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Author Topic: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".  (Read 460558 times)

Offline conradelektro

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #540 on: January 10, 2014, 08:26:14 PM »
I made some more tests.

So far I get the impression that the classical circuit and a 1 pF decoupling capacitor for the scope probe works best, see my post http://www.overunity.com/13460/teslas-coil-for-electro-magnets/msg382419/#msg382419

The attached simplified "exciter coil" circuit also works well. It helps to put the second scope probe away to avoid clutter. Note that there is also the 1 pF decoupling capacitor for the scope probe. (This is TinselKoalas preferred way, may be with a smaller exciter coil of only two turns and a 50 Ohm resistor in series with the exciter coil. For lower frequencies, which means a coil with a higher self capacitance the 1 pF decoupling capacitor might not be necessary.)

I changed my video (because the one I posted yesterday did not feature the 1 pF decoupling capacitor and showed wrong measurements).


New video:
  http://youtu.be/fC84W0PIZoE (might take some time till it is completely uploaded)

I would say that since I use the 1 pF decoupling capacitor for the scope probe all measurements started to match to a high degree:


Self resonance frequency of monofilar coil is about 9 MHz, self resonance frequency of bifilar coil is about 4 MHz.

Self capacitance of the monofilar coil is about 8 pF, self capacitance of the bifilar coil is about 45 pF.


My question to all bifilar coil magicians: how can the higher self capacitance of a bifilar coil do magic?


Greetings, Conrad

Offline conradelektro

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #541 on: January 10, 2014, 09:53:48 PM »
"Exciter coil concept"..... the way I determine resonance frequency of big aircore inductors (Tesla coil secondaries) is to use a single turn "exciter coil" in series with a 50 ohm resistor, hooked to the FG output. This is simply wrapped loosely around the big inductor. The FG is not hooked to the secondary at all, just to the single turn exciter. The scope probe is then hooked to the top of the big coil thru 1 megohm or even 10 megs, with the scope probe ground at the base of the big coil. Then one tunes the FG for peak response in the scope, as usual. I've used this technique for years.

@TinselKoala: I tried that and it worked (bifilar coil self resonance frequency 3.9 MHz, monofilar self resonance 8.7 MHz). I had the feeling hat the method from my last post above worked better ( 1 pF cap instead of 1 M resistor). But that might have to do with my strange exciter coil.

After many tests, my favourite method has become the one from my video  http://youtu.be/fC84W0PIZoE  (also discussed in my post http://www.overunity.com/13460/teslas-coil-for-electro-magnets/msg382419/#msg382419 )

This is the classical method with a 1 pF decoupling capacitor in series with the scope probe over the "coil to be measured".

Greetings, Conrad

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #542 on: January 10, 2014, 11:29:02 PM »
Very strange effect with the MileHigh "resistor" trick:

The resistor trick works with the bifilar pan cake coil (Voltage over resistor is lowest at about 4 MHz) but it does not work with the monofilar pan cake coil.

May be the "resistor trick" only works with a certain self capacitance of the coil. The self capacitance of the monofilar coil is only 7 pF (self capacitance of bifilar coil 44 pF).

With the monofilar coil the Voltage over the resistor is higher at lower frequencies and continuously goes lower up to 20 MHz (the limit of my function generator).

May be someone has an idea what is going on. See the attached circuit diagram. The resistor has to be between coil and GND (in the classical set up it does not work even with the bifilar coil).

Greetings, Conrad

Hi Conrad,

I edited your circuit drawing to include and show the scope probes' and the pancake coil's  'parasitic'  capacitances and also included the generator's inner resistance, assuming 50 Ohm. So this is a kind of RLC network driven with the generator and possibly a Spice circuit simulator could surely show the frequency response, (the good old Bode diagram if you like),  taking the output across the 51 kOhm resistor.
The shunting effect of the 100pF or so probe capacitances (across the generator output and across the 51 kOhm) could explain that the output voltage continuously reduces as the frequency increases up to 20 MHz, shadowing the possible resonance of the monofilar coil around 9 MHz.  (A 100 pF capacitor has a reactance of cca 397 Ohm at 4 MHz and cca 176 Ohm at 9 MHz.)

A possible remedy to use MileHigh's suggested setup is to 'decouple' the scope input capacitances with a series low value coupling capacitor of 1-2 pF (the smaller the better).  Using the probe as a 10:1 divider (and not as 1:1) the probe's input capacitance can become as low as 10 to 16 pF, this could also help in this setup.

Nice and good work, thanks for all your efforts, pleased you have done it.

