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Author Topic: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".  (Read 459938 times)

Offline conradelektro

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #555 on: January 12, 2014, 08:09:32 PM »
I made new tests with the monofilar and bifilar pan cake coils.

A new video http://youtu.be/spQ9yLdb7v4 (measuring self resonance frequency with a "two turn exciter coil", about the same results as in the first video, see the attached circuit diagram of the measurement)


Then I made a "pick up coil test" with my vertical magnet spinner (see the attached photo). I showed the vertical spinner here

http://www.overunity.com/13852/self-accelerating-reed-switch-magnet-spinner/msg379520/#msg379520
http://www.overunity.com/13852/self-accelerating-reed-switch-magnet-spinner/msg379723/#msg379723
http://www.overunity.com/13852/self-accelerating-reed-switch-magnet-spinner/msg379943/#msg379943 (final drive circuit)

Remember the vertical magnet spinner has very little torque (strength) and therefore can be slowed down quite easily with a "pick up coil".

Both pan cake coils were put at exactly 18 mm distance from the spinning magnet (always only one coil in place) and the output over a 1 Ohm resistor was measured with the oscilloscope (true RMS) and the slow down of the magnet spinner was noted.

Both coils gave the same results (vertical magnet spinner was run with 15V from the lab power supply and always drew the same Amperage):

- Output over 1 Ohm resistor (at 18 mm distance from spinning magnet) was 34,4 mV (true RMS)
- Slowdown of spinning magnet: from about ~30 Hz to ~25 Hz (~1800 rpm to ~1500 rpm).

The magnet spinner was always run for several minutes to let it settle at the final speed.


Concerning the magnetic field produced by the two pancake coils:

Both coils did not produce a measurable magnetic field at 1 Watt or 10 Watt (compass and hall sensor A1101 http://www.allegromicro.com/Products/Magnetic-Digital-Position-Sensor-ICs/Hall-Effect-Unipolar-Switches/A1101-2-3-4-6.aspx). The coils soon became hot. Therefore, any meaningful "magnetic field test" has to wait till I move on to solenoid type coils with many turns of wire.


Concerning synchro1: it would be best if synchro1 stops posting in this thread, I certainly will not react to any of his posts. He has outdone himself and he annoys me very much.

Greetings, Conrad

Offline Bob Smith

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #556 on: January 12, 2014, 08:46:43 PM »

Here's the "Old Scientist" tuning a bifilar coil LC tank with a variable air capacitor:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CcxJogghxY

He concludes that a bifilar coil has strong harmonics but is not influenced in the same way a standard or parallel LC tank circuit would be, due to the "resonance between the capacitor and the self capacitance of the coil".


In other words, the virtual LCC tank resonance of the bifilar tank is not as easily influenced by interference like a standard LC tank, and more stable!
Yes, isn't this why the swbf coil is part of Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter? ie., there won't be reactive losses with a secondary.
Following your thread with interest, Synchro.
Bob

Offline synchro1

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #557 on: January 12, 2014, 09:45:40 PM »
@Conradelektro,

Quote from Conradelelktro:

"Concerning synchro1: it would be best if synchro1 stops posting in this thread, I certainly will not react to any of his posts. He has outdone himself and he annoys me very much".

Response from Synchro1:

Tut-Tut! Hurrrumph!

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #558 on: January 12, 2014, 09:50:17 PM »
Hi Conrad,

I looked at your new clip.  There is one cautionary note I want to mention.  The axis of your exciter coil and the axis of your main coil are at 90 degrees to each other.  We know that with this coil-to-coil geometry you are minimizing the interaction between the two coils because the magnetic lines of force from one coil will not interact with the wire turns of the other coil.  Of course the reality is that there will still be a weak interaction, and this weak interaction is still enough to excite the coil under test to observe the resonance frequency.  I don't want to prejudge you, you may have done this intentionally.  If you did not do this intentionally then note that you always have to try to visualize how the magnetic field from one coil interacts with the magnetic field from another coil when you are planning to do a test or build something.  Geometry is of prime importance and it can never be overlooked when you work with coils that are magnetically coupled to each other.

