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### Author Topic: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".  (Read 470468 times)

#### TinselKoala

• Hero Member
• Posts: 13958
##### Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #60 on: May 10, 2013, 02:05:06 PM »
Found that site : http://www.kerrywong.com/2010/10/16/avr-lc-meter-with-frequency-measurement/

but I'm not sure if that similar version is working good... although it has a nice feature of calibration.
TinselKoala, can you merge both circuits to prepare one able to measure frequency,inductance, capacitance and maybe also parallel tank circuit frequency (external RCL circuit with the method of kick into ring down oscillation and count peaks as you described in some video) ?
That would be really useful device !
The arduino inductance meter I showed in the video places a known capacitor in parallel with the unknown inductance under test, then "pings" this tank, senses its resonant (ringdown) frequency, and then applies some math to calculate the inductance based on the pre-programmed value of the known capacitance. The measured resonant frequency is already displayed for each "ping" on the LCD display.

With a little cleverness and a rotary switch, one could adapt the same circuitry easily to use a known inductor to test an unknown capacitance. And the math performed during the calculation can be "calibrated" by allowing a variable to be controlled externally, by a potentiometer for example, so that the system could be adjusted to read accurately on a known standard.

Here's the circuit schematic for the "front end" that makes the tank circuit, pings it, and reports back to the Arduino. The two capacitors are the tank caps and the position of the unknown inductor is shown. So I'm sure that the clever builders here can make a switch arrangement that used a known capacitor, a known inductor, and allowed switching back and forth, so the tank could be set up to measure either an unknown cap or unknown inductor. The process of ringing the tank and measuring the frequency is exactly the same, so the only mod to hardware is the rotary switch and the known components. Tweaking the Arduino code is also trivial, and adding the pot for calibration only a slight bit more complicated.

To measure frequency of an external system a stand-alone implementation would be better I think, using different functions (more accurate) in the Arduino to measure the frequency.

My Arduino code for the TKInductometer as shown in the video is here:
http://www.mediafire.com/?bps78nwtkp5nwnp

Please feel free to play around, improve, criticize, etc. I think I showed the original source where I got the basic sketch in the code comments.

ETA: Now that I see the schematic again, I recall that the comparator I used is a dual unit, two comparators on a single 8pin DIP. So you could use both, one for the inductometer and the other for the capacitometer. Then you'd need a bit more coding, but you could eliminate the need for the rotary switch, just have a board with the two functions running out of the same chip, and select which one to use in the software, with a button or something.

ETA2: I used all scavenged parts, from old TV chassis, so the cost of this meter is essentially zero. You have to factor in the cost of the Arduino and the battery and the optional LCD display, but they are used for so many different things that the marginal cost of them in this meter is only pennies. If you are building a stand-alone meter you'd use a different Arduino designed for permanent installation (cheaper and smaller but runs the exact same program) and the total cost of the meter would probably be about 60 or 65 dollars, half of which is the LCD display.

#### forest

• Hero Member
• Posts: 4022
##### Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #61 on: May 10, 2013, 04:16:04 PM »
Your circuit has the nice feature - it can measure resonant frequency of already assembled RC circuit while the circuit from the link I posted can measure precisely inductance,capacitance and frequency. Having all those functions in one device would be an advantage, but I can't imagine the switch needed for switching all those functions...
I think from your circuit can be taken the method of kicking resonant circuit while from the link I posted the measurement of frequency. What do you think ?

Ooops, sorry for off topic. IF there is interest in such meter I will start new thread

#### TinselKoala

• Hero Member
• Posts: 13958
##### Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #62 on: May 10, 2013, 08:09:45 PM »
Your circuit has the nice feature - it can measure resonant frequency of already assembled RC circuit while the circuit from the link I posted can measure precisely inductance,capacitance and frequency. Having all those functions in one device would be an advantage, but I can't imagine the switch needed for switching all those functions...
I think from your circuit can be taken the method of kicking resonant circuit while from the link I posted the measurement of frequency. What do you think ?