Greetings,  Gyula


Offline gyulasun

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #543 on: January 10, 2014, 11:55:54 PM »
....

Monofilar pan cake coil, self resonance around 9 MHz.

Bifilar pan cake coil, self resonance around 4 MHz.

So, my mistake, I thought that the approach from http://www3.telus.net/chemelec/Calculators/Interwire-Coil-Capacitance-Calc.htm was something new, but it is the classical approach with a 1 pF cap to shade the scope probe. Might be nothing new for the experts, but it took a while till I got it.
...

Hi Conrad,

You can of course call or refer to this measuring method as a 'classical' one but the use of the 1 pF coupling capacitor can only be useful up to the some MHz frequency range, it becomes a decreasing reactance value as you go towards the some 10 MHz range and higher  (at 10 MHz a 1 pF cap has 15.9 kOhm and at 20 MHz it has about 7.9 kOhm reactance).

The small difference between the results of using 1 MOhm and using 1 pF is explained by the fact that in the MHz frequency range resistors are not able to keep their original resistor value (measured at DC) because there is an equivalent shunting capacitor of a few pF (or maybe less) across their legs, (their equivalent circuit includes a parallel capacitor too) coming from their material and physical structure. Perhaps you could check your 1 MOhm resisor with your C meter to measure it, probably you would have to force the meter to measure C and not let it choose automatically the resistor range by itself.
Even a few kOHm resistor shows less resistance when you start increasing the working frequency towards the some hundred kHz and higher.  A possible solution to minimize this unwanted effect is to use several such resistors in series to reduce the resulting equivalent capacitance or using a parallel air core coil across one such resistor to form a parallel resonant LC circuit with the parasitic resistor capacitance i.e. to tune it out but this works at a single frequency of course.
The so called carbon resistors are the best frequency independent resistors, then the metal and the film resistors come.

Greetings,  Gyula


Offline MileHigh

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #544 on: January 11, 2014, 07:15:34 PM »
Conrad:

Another great clip!  You are in good hands with Gyula and TK for sure!  The home-made 1 pF capacitor solution really works well.  The "resistor trick" has it's limitations and the "improved classical" method seems to be the best.  More importantly, you are understanding the issues and the reasoning behind the different techniques.

Since we are dealing with such small capacitances, it's somewhat analogous to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle because you are affecting the system when you try to make a measurement on the system:

Quote
In quantum mechanics, the uncertainty principle is any of a variety of mathematical inequalities asserting a fundamental limit to the precision with which certain pairs of physical properties of a particle known as complementary variables, such as position x and momentum p, can be known simultaneously. For instance, in 1927, Werner Heisenberg stated that the more precisely the position of some particle is determined, the less precisely its momentum can be known, and vice versa.

TK:  Hey!  I "discovered" something that is actually a well-known technique.  So now I am officially part of the OU.com club!  lol

MileHigh

Offline synchro1

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #545 on: January 11, 2014, 08:08:50 PM »
@Milehigh,

Quote from Milehigh:

"So now I am officially part of the OU.com club!  lol"

Here you are caught fashioning more spit curls on your forehead!

That's quite a claim coming from someone who's been discrediting my ou claims on the "Self acceleration thread". How come you're dodging my recent comments over there?

Another thing; I never claimed the Tesla series bifilar Pancake outperformed the monofilar Pancake as an induction coil as you inferred. Neither coil has the correct dimension for an output coil, the face is too big, and the coil has no depth to capture rotor flux. I would never dream of using one for that purpose.

I maintained and proved by nail and paper clip test that the Tesla series bifilar worked twice as good as an electromagnet, which it was patented as. This is the coil's overunity characteristic. Conradelektro spun off the "Self acceleration thread" to test the bifilar Pancake coil's magnetic strength. You have turned his original aim into an exercise in personal esoteric fetish, with no practical application.  

You broke the circuit in my "Magnet Pump Coil" and redirected Conradelektro's talent and expertise toward a narcissistic venture of your own design, and away from a genuinely fruitful experiment. I want an apology for ruining the "Synchro Coil" test, and a Conradelektro test of the Pancake coil's magnetic strength.  

"In quantum mechanics, the uncertainty principle is any of a variety of mathematical inequalities asserting a fundamental limit to the precision with which certain pairs of physical properties of a particle known as complementary variables, such as position x and momentum p, can be known simultaneously. For instance, in 1927, Werner Heisenberg stated that the more precisely the position of some particle is determined, the less precisely its momentum can be known, and vice versa".