This issue is one of my pet peeves.  I have seen people that have been experimenting for years that are seemingly oblivious or ignorant of this issue.  This is a basic concept that must be understood by all experimenters working with coils and magnetic fields.  Skycollection is one of the experimenters that comes to mind for this issue.  I have seen several clips made by him with coils in physical arrangements that don't make any sense.  I don't care about being the "bad guy" when it comes to stating this.  If you don't speak up and correct each other and encourage each other to learn, then there is no progress and ongoing collective ignorance.  This issue is very similar to people adding magnets to magnetically bias some kind of transformer circuit.  In the vast majority of cases it makes no sense at all and actually degrades the performance of the transformer circuit.

MileHigh

Offline synchro1

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #559 on: January 12, 2014, 09:53:53 PM »
@Conradelektro,


You have to place the bifilar coil over an iron plate to get it to work as an electromagnet.

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #560 on: January 12, 2014, 10:11:46 PM »
Conrad:

I note that your new pick-up coil test showed no difference between the two pancake coils.  These are the expected results so all is good.

For the the test to measure the magnetic fields generated by the two types of pancake coils, I have a simple, easy, and definitive test to propose to you.  This test can naturally be done for the solenoid coils also.

Before we even start the test, logic is telling us that the two types of coils that you built (monofilar and bifilar) will produce approximately the same strength and pattern of magnetic field.

Before I start the discussion of the test, here is another important issue:

Quote
Both coils did not produce a measurable magnetic field at 1 Watt or 10 Watt

Although in theory there is a measure of logic in what you are saying because the power dissipated in the coil is related to the current passing through coil, it is an incorrect statement.

When you look at the magnetic field generated by a coil, the magnetic field produced and the power dissipated in the coil itself are two measurements that in the strict sense have nothing to do with each other.  The power dissipated in the coil is proportional to the electrical resistance of the coil.  The resistance of the coil has nothing to do with the ability of the coil to generate a magnetic field.  You must decouple these two concepts in your mind, they are unrelated.  The ability of the coil to generate a magnetic field is determined by the number of turns and the geometry of the coil and the amount of current flowing through the coil.   You can have two coils that are physically identical except one will have a resistance of one ohm and the other will have a resistance of five ohms.  If you put one ampere of current through coil A and one ampere of current through coil B the two coils will generate identical magnetic fields.  However, one coil will dissipate one watt and the other coil will dissipate five watts.

I hope that all understand this.  In the next posting I will discuss the simple test.

MileHigh

Offline synchro1

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #561 on: January 12, 2014, 10:17:40 PM »
@Conradelektro,

Here's how to do the test: Place the coil on an iron plate, place the iron plate on a pile of iron filings, then pulse the pancake coil. Then pick up the plate, filings and coil and put them on a scale. Then repeat the experiment with the monofilar and a different iron plate. This pancake coil is an "Impulse magnetizer" coil. Don't listen to Milehigh, he's just an imposter.          

Offline conradelektro

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #562 on: January 12, 2014, 10:18:49 PM »
Hi Conrad,

I looked at your new clip.  There is one cautionary note I want to mention.  The axis of your exciter coil and the axis of your main coil are at 90 degrees to each other.  We know that with this coil-to-coil geometry you are minimizing the interaction between the two coils because the magnetic lines of force from one coil will not interact with wire turns of the other coil.  Of course the reality is that there will still be a weak interaction, and this weak interaction is still enough to excite the coil under test to observe the resonance frequency.  I don't want to prejudge you, you may have done this intentionally.  If you did not do this intentionally then note that you always have to try to visualize how the magnetic field from one coil interacts with the magnetic field from another coil when you are planning to do a test or build something.  Geometry is of prime importance and it can never be overlooked when you work with coils that are magnetically coupled to each other.

MileHigh

@MileHigh: Very good point, I overlooked this issue completely. Thank you for taking the time to look at the video.