Ooops, sorry for off topic. IF there is interest in such meter I will start new thread

Actually, the schematic you posted is pretty much the whole thing. It uses a slightly different method to ring the tank to read L and C (switched by the switch on the left) and feeds this to another comparator, which can also be switched to read frequency directly, again using the same method of detecting zero-crossings of the applied signal. It's all there !
But the complex LCD driver and a lot of the program code is unnecessary if you use the simple and easy to use pre-wired Parallax LCD. It only needs three wires (two power, one data) and very simple code in the arduino to send data to it.

#### gyulasun

• Hero Member
• Posts: 4139
##### Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #63 on: May 11, 2013, 12:41:25 AM »
Hi Mags,

I remember a measurement on a single and a bifilarly wound air core solenoid coils, done by Nichelson, using a HP network analyser. See this PDF file: http://home.comcast.net/~onichelson/VOLTGN.pdf from his site: https://sites.google.com/site/teslanichelson/

Interestingly, he compares the quality factor, Q=XL/R of the single and the bifilar coils and he calles the Q as voltage gain. His single wire coil (207.9 uH) gave a resonant frequency at 19 MHz with its own self-capacitance while the bifilarly wound coil (205 uH) gave him a resonant frequency at 11 MHz with its own self cap. This latter frequency shows that the series bifilar coil has a higher self capacitance than the single wire coil has because for the same number of turns and shape factor the bifilar coil has a much lower self resonant frequency than the single wire coil.

So he found that the calculated and measured voltage gains differ as many as 929%.  Practically the measured unloaded Q of the single and bifilar coils are involved and for applications that can preserve the high unloaded Q the bifilar wound coil seems to have advantage.
Nichelson also mentioned the bifilar coil in this paper too: http://home.comcast.net/~onichelson/Thermodynamics2.pdf  Page 6 and 7.  Quote from Page 6: "A bifilar coil is capable of holding more charge than a single wound coil. When operated at resonance, the distributed capacitance of the bifilar coil is able to overcome the counter force normal to coils, inductive reactance. It does not allow what Tesla described (Tesla, 1894) as the formation of 'false currents'. Because the electrical activity in the coil does not work against itself in the form of a counter-emf, the potential across the coil quickly builds to a high value."

I still have to understand and figure out how the high voltage gain can be utilized energy-wise in a bifilar coil? This is the same problem if you build a high Q LC tank circuit and try to preserve as high loaded Q as possible, to be able to access the circulating high current, no?  At resonance an LC circuit where the coil is say single wound, the counter force shown against  the AC input current is also absent, no?

For your recent coils, you could measure and calculate their self capacitances if you have a signal generator and a scope. (for signal generator a function gen or even a pulse gen made from the 555 timer could be used.)
Here are two links how the coils self resonant frequency measurement is done: http://www3.telus.net/chemelec/Calculators/Interwire-Coil-Capacitance-Calc.htm  and http://www.qsl.net/in3otd/inductors.html  The first link uses the coils self capacitance to get a parallel LC resonance while the second link uses two known capacitors to resonate the coils i.e. two caps for each coil.

rgds,  Gyula

#### gyulasun

• Hero Member
• Posts: 4139
##### Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #64 on: May 11, 2013, 12:57:40 AM »
.... can you merge both circuits to prepare one able to measure frequency,inductance, capacitance and maybe also parallel tank circuit frequency (external RCL circuit with the method of kick into ring down oscillation and count peaks as you described in some video) ?
That would be really useful device !

Hi forest,

Albeit it costs USD 69 plus shipping, here is an ebay offer for such meter (frequency, inductance, capacitance and power 1 nW-1 W):
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Frequency-Counter-Micro-Power-Capacitance-Inductance-Meter-L-C-F-Cymometer-/181016599062?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2a256e1a16

