the "big guns" and look at the currents when the switch is closed and do some basic circuit analysis.  You can see two current loops in the circuit.  You see the left rectangle in the schematic.  That's one current loop.  Let's call the first current loop I1.  For the right rectangle let's call it I2.  Let's also say that clockwise current is positive current for both loops.

Here is the key thing:  Look at the capacitor and imagine the two current loops flowing clockwise.  The current flowing in the capacitor is (I1-I2).  Can you see that?

You can see that channel 2 is monitoring I1.   You can see that channel one is monitoring I2 because it's across the 100 ohm resistor.  You don't have to worry about the capacitor, all information about I2 is provided by the voltage measurement across the 100-ohm resistor.

So you can see how the original scope connection allows you to monitor both of the currents I1 and I2.  So you can calculate the power being burnt in the coil and the power being burnt in the load resistor simply by looking at the two RMS voltages and crunching a few numbers.

Beyond that, the scope channel across the 100 ohm resistor monitoring I2 is also implicitly telling the you the current through the capacitor.  The current through the capacitor is proportional to the slope of the voltage waveform across the 100 ohm resistor.  (That's a big 'trick' about capacitors.  As long as you can see the voltage waveform across the capacitor, you don't have to measure the current, you can "eyeball" the current with very good accuracy.)  Also, the current through the capacitor is also (I1- I2) and your scope may be able scale down the channel 2 voltage measurement by a factor of 100 before it adds it to channel 1 and displays it on your display as a third computed trace.  That would be a second way to get the capacitor current.

I note that you changed the scope probe connections because the polarities of the signals was confusing.  That's what the "invert waveform" function on the scope is for.  Instead of changing the probe connections around simply invert the waveform on the display and everything will make sense.

MileHigh

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #769 on: January 23, 2014, 03:47:45 AM »
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Offline conradelektro

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #770 on: January 23, 2014, 12:33:22 PM »
@MileHigh: thank you for patiently explaining the basics, I am learning.

Greetings, Conrad

P.S.: This forum just lost a lot of its usefulness by not displaying the images.



Offline tinman

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #771 on: January 23, 2014, 02:11:21 PM »
@tinman: I looked at your "LAG", very impressive. Could you please post a link to more information. At what stage is the project?

I did not try to build a new motor, I use an ordinary 12 V DC motor to spin a diametrically magnetised ring magnet. And I put a 10 µF cap in parallel with a generator coil placed in front of the spinning magnet.

The big 10 µF cap (in parallel with the generator coil) serves to simulate a generator coil with a massive self capacitance in order to bring the (faked) self resonance down to a low frequency (in this case 52 Hz). According to my opinion this allows to simulate the so called "reduced Lenz drag" or the "speed up under load" (what your LAG is doing).

Have a look at my video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAXQBpuLu68 . I would be interested in your opinion, since you built a LAG.

Greetings, Conrad
Hi Conrad
Nice setup there,and a very simple wat to show the effect. I have always thought it works by releaving eddy current preasure within the generator coil-if there is such a thing?-just my way of trying to explain why it works. I think the motor is already loaded by the coils core,and when you draw power from that coil,it removes some of the drag from the core. A very simple test is to do what you did in the video,and record all measurement's, then remove the coil from the system,and see how much the motor draws at the same RPM as it was doing with the coil there. I think you will find that you dont gain as much as you loose with the coil in place.

The LAG works in a different way-i wonder who can guess how. I recon MH and TK will know how it work's. Anyway,i discontinued the project,as i knew what i wanted to achieve with it,and did just that. From that came the rotary transformer,and the results were much the same.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6xRcSkPYn4

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szpJ97M58G4

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #771 on: January 23, 2014, 02:11:21 PM »
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Offline synchro1

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #772 on: January 23, 2014, 08:25:28 PM »
@Conradelektro,


I'm finding your resonant output coil tests extremely interesting. I want you to examine in retrospect the dramatic effect attaching resistors directly to the "Synchro Coil" produced compared to adding them as a load to the resonant capacitor electrodes. The LC tank supplies the speed up effect at lower RPM as you demonstrated. I used the loop back to source as a load, but resistors would speed the rotor up too. Why not return to the "Synchro Coil" test, now that you have the advantage of your new prime mover and the great experience gained from your resonant coil experiments? Gauge a resonant electrolytic capacitor to resonate with the old bifilar coil you wrapped at running rotor RPM. Don't forget the diode. Then measure the coil output with and without the magnet core through the resistor load, along with any DLE.  


