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Author Topic: Perm. magnet only core with iron shell, motor coil  (Read 28076 times)

Offline Floor

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Re: Perm. magnet only core with iron shell, motor coil
« Reply #15 on: August 20, 2013, 04:23:02 PM »
@Kator01

Thanks for the post/suggestion, I will check out the video.


floor

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline Floor

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Re: Perm. magnet only core with iron shell, motor coil
« Reply #16 on: August 20, 2013, 04:48:35 PM »
@Tim123

I think you are correct, in regard to the iron shell shorting the magnetic current.  A different shell design is needed.

The reluctance/reactance will be high with a perm mag core. 

But I think that the perm mag field can be made to contribute to or detract from to the mag field of the coil.

There fore also to the shell field.

I believe that Iron cores do not increase the strength of a mag coil, but rather significantly concentrate it. (I may be wrong about this)

Thank you very much for your observations and post

              floor

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Perm. magnet only core with iron shell, motor coil
« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2013, 04:54:05 PM »
...

However, I think it's likely it'd give you much less magnetic force than a standard coil - because the PM core will not contribute as much field as a steel core would. Also, if the steel casing isn't magnetised by the PM when the coil is off - then surely that means it's won't be contributing anything when the coil is on either. So the overall effect would be as if the coil had no core at all. Also - as the metal casing goes all the way round - it shorts out the magnetic circuit - so there would be very little field outside the casing.

Hi Tim,


Basically I agree with what you say on a permanent magnet as the 'core' for a coil because every permanent magnet has a permeability of very close to that of the air i.e. 1 just due to its normal saturation.
However, what you say on the steel casing that it would not contribute anything even when the coil is ON is not neccessarily correct because the flux from the upper layers of the coil just under the steel cylinder would surely turn towards the steel, making it also a magnetized core just like the core would be length-wise in the center line of the coil. In fact, you can make an existing normal electromagnet stronger by wrapping a steel pipe / cylinder around it, by doing this you simply add more ferromagnetic core (cross section) to it. Checking this with an L meter, you would certainly see an increased inductance versus the no steel cylinder addition case.
And the metal casing would not short out the magnetic circuit because it becomes a magnet itself when current flows in the coil, the magnetic poles at its ends would develop in the same way as if it were placed in the middle center line of the coil, no?

I assume Floor wants to enhance the strength of a normal electromagnet by adding a permanent magnet to it and I believe it can be done. Would like to show a link, I wonder if you both have seen this drawing on an electromagnet which has both core and permanent magnet inside:
http://www.overunity.com/4624/how-to-make-bedini-motor-overunity/msg96814/#msg96814   

This setup really "shorts out" the flux of  the permanent magnet and when you enter current to the coil and the coil ends would have the same poles as the permanent magnet has, then the flux of both the coil and the permanent magnet would appear outside the core.
By discussing this setup with one of my friends he told me that I could make an as strong normal electromagnet as the added flux comes out from this setup, by choosing a better ferromagnetic core and using more AmperTurns...  And I told him, yes but when you have a restricted space for the electromagnet, then adding a permanent magnet like that could still increase the resultant strength.

However, if you wish to utilize the fact that you get say twice as much flux from an electromagnet in this setup by using the same input power than without the embedded permanent magnet, then you have to find out how the rest of your setup in which you use this "super" electromagnet could utilize the extra flux strength without the usual Lenz or action-reaction effect, right? (unfortunately...)

Gyula

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Perm. magnet only core with iron shell, motor coil
« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2013, 04:54:05 PM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: Perm. magnet only core with iron shell, motor coil
« Reply #18 on: August 20, 2013, 05:37:59 PM »
....
 Neo mags would hold up better, probably ?

Yes, Neo magnets are much harder to demagnetize by normal AmperTurns used for pulse motors,  heat can demagnetize them much more easily.

Offline Floor

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Re: Perm. magnet only core with iron shell, motor coil
« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2013, 05:40:35 PM »
@synchro1
/Tim123

I'm not sure I'm understanding your design/description (synchro).. But I believe we are thinking along the similar lines.

