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Author Topic: How to install and tie together magnet wire coils  (Read 20850 times)

Offline aidrenegade

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Re: How to install and tie together magnet wire coils
« Reply #15 on: April 04, 2013, 07:58:19 PM »
More Thoughts....

Just a few minutes after posting the rpm started dropping (and so the dc output). I've already asked for a possible replacement idea for the dimmer switch.
Iwas also wondering if the 4uf / 400VAC capacitor that is attached to the motor may be causing problems. I know virtually nothing about motors and have no idea what this capacitors job is. There was no capacitor fitted to the first fan motor I started experimenting with.
Can I just cut out this capacitor and tie it's 2 leads together?

Although the fan motor doesn't get too hot to touch I appreciate that the fan blades it was driving also helped keep it cool. Could this be a problem in the motor when used in my build?

I'm currenty feeding the 3 speed fan motor through the live wire that that gave it it's highest speed setting. Would it be worth trying to feed it through the midde or lowest speed live wire? Afterall, I'm only looking for about 340 - 350 rpm. Could this be why I'm having so much trouble controlling the motors speed?

30 minutes later....

Tested this last thought! With the lowest speed wire the rpm kept increasing when the dimmer switch was turned down to it's lowest.
Middle speed wire had same problem....
Tried using a 250w rated dimmer switch and this made the problem worse. Hmmm... Maybe a higher wattage dimmer switch may solve the problem, time to get searching online....

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Offline gyulasun

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Re: How to install and tie together magnet wire coils
« Reply #16 on: April 05, 2013, 12:20:49 AM »
Hi,

Probably you did it correctly but I editied your picture to show the diodes connection. So you make a single diode with the indicated common anodes ( cathodes are connected inside the case), and one such connected MBR3045 will be used as a single diode, and should be connected as the voltage doubler schematic indicates them, ok? It means that for any one coil you need to use two such MBR3045 diodes, each prepared with the piece of wire as shown, ok?

Re on your dimmer control, normally such dimmers do not really designed for motor control but for incandescent lamps i.e. inductive loads like your motor may ruin it or influence its operation.  If you can obtain a dimmer for higher power than the present one you may try it but I cannot tell whether it would be good on the long run.  A much better slution but more expensive is to get a Variac, a variable rotary autotransformer (NOTICE it does not give a galvanic isolation from the mains!!!)
See here what I mean: http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_trksid=p5197.m570.l1311.R2.TR3.TRC0&_nkw=variac+variable+transformer&_sacat=0&_from=R40

Here is a 700W+  (240V/3A) type: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Variable-Transformer-3A-240V-Open-Type-Variac-3-Amp-/290807447062?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Components_Supplies_ET&hash=item43b5797e16  and will serve you for long, for other purposes too.  With such variac, any AC voltage coming from the 240V AC mains  can be set and the AC current maximum is specified for each variac you have to pick for your motor needs.

IF you do not load with anything your 12V DC output (with car lamps or whatever) then the charge is stored in the capacitors for a long time so a small change in rpm on the fan motor will not be noticed,  But across a load which takes the charge from the caps you will see small rpm changes too. 

The 12V DC input range for an inverter is normally specified in its user manual or data sheet, if you do not have such, try to look for it on the web, you may have luck to find it. In most of the cases the input range is governed by the normal lower discharged state of the 12V batterys, maybe this is at 11.7 or so and the upper limit may be 14V or so.

Re on your 4uF capacitor on the fan motor,  you should not deal with it, it belongs to the fan motor, once you found on it, it needs it, it is probably the so called 'run' capacitor for the AC motor, google the web what a run or runner capacitor is for a single phase motor.

Your fan motor can get warm or hot when you load your generator with useful load and it makes the fan motor as the prime mover 'sweat'...  and yes the original blades may have helped it cool. So you have to watch for the temperature of your fan motor during the tests.

I still think that from Lenz drag point of view you would be better off when you have an odd - even pair of coils and magnets...  now that you rebuilt the setup to have equal number of coils to that of the magnets this die is cast... ?

rgds, Gyula

Offline aidrenegade

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Re: How to install and tie together magnet wire coils
« Reply #17 on: April 07, 2013, 02:20:10 PM »

IF you do not load with anything your 12V DC output (with car lamps or whatever) then the charge is stored in the capacitors for a long time so a small change in rpm on the fan motor will not be noticed,  But across a load which takes the charge from the caps you will see small rpm changes too. 