HEISENBERG??? This is just more "Quack Malarky" out of you to sound like some kind of "Savant". Let's do the electromagnet test and find out once and for all who the fraud is! Does half the resonant frequency in the series bifilar pancake coil result in in twice the magnetic strength? Let's try it now with iron filings and find out after two solid years of chicanery and legerdemain out of you.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2014, 10:41:39 PM by synchro1 »

Offline synchro1

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #546 on: January 11, 2014, 10:59:04 PM »

Here's something of broader interest; "Pancake Coils In Oscillation" by Skycollection:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ey7EXh8CsCo


Here's another pretty cool video by Slider2732, on "Simple Wireless Electricity System".
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSUGXCWIVoI

Slider2732's number II; Much more incredible with two electrodes in water acting as a transistor, and mains bulb lit through bifilar to ground:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaXRKLIrc8c

Offline synchro1

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #547 on: January 12, 2014, 03:08:05 AM »

Wise guy quote from Milehigh:

"My question to all bifilar coil magicians: how can the higher self capacitance of a bifilar coil do magic"?

This is how the series bifilar pancake does magic:

Imagine a large series bifilar Tesla pancake coil set upright on a jack palate. The palate locks to a saw tooth and runs up an inclined hill like an elevator. Take a locomotive with an induction motor on one wheel. We energize the Pancake coil close to an iron plate on the front of the locomotive, and inch the locomotive up the hill, then reposition the jack palate. When we reach the top, we release the locomotive and generate power to charge a battery on board with the induction motor turning backwards as a generator. A comparison between the input to the electromagnet series bifilar pancake and the battery charge on board the locomotive should be COP>1, or closer to 2 X OU.


Take a look at the equation below from Tesla's patent: The Tesla series bifilar generates 250,000 times the hi-voltage potential between the windings!

Offline synchro1

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #548 on: January 12, 2014, 04:19:54 AM »
Imagine a tube magnet inside a solenoid coil with two circular iron plates attached to each end by dowels. Add two Tesla serial pancake coils working as electromagnets in attraction facing the iron plates. The magnet tube oscillation from the alternating pancake coil pulses would generate a COP>1 closer to 2 x OU. This is why it's "FORBIDDEN SCIENCE" and targeted by "Petrophiles" like Milehigh!

This is the magnitude of my nail and paper clip test ramifications. I challenge Conradelektro to either substantiate or refute them with the iron filings test I've been clamoring for! Conradelektro is charged with the unique mission and requirements to scientifically confirm the feasibility of this kind of overunity generator. Does Conradelektro have the right stuff to rise to this historical assignment?


The generator might need a bundle of eight large one inch diametric magnet stacks one meter in length, with thick solenoid windings, with an axle on roller bearings because the pancake electromagnets may only be able to attract the circular iron plates a few millimeters in each direction! This would generate kilowatts with a few hertz frequency.

Offline Farmhand

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #549 on: January 12, 2014, 05:13:44 AM »
Imagine a tube magnet inside a solenoid coil with two circular iron plates attached to each end by dowels. Add two Tesla serial pancake coils working as electromagnets in attraction facing the iron plates. The magnet tube oscillation from the alternating pancake coil pulses would generate a COP>1 closer to 2 x OU. This is why it's "FORBIDDEN SCIENCE" and targeted by "Petro Nazi's" like Milehigh!

This is the magnitude of my nail and paper clip test ramifications. I challenge Conradelektro to either substantiate or refute them with the iron filings test I've been clamoring for! Conradelektro is charged with the unique mission and requirements to scientifically confirm the feasibility of this kind of overunity generator. Does Conradelektro have the right stuff to rise to this historical assignment?


The generator might need a bundle of eight large one inch diametric magnet stacks one meter in length, with thick solenoid windings, with an axle on roller bearings because the magnets may only be able to attract the iron plates a few millimeters in each direction! This would generate kilowatts with a few hertz frequency.

Synchro, the comment about MileHigh being a "Petro Nazi" is totally inappropriate, I am personally offended that such language be used. Please remove that comment and discontinue all personal insults, I know we all get uppity at times but getting personal is unnecessary and should not be tolerated. That in particular is overly offensive and must be rectified.

There is no magic in a series connected bifilar coil. It is what it is and the patent describes what it is and does. Case closed. Feel free to do experiments and present findings but also be prepared to back up what you say with more than insults.

By the same token I ask all that personal insults and opinions about peoples persons be refrained from without some history to back it up and some relation to the issues at hand.