If the impedance of a mag core coil is large enough, it will negate the mag force increase caused by combining the mag core and coil fields.

Unless the (duration in time) of the physical movement of the interacting components is long enough, and their motion (has force enough) such that it is work greater than the wattage input.

The duration of  reactance can be very breif, since it only exits / is produced while current is rising or falling.  Once a DC current in a mag core coil peaks, impedance ends, then there is only the electrical resistance of the circuit.  Mean while work may continue to be performed
by the mag fields/motion of the physical components ? 

However any motion of these mag / coil physical components in close proximity and relative to one another, will produce secondary emf / electrical currents within the coils. complications !

I think we are all familiar with the situation.  The question is are these designs / geometry s any solution ? 


       Thanks y'all


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Perm. magnet only core with iron shell, motor coil
« Reply #19 on: August 20, 2013, 05:40:35 PM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: Perm. magnet only core with iron shell, motor coil
« Reply #20 on: August 20, 2013, 05:45:18 PM »
....
I believe that Iron cores do not increase the strength of a mag coil, but rather significantly concentrate it. (I may be wrong about this)
....


Hi Floor,

I agree, ferromagnetic cores collect flux from their vicinity and they are not flux amplifiers. Due to their relatively high value permeability they are able to conduct and guide magnetic flux much more readily than materials with much less permeability.

Gyula

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Perm. magnet only core with iron shell, motor coil
« Reply #21 on: August 20, 2013, 06:01:59 PM »


I think you are correct, in regard to the iron shell shorting the magnetic current.  A different shell design is needed.



Well, you may have already read my answer to Tim on the iron shell.

As an addition to the 'super' electromagnet (albeit I do not like to use word "super") a big advantage is that the permanent magnet is fully "hidden" to the outside "world" when the coil is OFF so the setup can also be considered as a permanent magnet ON/OFF switch...

Gyula

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Perm. magnet only core with iron shell, motor coil
« Reply #21 on: August 20, 2013, 06:01:59 PM »
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Offline Floor

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Re: Perm. magnet only core with iron shell, motor coil
« Reply #22 on: August 20, 2013, 06:04:30 PM »
@Gyulasun

Thanks for the input !

I had left this topic, temporarily, in order to build some mag field interaction test devices for perm mags. The next generation of devices will be
more accurate and versatile, and able to test electro mag designs as well.  I'm busy with some tests, at this time. But I will be offering / willing to test suggested designs, perhaps within two weeks or up to  few weeks from now.


               cheers
                         floor

Offline tim123

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Re: Perm. magnet only core with iron shell, motor coil
« Reply #23 on: August 20, 2013, 06:29:10 PM »
Hi Gyula / Floor...
  I agree that the steel casing itself would contribute some flux. The point I was making was that if the PM core's field cannot penetrate the casing when the coil is switched off - then that won't change when the coil is on - so the field from the PM is never seen outside the casing, coil on or off.

Floor, my understanding is that an iron core absolutely does contribute it's own magnetic field to the arrangement. It's not just concentrating the field produced by the coil - it's generating its own. This is why you have 'B / H Curves' for ferromagnetic materials. As the 'H' field from the coil increases, the 'B' field from the iron increases non-linearly to the saturation point.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturation_(magnetic)

The problem I see with this approach is that overunity has nothing to do with magnet strength at all. Stronger magnets = stronger Lenz forces in opposition. So stronger magnets alone are of no benefit. The key to OU has to be the change the geometry of the generator - so the Lenz forces are not applied back to the rotor...

It occured to me today - when I was writing the prev post - that perhaps the generator coils could aim their lenz-forces at each other instead of the rotor... I've often wondered if it'd be somehow possible to use the Lenz force to your advantage - i.e. to turn the rotor, and I do think it is possible. Standard generators & motors are pretty basic - and just throw the coils & magnets directly at each other... A bit more subtlety is the key I think.



Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Perm. magnet only core with iron shell, motor coil
« Reply #23 on: August 20, 2013, 06:29:10 PM »
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Offline tim123

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Re: Perm. magnet only core with iron shell, motor coil
« Reply #24 on: August 20, 2013, 08:19:21 PM »
Hey folks,
  I've posted a new thread to discuss my re-arranged generator - so I don't go off-topic here.
http://www.overunity.com/13730/rose-tinted-lenz-generator/

:)

Offline synchro1

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Re: Perm. magnet only core with iron shell, motor coil
« Reply #25 on: August 20, 2013, 08:26:47 PM »
Naturally, increasing magnet strength would increase Lenz drag, but the net result would equal more output per unit of input.


Look at Art Porter's GAP. His electromagnetic coil equals the magnetic strength of the permanent magnet backing it up, so that it's power can match and mask the PM field with an opposite charge;


Then the repulsion doubles over what it would be with the electromagnet alone when the current's reversed. Horse sense can probably tell us as much as Art's sketchy COP measurements.    

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Perm. magnet only core with iron shell, motor coil
« Reply #25 on: August 20, 2013, 08:26:47 PM »
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Offline tim123

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Re: Perm. magnet only core with iron shell, motor coil
« Reply #26 on: August 20, 2013, 09:15:38 PM »
Hi Synchro.
  I think the Lenz drag is exactly equal to the change in flux. So a stronger magnet provides exactly the same amount of output - just in a smaller package.

So a stronger magnet would not equal more output per unit of input (ignoring friction etc), it would be exactly equal. The counter-force in any generator is provided by the load.

The GAP power device isn't OU. I spent some time playing around with that setup - it taught me lots - but it's not OU.

It takes exactly the amount of energy to cancel the field of a PM as you can get back from it - if you're just placing a coil in front of the PM. I've tried it. In fact - there are losses.

I think it's true to say: If your magnets face the coils directly - it's never going to be OU - because of Lenz's law.


Offline Floor

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Re: Perm. magnet only core with iron shell, motor coil
« Reply #27 on: August 29, 2013, 05:32:46 AM »
@Kator01

Thanks for posting the gap motor link.  Interesting design.

I was not familiar, with the "gap motor".  And yes there is a similarity between the gap design, and the
mag core/iron shell design.  However, the gap design requires electrical input equal to the perm magnet strength, to neutralize the perm magnet. No net gain.

The goal of the mag core/iron shell design, is to create a mag field in the iron shell, only when the coil is on.  And to contribute to that field with the mag field from the perm magnet core.

Thanks very much again for your post.

                           cheers
                                  floor

Offline tim123

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Re: Perm. magnet only core with iron shell, motor coil
« Reply #28 on: September 02, 2013, 10:12:52 AM »
Hi Floor,
  this arrangement might work. Diagram below:

 - The steel core surrounds the magnet & provides a complete magnetic circuit - so the flux doesn't leave the core.
 - The coil surrounds the steel core.
 - When the coil is powered up, the same polarity as the magnet, it saturates the steel core so that return path isn't available.
 - So the effect should be to have the flux of coil + core + PM on the outside of the core.

I'm not sure if this would give you more magnetic force for a given electrical input though... It may be that it takes extra current to saturate the steel, with the PM inside it...

Regards
Tim

Offline Floor

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Re: Perm. magnet only core with iron shell, motor coil
« Reply #29 on: September 02, 2013, 03:22:37 PM »
@tim123

Thanks for the suggestion. 

Your drawing is a variation of the gap motor design, but a stimulating idea.

If the permanent magnet within the iron shell, were kept isolated from the iron shell, (not in physical
contact with, and only partially in a "magnetic contact" with the iron shell)  then the principle would be similar to the
electro permanent magnet (EPM) concept. 

             Thanks again

                  cheers
                       floor

                          PS

                               I'm still busy with measurements on the 1.5 : 1 all magnet design/testing




 

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