Gyula

#### forest

• Hero Member
• Posts: 4022
##### Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #65 on: May 11, 2013, 09:46:13 AM »
Yes, Gyula, as I said many times this is the trick. Once you knew how to eliminate reactive power from the context (well, almost) then there is only the power of LC circuit. Then you have to find other trick and your Q become COP.
That's the essence of real ou without explaining the theory....  (sorry,don't ask)
Took me 12 years to realize that but building a prototype is a hard task not finished yet. First I started from Meyer HHO and his clever videos, tried to build Lawton circuits, Daniel Dingel and many others which obviously don't work without the "backend". Then furtunately I started reading Tesla lectures (sometimes 10 times the same lecture)and old patents. To my surprise I found many ou devices originating from probable the same common concept.Or course I've spotted Bedini and Bearden and still cannot comprehend what they are doing ? If they knew the concept then why they are not telling it clearly ? It's obvious there are some factors which I start to see , to keep it in silence. Again, I don't have the concept proof yet, mainly because my health and ability is bad and I have no support. Quite common, do you agree ? all this free energy devices seems to arise from a garage experiments,to mention just a few guys : Richard Willis, Tariel Kapanadze, Melnichenko and so on.
I hope the future generations would not judge us too severely. The main problem is that "the concept" seems to be in exact opposite to the current economical world with all those corporations and oil/energy cartels.
Let me be a prophet for a moment and foresee that God wants us to change the whole concept of living which is now without any reason for the humanity itself (did anybody asked what is the living purpose of the whole humanity ?). All I know is that energy from ambient should be taken only in small quantities uniformly spread around the whole Earth. Answer yourself if that is in agreement with current world....

#### gyulasun

• Hero Member
• Posts: 4139
##### Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #66 on: May 11, 2013, 10:45:55 PM »
Hi forest,

Well you play the same game Tito does even if you say you have not built a prototype.

I wonder why you are certain your theory on extracting reactive power from a resonant LC tank is correct? And as you have not tested it, the chance is only 50%... no?

Are you familiar with Hector's rotoverter setup where he uses a capacitive divider (C1, C2 and C3) and a switching circuit to extract some part of the stored energy in the capacitors of the LC tank. Is your theory similar?

What do you lose on telling your theory?

Bearden etc have theories only there are no working setups they have shown nothing in practice so far with COP > 1.

What is purpose of humanity you ask? Someone just aswered it here (nothing personal against you):
http://www.overunity.com/13485/new-domain-in-deep-space-discovered-here-at-overunity-com/msg359877/#msg359877

Greetings,  Gyula

#### gyulasun

• Hero Member
• Posts: 4139
##### Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #67 on: May 11, 2013, 10:46:47 PM »
double post

#### Farmhand

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1583
##### Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #68 on: May 12, 2013, 05:13:27 AM »
In the patent where we says the coil has a greatly increased "capacity", he is referring to the energy it can store not the coils "self capacitance". So he isn't saying that the coils "capacitance" itself will be increased, he is saying that the capacity for the coil to hold energy  between the windings is increased because of how it's wound.

The 250 000 times as much energy is in reference to the increase in energy the capacitance holds because of the potential difference. It is an increase in the ability of a "coils" capacitance to hold energy. Not an increase in actual capacity.

I was tripped up by the different meanings of capacity. All the energy stored in the coil still is supplied by the supply that charges it.

However a bifilar wound coil does have a lower resonant frequency than the same amount of wire wound as a normal coil, so a bifilar coil does "also" have more inherent self capacitance. At least all the ones I have wound do as compared to the same wire length and core ect.  And the resonant frequency is lower, many people might say that a few pF capacitance is nothing but the effect it has on the resonant frequency is a lot.

I issue a challenge, can anybody wind a regular coil and a COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS, solenoid, spiral or other coil using the same wire length,size and core ect. and have them both end up at the same resonant frequency ?

I think not, I think the bifilar coil will have more self capacitance in almost every case, and the storing of the extra energy it can hold in the potential between the windings will take time.

Try it. See if it is possible to wind the same wire length as a COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS and get anything but a lower resonant frequency for the COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS.

It's an additional effect, be it wanted, intended or just coincidence. My test showed me a much lower resonant frequency, so the self capacitance was more. Regardless even if the self capacitance was the same it must take time for the extra energy stored in the bifilar coils self capacitance to be delivered. Mustn't it ? Capacitors don't charge to higher voltage instantly, it takes time.

Cheers

P.S. What I say is this. "Even if a Coil For Electromagnets had the same self capacitance as the control coil in my test in the second post, the COIL FOR ELECTROMAGNETS would still have a lower resonant frequency because the extra energy stored in the higher potential between the windings will take time to deliver". However I make that prediction based on Logic alone so I may be wrong. I won't believe anything but the test though so when someone has two "same wire" coils, one regular and wound as a coil for electro-magnets with the same self capacitance then it can be tested.