I still think that from Lenz drag point of view you would be better off when you have an odd - even pair of coils and magnets...  now that you rebuilt the setup to have equal number of coils to that of the magnets this die is cast... ?

rgds, Gyula

All my rectifiers are now built and connected to coils then connected in parallel. Not got a variac yet but still experimenting. No load gives 12v dc @ 342 rpm. Putting on load is a different matter. Just a 12v dc 21w bulb puts on enough drag to slow rpm to about 228 & a output voltage of 4.2v dc. Even with the dimmer turned on to full 240v supply my 120w motor can't turn any faster.

RE: Lenz drag which I've definately got, I can't fit any more magnets to the inner ring due to the brackets I'm now using but I will make some more brackets and see if I can squeeze more magnets in around the outside ring.

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Re: How to install and tie together magnet wire coils
« Reply #17 on: April 07, 2013, 02:20:10 PM »
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Offline aidrenegade

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Re: How to install and tie together magnet wire coils
« Reply #18 on: April 12, 2013, 09:01:01 PM »
4 Extra magnets around the outer ring made only a slight improvement but I could'nt balance out the magnet assy to get it to run smoother. Next I reverted back to the 10 pairs of magnets only but also back to a N/S, S/N, N/S etc etc arrangement. On the plus side I now only need about 240rpm to generate 12v dc. On the minus side the Lenz drag might be even worse.

If I can get hold of an old 12v car battery I'll see If I can use my device to charge it, a bit like a wind turbine would I'm hoping. Any ideas on what the result will be? Will drawing load from the battery still cause Lenz drag on my device? Any other thoughts anyone?

Offline gyulasun

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Re: How to install and tie together magnet wire coils
« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2013, 11:41:36 PM »
Hi aidrenegade,

In your setup the Lenz effect is inherently 'included', unfortunately. What I wrote so far as suggestions were aimed at reducing any possible loss which also inherent in the usual circuits.
Your attempt to charge a car battery will also involve Lenz drag, albeit the charge current taken from your coils may be less then a direct bulb load across the output so you may experience less drag, depending on the charging current value taken.

If you wish to see motor or generator setups that allegedly has a low Lenz drag, I can direct you to some videos on that but due to lack of information from the author so far, no real measurements have been revealed. For a no Lenz no back emf motor setup watch this video: http://www.general-files.com/go/147592130300 and also another one here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TICXxP1jI4

On generators, you can find so called low Lenz setups on this youtube channel (no real performance measurements have been shown though):
http://www.youtube.com/user/TechnikerX/videos  start with the lower left video, it was the first).

Another video series on this low Lenz generator setup is here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9aXPeOHV0B8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_tupA4Y-wqw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mUilkDpvsiI
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wja4TIeW_d8

If you ask me on these setups I think that the first two videos may indeed show pulse motors with very good efficiency while the videos on the generators may or may not show low Lenz drag, only correct tests can give answers .

Finally, here is a patent application on a pulse motor from Paul Babcock where you can also see permanent magnets as rotors embracing cylindrical stator coils in a ring: http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20110156522 


rgds,  Gyula

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Re: How to install and tie together magnet wire coils
« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2013, 11:41:36 PM »
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Offline aidrenegade

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Re: How to install and tie together magnet wire coils
« Reply #20 on: July 29, 2013, 12:52:53 PM »
 :o :( After a bit of a break away from this project today has proved a disaster! So where did I go wrong with this coil idea? It was kind of inspired by the low lens drag video:

http://www.youtube.com/embed/bfgzfl69Q20

My coil wont produce any voltage! I thought that winding it together as per this photobucket slideshow would reduce lenz drag:
http://s1272.photobucket.com/user/wayfoward/slideshow/coil

Note how the mild steel bar I used as a core does not rotate. Instead I wound the 10 rolls of enamel wire around it in a clock wise direction, overlapping previous layers continually moving in a clockwise direction as indicated in the first 11 photos by the lettered coil rolls. I've tried both DC and AC configurations of my 35kg pull magnets. They are a bit further apart so I was expecting to need higher revolutions compared to my old setup. Not a single volt at 500rpm was a complete suprise! I've checked all tails to make sure there are no continuity breaks in the enamel wire.

Offline gyulasun

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Re: How to install and tie together magnet wire coils
« Reply #21 on: July 29, 2013, 03:51:33 PM »

Hi,

I am afraid you have managed to assemble a setup by "overcombining" some pieces of information. I mean the links I referred to do not clearly indicate a continuous ring core, where-ever such seemingly continuous rings are shown with several coils on their outside, we do not really know for certain whether the magnetic core is a continuous ring (cut at say one place only, like you show) or it is made from short pieces of cores with air gaps inbetween?
Another issue may be the mild steel bar you use as a core: how it performs really as a core when either you DC pulse it or feed with AC current?  I think of eddy current losses. 