Fair is fair we are all people.

Cheers

Offline synchro1

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #550 on: January 12, 2014, 05:30:56 AM »
@Farmhand,


I modified the insult for you! The patent says it's an electromagnet, and my nail and paperclip test proved it has twice the power of the monofilar! Case reopened!

The other thing is, it develops twice the power as a pulse coil running a diametric in attraction unlike a monofilar that produces a pole, and only attracts or repels one side of the diametric rotor! It's no better then a monofilar as an output coil, but it develops a total of "Four Times the Power" attracting both poles of a diametric and doubling the magnetic force! Understand?

Here's a video where I'm charging the source battery with a twin series bifilar Bedini, one for trigger the other for power, attracting both sides of the diametric sphere with a series bifilar for maximized power. I have a third spriral coil for output. I'm overunity with this setup!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asTs_iuUbuM&list=TL8Ml4KeDh0Pb8ie-4Fw09XSxAc6ltC6dH

So now I've termed the chronic cynics that haunt this web site as "Petrophiles". You apparently number among them.

Offline Farmhand

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #551 on: January 12, 2014, 10:51:46 AM »
@Farmhand,


I modified the insult for you! The patent says it's an electromagnet, and my nail and paperclip test proved it has twice the power of the monofilar! Case reopened!

The other thing is, it develops twice the power as a pulse coil running a diametric in attraction unlike a monofilar that produces a pole, and only attracts or repels one side of the diametric rotor! It's no better then a monofilar as an output coil, but it develops a total of "Four Times the Power" attracting both poles of a diametric and doubling the magnetic force! Understand?

Here's a video where I'm charging the source battery with a twin series bifilar Bedini, one for trigger the other for power, attracting both sides of the diametric sphere with a series bifilar for maximized power. I have a third spriral coil for output. I'm overunity with this setup!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=asTs_iuUbuM&list=TL8Ml4KeDh0Pb8ie-4Fw09XSxAc6ltC6dH

So now I've termed the chronic cynics that haunt this web site as "Petrophiles". You apparently number among them.

Listen here Synchro, and any other folks who want to insult others, if you guys want to turn this into an insult fest then lets get it on. I'm tired of it and I think it is high time the moderators banned the offenders. But since it is allowed to go on then everyone may as well join in and lets all forget about the technical side of things altogether.

Lets just insult each other based on our own perceptions of others motives or opinions.

By all means present the info you think is relevant, and those who disagree should present info to the counter if they wish, what I do not get is why people feel the need to get personal.

So let Chaos reign shall we ? Lets just all let loose and abuse the heck out of each other. It might serve as a well needed release valve for some.

I say we should at least get a bit inventive about it and try to hit as many nerves as we can, so as to damage each others psyche's as much as possible. We should also use trickery to try to confuse people as much as possible.

OK sounds like fun. Lets ruin another thread completely and fill it with BS and personal insults.

I tried.

..

Offline synchro1

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #552 on: January 12, 2014, 03:02:41 PM »
@Farmhand,

Quote from Farmhand:

"There is no magic in a series connected bifilar coil".

Do you have any idea how sick and tired people are of reading this kind of redundant and tedious nonsense? The coil charges a cell phone battery from ambient RF background radiation. Take a look at Slider2732's video where he lights a mains bulb between a Tesla series bifilar pancake coil and a ground off a "D" cell battery. What's behind your sort of pejorating bias if not an odious affinity for oil profits?  

Offline synchro1

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #553 on: January 12, 2014, 04:31:13 PM »
I asked why no could get Tesla-Coil-Builders series bifilar nail and paperclip test to work on the "Self acceleration" thread. Conradelektro offered to try it. I talked him into trying it with the coreless spiral pancake. This is a ten minute test. I believe now that this test was probably already performed by Conradelektro in secret. He probably got the same results I did, and the results were concealed by him, because he's unwilling or afraid to unseat the trendy and prejudiced false view that annoys the rest of us. Why else would Conradelektro be hiding out?  

Offline synchro1

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Re: Tesla's "COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS".
« Reply #554 on: January 12, 2014, 06:26:43 PM »


Here's the "Old Scientist" tuning a bifilar coil LC tank with a variable air capacitor:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2CcxJogghxY

He concludes that a bifilar coil has strong harmonics but is not influenced in the same way a standard or parallel LC tank circuit would be, due to the "resonance between the capacitor and the self capacitance of the coil".


In other words, the virtual LCC tank resonance of the bifilar tank is not as easily influenced by interference like a standard LC tank, and more stable!