..

#### gyulasun

• Hero Member
• Posts: 4139
##### Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #69 on: May 12, 2013, 11:29:11 AM »
Hi Farmhand,

I agree with the 'capacity' and 'capacitance' clarification, albeit Tesla often used word 'capacity' where we now would use 'capacitance' but it was okay for his era.

There is one issue which is not yet a 100% clear for me (English is a second language for me).

It is the following quote from the patent:

If now, as shown in Figure 2, a conductor B be wound parallel with the conductor A and insulated from it, and the end of A be connected with the starting point of B, the aggregate length of the two conductors being such that the assumed number of convolutions or turns is the same, viz., one thousand, then...

So in case Tesla meant to use the same length of wire for conductor B, does not it mean he actually doubled the total (aggregate) length of the original winding made first from conductor A?   i.e. he meant to make another 1000 turns in parallel with conductor A which already had 1000 turns?  Alltogether he had 2000 turns in series, no?

Or the two conductors together had to have a total of 1000 turns, then this means that from conductor A 500 turns should be removed, right?  but he did not write it specificaly, it simply comes from the second part of the above quote?  (Because Tesla started with 1000 turns for conductor A in Figure 1 as a single wire coil.)

This is what I am unsure in. Is it a 100% sure for you that conductor A should be reduced to 500 turns and conductor B should have also 500 turns to get the total 1000 turns in the series (bifilar) connection?

...
However a bifilar wound coil does have a lower resonant frequency than the same amount of wire wound as a normal coil, so a bifilar coil does "also" have more inherent self capacitance. At least all the ones I have wound do as compared to the same wire length and core ect.  And the resonant frequency is lower, many people might say that a few pF capacitance is nothing but the effect it has on the resonant frequency is a lot.

In my Reply #63 above I included a link to a PDF file which tested the same situation you wrote in the above quote. The lower self resonant frequency is obvious for a bifilarly wound coil using the same amount of wire like the single wire coil:
http://home.comcast.net/~onichelson/VOLTGN.pdf

Thanks,  Gyula

#### synchro1

• Hero Member
• Posts: 4775
##### Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #70 on: May 12, 2013, 07:07:18 PM »
http://home.comcast.net/~onichelson/VOLTGN.pdf

The tester also reports a voltage gain that exceeds theory by 929.3%!

#### forest

• Hero Member
• Posts: 4022
##### Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #71 on: May 12, 2013, 10:18:08 PM »
Oh boy...the extra energy it the key. Why this is so hard to grasp ? Are we fishes without water or with very small brains ? Surely not.  Sometimes I hate scientist for the amount of support in money and appreciation they get while working on topics so little important that a herd of monkeys could solve in short time....while the most important question is still not answered (really?) ?

WHY IS THE EARTH ROTATING ?

P.S. Do you know it was one of problem which caused totall collapse of Tesla mind and he felt into deep and long sleep and breakdown.....

#### jbignes5

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1281
##### Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #72 on: May 12, 2013, 11:20:43 PM »
In the patent where we says the coil has a greatly increased "capacity", he is referring to the energy it can store not the coils "self capacitance". So he isn't saying that the coils "capacitance" itself will be increased, he is saying that the capacity for the coil to hold energy  between the windings is increased because of how it's wound.

The 250 000 times as much energy is in reference to the increase in energy the capacitance holds because of the potential difference. It is an increase in the ability of a "coils" capacitance to hold energy. Not an increase in actual capacity.

I was tripped up by the different meanings of capacity. All the energy stored in the coil still is supplied by the supply that charges it.

However a bifilar wound coil does have a lower resonant frequency than the same amount of wire wound as a normal coil, so a bifilar coil does "also" have more inherent self capacitance. At least all the ones I have wound do as compared to the same wire length and core ect.  And the resonant frequency is lower, many people might say that a few pF capacitance is nothing but the effect it has on the resonant frequency is a lot.

I issue a challenge, can anybody wind a regular coil and a COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS, solenoid, spiral or other coil using the same wire length,size and core ect. and have them both end up at the same resonant frequency ?

I think not, I think the bifilar coil will have more self capacitance in almost every case, and the storing of the extra energy it can hold in the potential between the windings will take time.