The reason why I wound the "two turns exciter" coil like that over the pan cake coil was, because it was the most practical and fast way to do it. Doing it in parallel would have needed some tape or other "fixtures".

I will glue little plastic posts on the back side of the pan cake coils so that I can wind two or three turns in parallel with the pan cake coil. I am sure it will work much better.

I am here to learn, please keep up the corrections, it is the only way forward for me.

Greetings, Conrad

Offline conradelektro

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #563 on: January 12, 2014, 10:34:25 PM »

When you look at the magnetic field generated by a coil, the magnetic field produced and the power dissipated in the coil itself are two measurements that in the strict sense have nothing to do with each other.  The power dissipated in the coil is proportional to the electrical resistance of the coil.  The resistance of the coil has nothing to do with the ability of the coil to generate a magnetic field.  You must decouple these two concepts in your mind, they are unrelated.  The ability of the coil to generate a magnetic field is determined by the number of turns and the geometry of the coil and the amount of current flowing through the coil.   You can have two coils that are physically identical except one will have a resistance of one ohm and the other will have a resistance of five ohms.  If you put one ampere of current through coil A and one ampere of current through coil B the two coils will generate identical magnetic fields.  However, one coil will dissipate one watt and the other coil will dissipate five watts.

I hope that all understand this.  In the next posting I will discuss the simple test.

MileHigh

@MileHigh: thank you for the explanation.

I want to state a simple example just to check that I really understood this:

- We use DC current.

- Lets say, I build two identical coils (dimensions, wire diameter, number of turns and core are the same).

- But the wire of one coil has a slightly higher resistance. So after the coils are wound, I measure the DC resistance and see that one coil has 60 Ohm and the other 80 Ohm DC resistance (just hypothetically, let's say the copper used for one wire had more impurities).

- So I put 60 Volt over one coil (the one with 60 Ohm DC resistance) and 80 Volt over the other coil (the one with 80 Ohm DC resistance).

- Through both coils 1 Ampere will flow (U = R*I , 80 = 80 *1, 60 = 60 * 1) , therefore the two coils will produce the same magnetic field.

Greetings, Conrad

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #564 on: January 12, 2014, 10:40:37 PM »
Synchro1:

Quote
Don't listen to Milehigh, he's just an imposter.

This is getting really tiring, so here is my breakdown on you:

1.  You are a fully-grown rational man and you are just playing the ass like some immature 14-year-old.  You get a charge (no pun intended) out of being disruptive and being a clown.  The "MIB backdrop" is just the framework that you use to keep up your shtick.  Why you as a fifty-something-year-old still do this is something I can't explain.

- alternatively -

2.  You have psychological problems.  You may be obsessive-compulsive or you may have some diagnosed psychological disorder.  You may have some form of borderline personality disorder.  So in layman's terms you are slightly nuts.

- alternatively -

3. Some people around here might actually believe that you are a plant from the National Security Agency or from the energy cartels.  Your mission here is to discredit all research into free energy by intentionally acting like an irrational and annoying buffoon that has almost no understanding of energy and electronics and magnetics.  You are here by design so that your nut-case behaviour and your murky, incoherent, and amateurish video clips will negatively reflect on all other researchers on this forum, and by extension on all of the other forums.

- beyond that -

4.  You clearly have almost no understanding of energy, electronics, and magnetics and you clearly have shown no desire to learn and improve yourself.  You are satisfied with your kindergarten-level of (mis)understanding and you have no mastery of the concepts and proper units to use when you discuss these things but that doesn't bother you at all.  You are basically akin to a Rosemary Ainslie when it comes to this type of research and experimentation and I don't get any sense that that's going going to change over time.  You can make a few coherent statements from time to time but they are the exception not the norm.

That's the reality as I see it and you are clearly doing nothing more then disrupting this forum and you seem to think that I am a good target for your ongoing inanity.

It's not a happy picture.  Perhaps you should just crack open a beer and watch the game on TV instead?