These new tests would go much further then anything I've been able to accomplish so far. Don't shun this challenge simply because your radical departure from my original design caused me to have a conniption fit. There's a great deal of power that's available for the discovery.


What is Magnetic Resonance? How would one determine the magnetic matching frequency of the LC rotor resonance? This is where my speculations grew kind of far out, positing a "Terahertz fractal". However, magnetic resonance is an established science. I imagine one could test for it simply by running a series of pulse frequencies through the magnet core "Synchro Coil" and watching the scope traces. Then, the capacitor value and rotor frequency could be determined. This is the combination I believe I achieved just with intuitive skill alone.  
« Last Edit: January 23, 2014, 11:11:45 PM by synchro1 »

Offline synchro1

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #773 on: January 23, 2014, 11:45:48 PM »
@Conradelektro,


I found a video that demonstrates exactly the effect we're looking for. This video is a definitive video:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1OrPCNVSA4o


This video is a simple demonstration of Magnetic Resonance. The motion of the B1 field is analogous to the spinning rotor. The diametric  core field takes the place of the compass needle with it's two polarities. The frequency of the B1 field is adjusted to the natural vibration frequency of the compass needle. Repeated weak pushes have a large effect when applied in synchrony with the natural oscillation. This is the resonant condition!


What is the natural frequency of the stack of core magnets? How do we determine this? If we can ascertain this frequency, and match the LC and rotor resonance to it, we can derive a formula to apply universally to all these types of output coils. Follow through with this set of experiments with me, and together we'll succeed in making a very positive contribution.


Remember how difficult it was to achieve magnetic resonance at first by physically positioning the diametric stack in proximity to the spinning rotor. Determining the precise frequency of the core stack resonance through testing should solve the positioning problem and deliver a reliable generating coil. I think simply test tuning by feeding an adjusted spectrum of pulsed DC frequencies into the "Synchro coil" with scope probes attached should produce some obvious resonant signal patterns at the correct hertz. That magnetic resonance frequency determines our rotor speed and capacitor value. You already got there with it just by physically testing. Now you're uniquely situated to really get some awesome results! Surly you can appreciate now the tremendous potential that's been driving me to pursue this project so persistently. Think of all the coal we can save!


Repeated weak pushes have a large effect when applied in synchrony with the natural oscillation. This is the resonant condition!
« Last Edit: January 24, 2014, 02:24:39 AM by synchro1 »

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #773 on: January 23, 2014, 11:45:48 PM »
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Offline synchro1

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #774 on: January 24, 2014, 04:52:32 AM »
Conradelektro's darning needle rotor was only spinning at around 20 hertz when he got the magnet flutter. Igor Moroz's reed switch diode loop back to source bearingless neo sphere, is powered off a 1.3 volt battery, and in the mild 20 hertz flutter range of Conradelektro's vertical needle rotor. Igor is recovering a substantial amount of his power pulse through a reverse biased LED because his low voltage is not jumping the reed switch as Magluvin pointed out. Any substantial output from a magnetic resonant coil would project a massive COP when coupled with a near self sustainer like Igor's; Especially if a very low CMF for DLE could be achieved with a resonant LC tank, for speed up under load. Weak pushes are all that are required:

Repeated weak pushes have a large effect when applied in synchrony with the natural oscillation.