Anyway I cannot imagine that the core shape as you would like to use it as a common core for each coil could perform correctly, I can only think of individual (as short as the coils) cores for each coil, with air gaps between the facing ends... that way the magnetic poles in each short core could develop and change in strength when a magnet passes by so there must be a better chance for induction. With a continuous long ring like core this is unlikely to develop, this is what I think.

I may sound to suggest chopping up your mild steel core for coil-long pieces...  so if you do not mind doing that, just do it. Before that, have you measured the inductance of the coils individually with an L meter? If there is a short then the inductance is small hence no much chance for receiving induced output voltage. Of course I speculate you might have a short.

rgds, Gyula

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Re: How to install and tie together magnet wire coils
« Reply #21 on: July 29, 2013, 03:51:33 PM »
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Offline aidrenegade

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Re: How to install and tie together magnet wire coils
« Reply #22 on: August 01, 2013, 08:40:42 AM »
Quote: "Before that, have you measured the inductance of the coils individually with an L meter? If there is a short then the inductance is small hence no much chance for receiving induced output voltage. Of course I speculate you might have a short."

I have a capacitance meter although I've never used it. Looking online I see dual capacitance / inductance meters for sale. What is the differance? Can I work out the inductance with a reading from my capacitance meter (needs a battery first) or should I buy an inductance meter for the job.

Offline gyulasun

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Re: How to install and tie together magnet wire coils
« Reply #23 on: August 01, 2013, 02:31:32 PM »
Hi,

Watching again your mild steel core, how did you fasten its ends to form the ring? Did it become a continuous metal ring with no air gap? In your 1st picture there is the bare long rod bended and in your 2nd picture I can see a thicker ring already in a full circle, covered with black tape?

And how did you try to induce voltage with the magnets: how you moved or rotated the magnets with respect to the ring core? Could you show a picture on the magnets arrangement? It would help me to ponder on further... :)

Well, if you wish to make several coils in your tinkering hobby on the long run, then an L meter or LC meter would be worth investing. See these choices:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/UK-LCR-RCL-INDUCTANCE-Capacitance-Resistance-Meter-/140968592347?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Test_Measurement_Equipment_ET&hash=item20d26203db

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/L-C-Inductance-Capacitance-Multimeter-Meter-LC200A-Tool-DC-USB-Cable-/160862532321?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Test_Measurement_Equipment_ET&hash=item25742772e1

The first type is probably the same as the XC-4070L for which there is a user manual online: http://pikirsa.wordpress.com/2013/07/01/lcr-newcason-xc4070l-user-manual/  and it turns out the measuring frequency for the coils is 100 Hz which is low enough.

The second type (LC-200A) has two measuring frequencies: around 500 kHz and at around 500 Hz which is very good (i.e. it uses two frequencies and the actual frequency can be seen on the display with function button pressed) but for using a coil at or lower than 40-50 Hz, especially with a core working at 50 Hz or so (and being lossy at higher frequencies),  it is not a good idea to measure it at even 500 Hz, it will have a more or less modified value at the lower frequencies. Nevertheless, the wider measuring ranges and precision of the LC-200A are more attractive than that of the CA-4050L (with XN- or BN- prefix also probably the same 4070L type), albeit this latter measures inductances at 100 Hz.
(here is an attractive looking meter http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/UT602-UNI-T-Modern-Inductance-Capacitance-Meter-Uni-Trend-/290787278384  and its measuring frequency is 1 kHz up to the 2 Henry (from 2 mH) range and 100 Hz only in the 20 Henry range)

Regarding your present C meter, my question is whether its measuring frequency is specified in the user manual or could be figured out from the web by searching for it by type? IF there is no any data on this, do you have a frequency meter, able to measure around 100 Hz to a few kHz? like a digital multimeter often has such feature or you have access to an oscilloscope?   

The reason I ask is that probably by connecting a known good quality capacitor in series with an unknown coil you could see the modified capacitor value on the C meter and doing some calculations you could arrive at the coil inductance but for this you would need the exact measuring frequency of the meter with that series LC reactance combination.