MileHigh

Offline synchro1

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #565 on: January 12, 2014, 10:44:39 PM »
@Conradelektro,


You need to discharge a nice size capacitor through the coil to permanently "Impulse magnetize" the iron plate along with the filings. Understand DUMBKOPF. You two knaves are just taking another shortcut around me!

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #566 on: January 12, 2014, 10:44:47 PM »
Conrad:

Quote
We use DC current.

- Lets say, I build two identical coils (dimensions, wire diameter, number of turns and core are the same).

- But the wire of one coil has a slightly higher resistance. So after the coils are wound, I measure the DC resistance and see that one coil has 60 Ohm and the other 80 Ohm DC resistance (just hypothetically, let's say the copper used for one wire had more impurities).

- So I put 60 Volt over one coil (the one with 60 Ohm DEC resistance) and 80 Volt over the other coil (the one with 80 Ohm DC resistance).

- Through both coils 1 Ampere will flow (U = R*I , 80 = 80 *1, 60 = 60 * 1) , therefore the two coils will produce the same magnetic field.

I am confirming for you that you are correct.

MileHigh

Offline synchro1

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #567 on: January 12, 2014, 10:50:16 PM »
The Tesla series bifilar has 250,000 times the hi-voltage potential between the wraps. This is the power the impulse couples with in the pancake to transmute the iron into a higher isotope! The two of you meatheads are just proving yourselves to be nothing more then a couple of nitwits in front of everybody again!

Myself, impersonating "Cyrano de Bergerac", finest swordsman in all of France, once again challenges you pedantic knaves to insure another wager with LLoyds of London! I knew you chumps would fall flat on your faces again like a couple of suckers!

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #568 on: January 12, 2014, 11:08:15 PM »
Conrad:

Okay, I have a very simple and effective test for you that will allow you to make a quite accurate comparison of the relative generated field strengths of the two types of coils when you pass current through them.

Here is the basic idea for the test:  You know that the coil will deflect a compass needle by a certain angle at some predefined distance and geometry for a certain amount of current flowing through the coil.  So all that you have to do is an A-B comparison between the two coils where you have the same physical setup (geometry) and the same current running through the two coils.  You can make the test for the compass needle deflection at one of more predefined distance and geometry configurations, it's up to you.  Will the two coils deflect the compass needle by the same amount for the same current?  That is the question.  If they do, then they are producing the same magnetic field.

Sound simple enough?   With the properly chosen setup(s) (distance and geometry) you will be able to make a very good A-B comparison test for magnetic field strength and direction between the two coils.  This will be a quite definitive test and should be quite easy to do.  We know that your two coils (monofilar and bifilar, pancake or solenoid) will have the same number of turns and the same geometry, which is exactly what we need for this test.

Okay, that was the preamble, let me do a separate posting with the actual test.

MileHigh

Offline conradelektro

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #569 on: January 12, 2014, 11:53:46 PM »
I could do the first magnetic field test with my compass.


- The compass is place in front of the pab cake coil (always in the same position and height) for both coils.

- When there is no current through the coil, the compass needle points true North (black number 270, red number 48).

- When there is current through the coil, the compass needle is deviated East (black number 315, red number 56)

- The compass needle moves in the opposite direction if the current flows through the coil in the reverse direction (plus and minus switched).


And of course, it is the same for both coils.
Again there is no difference between bifilar and monofilar coil.


The laboratory power supply is set to 13.5 Volt, there is a 100 Ohm resistor between the coil and the the power supply (to limit the current to 135 mA, DC resistance of both coils is 0.4 Ohm). The current is the same through both coils.

I set the power supply to 13.5 Volt because the compass needle then moves to a number (not somewhere in between the numbers on the compass scale)


So far, the only difference detected between the bifilar and the monofilar coil is the self resonance frequency (and consequently the self capacitance).

Bifilar coil: self resonance at 3.9  MHz to 4 MHZ (self capacitance 45 pF to 49 pF)

Monofilar coil: self resonance at 8,5 MHz to 9 MHz (self capacitance (8 pF to 10 pF)


More magnetic field tests tomorrow.

Greetings, Conrad