Offline synchro1

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #775 on: January 24, 2014, 05:31:28 PM »

This Magnaformer video from Tinman is interesting because he wrapped two magnets from a microwave oven with an LC tank coil and capacitor. He surrounds that with a second core of soft iron and a power coil he's pulsing in the Kilohertz range. Very similar in design to the "Synchro coil", except he's pulsing the LC tank with a coil not a spinning rotor. The magnetic wave produces a continual current.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-sxM1eSaKmw


"This transformer (the Magneformer) uses the magnetic wave effect to produce a continual current across a resistive load while the induction coil is at it's rest state".

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #775 on: January 24, 2014, 05:31:28 PM »
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Offline synchro1

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #776 on: January 24, 2014, 09:43:01 PM »

Have a look at how "Marco's Dancing Magnets" behave when pulsed at the Shumman constant of 7.8 hertz by a kick coil: This translates into the relativly slow diametric rotor speed of 468 RPM.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUJza3l8rmU


Danial Nunez feeds his Rodin coils with this hertz range sound frequency to get his magnetic field effects! I got extraordinary results at 20 x 7.8 or 156 hertz pulsing a 12 volt filament bulb with a 555 timer circuit. The bulb emitted an aura of standing waves in the pattern of a magnetic field!  


I wonder what size capacitor Conradelektro would have to use to get his "Synchro coil" to resonate at 7.8 hertz?

Offline synchro1

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #777 on: January 24, 2014, 10:54:01 PM »

Here's a quote from Tinselkoala about the 7.8 Hz signal video:

"Yep. The fact that a mechanical resonance is stimulated by a 7.8 Hz signal is just a coincidence. The really interesting thing about that video is that the pulsations are being transferred to the magnets by a "core effect" toroidally wound coil. Recall that such a coil has very little leakage of the actual B field produced by the coil; it's all trapped inside the toroid. What happens when it is energised is that the core is driven into magnetic saturation, which _reduces_ the pull experienced from the external ring magnet. When the current is removed from the core-effect coil, the attraction is restored! And the polarity of the current is relatively unimportant. This seems exactly backwards from traditional electromagnet behaviour, and it is. The core effect needs more exploration as an energy transfer phenomenon, and can be used to make really neat pulse motors (Steorn's eOrbos from the Waterways demonstration, for example.)"

Wether the 7.8 Hz signal is related to the Shumman constant by coincidence or not, The resonance is in synchrony with the natural oscillation of the magnets. It would be interesting to place an Orbo type toroid at one end of the "Synchro coil" and pulse it at 7.8 Hz to measure the output from the coil.

The "Synchro coil" with the Orbo toroid would look allot like JLN's 2Sgen:



Offline synchro1

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #778 on: January 25, 2014, 04:30:21 AM »
Conradelektro's "Synchro coil" at 34 uH with the magnet core would need a 1.2245e+7 microfarad electrolytic capacitor to yield a resonant LC tank frequency of 7.8 hertz in series with a fast switching diode. The resonant rotor speed should be set at 468 RPM. This should cause a power generating magnetic oscillation, and finish the "Synchro coil". A resistor load attached to the capacitor electrodes may even create a speed up effect.

This "Synchro coil" could then couple with Igor's low voltage reed switch loop back to source bearingless neo sphere spinner. Any Lenz free power at all from that magnetic oscillation output coil would push the reverse biased LED back spike to source motor overunity.

It wouldn't take much for Conradelektro to finish and test the "Synchro coil" to these precise specifications.

Offline synchro1

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #779 on: January 25, 2014, 07:00:55 PM »
Increasing the LC tank resonance to 156 hertz, (7.8 X 20) would require a 50v 3uF electrolytic capacitor, in parallel with the series bifilar coil of 34uH and a fast switching diode in series with the capacitor. This would require a rotor speed of 9360 RPM. This is assuming, as I do, that the frequency of magnetic oscillation is a constant. I would like to see Conradelektro test the "Synchro coil" at both ranges with and without the magnet core, both for output through resistance and for speed up under load.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2014, 12:15:43 AM by synchro1 »

 

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