Gyula

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Re: How to install and tie together magnet wire coils
« Reply #23 on: August 01, 2013, 02:31:32 PM »
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Offline aidrenegade

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Re: How to install and tie together magnet wire coils
« Reply #24 on: August 04, 2013, 12:25:58 PM »
Here's an online pdf user manual for my capacitance meter: http://www.peakelec.co.uk/resources/esr70_userguide_en.pdf

The last coil has now been broken down and wound back onto the individual reels (about 35m of 1mm wire each). I will use each reel as a coil. I was hoping that by measuring the inductance of each reel and unwinding reels as required to give each one the same inductance they would then produce about the same voltage at a given rpm, not more than 600rpm. I just need the cheapest meter good enough to do this. When I rebuild my magnet assy with 10 reels and 10 pairs of magnets I will us a dc NS, NS, NS etc arrangement and aim for a direct dc output without need of the joule thieves.

Looking again at the low lenz drag video:http://youtu.be/bfgzfl69Q20 I notice that the air gaps are about the same length as each coil (or reel). I will try 10 coils first with small air gaps between coils and if it doesn't work I'll reduce the number of magnets / coils and try to reproduce a simular assy to his. I've yet to get hold of an iron bar of about 15mm dia to make cores for the reels.

Offline gyulasun

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Re: How to install and tie together magnet wire coils
« Reply #25 on: August 04, 2013, 03:15:51 PM »
Hi,

From the user manual it is clear (page 5) your cap meter uses 100 kHz measuring frequency which is very good for capacitors and for learning about their ESR (equivalent series resistance) values but this frequency is rather high for an iron bar core so I suggest buying the L meter shown in my first link above (it is within the UK).
By the way, I would not recommend using iron bar for your cores, their eddy current heat losses will be high even at low RPMs. Try to use ferrite cores, even ferrite beads used for high frequency interference supression would be good. I mean these with OD=14mm and length is 28.5 mm: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/10-Pcs-14x7x28-5mm-Toroid-Ferrite-Cores-Dark-Gray-for-Power-Transformers-/190877021677?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Components_Supplies_ET&hash=item2c712835ed  and you could simple insert them into your reels. Or if you can find similar toroidal cores cheaply with OD=14 to 15 mm you can also have them to fill up the reels with them.

You refer to the low lenz drag video again and I repeat again it is not proved by measurements that the "low lenz drag" is indeed true in practice i.e. it means a better performance indeed with respect to conventional setups.  Notice the air gap between the core and the inner circle of the magnets, it is at least 2 - 3 cm gap and this may mean a low lenz effect just because the magnetic induction is low.  I do not mean the gap between two neighbouring (adjacent) cores.  The closer the magnet to a core, the higher the induction but the higher the Lenz effect and vice versa.  This is good to keep in mind.  Until no practical measurements with real loads are done we cannot say it is a low Lenz setup indeed.

Gyula


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Re: How to install and tie together magnet wire coils
« Reply #25 on: August 04, 2013, 03:15:51 PM »
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Offline aidrenegade

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Re: How to install and tie together magnet wire coils
« Reply #26 on: August 24, 2013, 04:25:05 PM »
Hmm, I seem to be getting worse at this not better. Not got my ferrite cores yet but tried a setup with the 10 coils in a vertical orientation and couldn't get a volt out of them. I had unwound some of them to get their inductance values within .21mh on my meters 20mh setting. Also my magnets are now set up to produce dc voltage which meant playing with my levitation magnets to.

Not a single volt at almost 700rpm out of any coils, at which point I suffered a mechanical failure. Repaired my magnet assy and tried to generate a voltage using just a couple of coils in a horizontal plane like in the low lenz drag video but still no volts, dc or ac. All coils pass continuity test.

Heres a quick little slideshow link: http://s1272.photobucket.com/user/wayfoward/slideshow/coil%202. Am I missing anything obvious?

Offline aidrenegade

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Re: How to install and tie together magnet wire coils
« Reply #27 on: August 24, 2013, 08:37:02 PM »
OK, first problem is that I should be using repelling poles, eg n-n. I found this page online:
http://www.overunitybuilder.com/lenzlessquale.html. Also backed up by this other yt vid about the yt example linked to earlier by Gualsan, read the comments, some english explanation given. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rX5ukoC-WXU

I'm rethinking my setup. I will figure out how to build a 6 coil, 6 sets of magnets setup. I'm thinking of utilizing a 120 degree angled triangle idea to aim 3 of my 35kg pull repelling magnets at the coil center. Think I was letting my thinking become 'blinkered' and less open.

Also found this related link: http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Daniel_Quale_Lenzless_Generator


 

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