Try it. See if it is possible to wind the same wire length as a COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS and get anything but a lower resonant frequency for the COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS.

It's an additional effect, be it wanted, intended or just coincidence. My test showed me a much lower resonant frequency, so the self capacitance was more. Regardless even if the self capacitance was the same it must take time for the extra energy stored in the bifilar coils self capacitance to be delivered. Mustn't it ? Capacitors don't charge to higher voltage instantly, it takes time.

Cheers

P.S. What I say is this. "Even if a Coil For Electromagnets had the same self capacitance as the control coil in my test in the second post, the COIL FOR ELECTROMAGNETS would still have a lower resonant frequency because the extra energy stored in the higher potential between the windings will take time to deliver". However I make that prediction based on Logic alone so I may be wrong. I won't believe anything but the test though so when someone has two "same wire" coils, one regular and wound as a coil for electro-magnets with the same self capacitance then it can be tested.

..

How can you say one thing then say the exact opposite. Either it has more capacitance or it doesn't. Self capacitance means more capacitance. This is not negotiable. The increased capacitance is balancing the usual reactance of the traditional coil. This allows the bifilar coil to charge up instantly when compared to the traditional coil. A capacitance meter will not show the actual capacitance because of the self inductance of the coil and the resistance of the wire. You can not measure the capacitance of either coil because it is not a traditional capacitor which the meter is designed to measure. They can not measure the coils capacitance because of the additional features of the coils. This is why they come out the same because you are using a meter that is not designed to work with coils.

Now the charge and discharge of the bifilar coil is being enhanced by all of the factors in the bifilar coil design, especially when you compare it to a traditional coil. This was Tesla's understanding and he did this to reduce the cost and build into a coil enough capacitance to counter the slow charge and discharge of the regular coil to enable them to be used in his disruptive discharge circuits witch increased the conversion of the disruptive discharge into a magnetic component.

The reference to this is the Gegene generator from JLN labs. But the pancake has another feature most are overlooking and that is the ability to use both the upswing and down swing to convert into a one way flow via induction. This effectively doubles the power of the device when coupled with the traditional solenoid coil. Basically this forms an inductive diode and when coupled with a regular coil facilitates an increased output via this inductive diode.

I am also of the opinion that it increases the speed of a discharge hence the increased voltage component when the disruptive discharge is directly injected into the bifilar coil.

The capacity of the coil is vastly increased and hence the ability to discharge faster via this bifilar coil method. Since an inductive component is included it allows the capacitance part of the coil to be charged with little loss of the energy supplied to the capacitance.

One way to avoid the loss traditional capacitors see is to include an inductive coil before the capacitor. Well this is included in this design.

Just some ideas to kick around and a direction to better understand the bifilar method due to increased self capacity being discussed. Tesla was right in saying it the way he did. We just have to change our misconceptions to see it the correct way that Tesla was trying to teach us.

#### gyulasun

• Hero Member
• Posts: 4139
##### Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #73 on: May 13, 2013, 12:38:00 AM »

How can you say one thing then say the exact opposite. Either it has more capacitance or it doesn't. Self capacitance means more capacitance. This is not negotiable.
.... snip....

Dear jbignes5,

Self capacitance cannot mean more capacitance, simply it can only mean capacitance and it is different for every coil so values can be higher OR lower wrt each other.
Yes Farmhand first ponders on the amount of the bifilar coil capacitance but finally he deduced it must have higher self capacitance compared to the single wire coil because he mentioned its lower resonant frequency.  This latter is shown tested in the Nichelson paper I refered to above.

If you feel like commenting my question in Reply #69 above, please do so when you have some time.

Thanks,  Gyula

#### Tito L. Oracion

• Hero Member
• Posts: 2203
##### Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #74 on: May 13, 2013, 01:20:15 AM »
Oh boy...the extra energy it the key. Why this is so hard to grasp ? Are we fishes without water or with very small brains ? Surely not.  Sometimes I hate scientist for the amount of support in money and appreciation they get while working on topics so little important that a herd of monkeys could solve in short time....while the most important question is still not answered (really?) ?

WHY IS THE EARTH ROTATING ?

P.S. Do you know it was one of problem which caused totall collapse of Tesla mind and he felt into deep and long sleep and breakdown.....