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Author Topic: How to install and tie together magnet wire coils  (Read 20897 times)

Offline aidrenegade

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How to install and tie together magnet wire coils
« on: February 25, 2013, 11:10:32 AM »
First, apologies to forum admin if I've posted my first post in the wrong section, please move it and let me know. I've just performed a 'search' for this coil question but didn't see anything relevant. I should point out I'm a DIY home enthusiast with some general service engineer background but none in this specific field.

I'm in the process of making a possible overunity device based on a mini magnetically levitated vertical axis system to remove as much friction as possible out of the equation. I've made 10 coils 15mm wide with 370 turns of .71mm magnet /coil wire. They are to be installed vertically so they pass between 12 pairs of 30mm X 30mm X 10mm 34kg pull magnets with 27mm between the faces of each pair. The magnets all alternate in polarity between each pair as I'm from the UK and aiming for a 240v AC output.

At present I'm not sure how to tie the coils together in series. I'm thinking the first thing to do will be to tie coils at 180 degrees to each other then tie the 5 pairs of coils together to create my output. To make each pair how do tie them? EG - inner coil wire to outer coil wire, inner to inner or outer to outer. Due to the relativly small thickness of the wire I was thinking that tieing them in pairs first would be more efficient for power output.

Next I was thinking I should tie the pairs together in series to create my output. I'm worried that due to my very limited experience with coils I'm 'missing something' and I can in fact only join each coil in series singularly and making pairs first won't matter. Any available youtube videos would be helpful!

Thankyou in advance for helping out this 'newbie'. I joined this forum because I need a little help. I will of course share my results with the forum one I finish my build.

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Offline aidrenegade

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Re: How to install and tie together magnet wire coils
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2013, 09:56:36 AM »
First, thanks to those who looked at my post. Attached are some pictures so you can see what I'm trying to build. I already know joining the coils in series, inner wire to outer wire, does not work as the voltage is half of what a single coil can produce for the same rpm. I've put connectors on all the coil tails so I can experiment easier. First I'm in the process of upgrading the the fan moter to a 120w version. I was suprised how much drag the flux put on the system, 550rpm max with 1 coil down to 270rpm with all 10 coils fitted using the old 35w fan motor in the pictures.

Also heres some pictures on flickrhttp://www.flickr.com/photos/92089676@N05/with/8544595306/#photo_8544595306

Dave45

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Re: How to install and tie together magnet wire coils
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2013, 04:08:08 PM »
check the wind turbines, how they are tied together

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Re: How to install and tie together magnet wire coils
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2013, 04:08:08 PM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: How to install and tie together magnet wire coils
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2013, 06:15:08 PM »
Hello aidrenegade,

You have got an interesting coil-magnet arrangement for sure. IF you do not have a dual channel scope to see the phase and amplitude relationships of the induced voltages between any two coils, then the best advice would be to rectify the output AC voltages of each of the coils and use a single puffer capacitor to collect them all into a common DC output. (RomeroUK used this method in his Muller motor/generator setup on this Forum).
Theoritically the amplitude and phase outputs ought to be identical in the coils which are just induced by the same pole magnet pairs (i.e. in every second coil if you have alternating magnet pairs) but due to the mechanical differences and differences in magnet strengths there are voltage and phase differences between the coils, this may make the outputs a bit lossy to sum.

Of course when normal diode bridges are used with 4 diodes in each, the power loss increases at the output because the forward voltage drop in a diode bridge doubles versus the half wave rectification (always two diodes conduct during any half wave) so perhaps using 2 diode full wave rectifiers instead of the 4 diode bridges can reduce diode losses to half. Here is a link to see a full wave rectifier with 2 diodes only and notice that it is also a voltage doubler so the DC output is twice the peak AC voltage coming from your coil: http://www.tubecad.com/january2000/img46.gif from this page: http://www.tubecad.com/january2000/page14.html  So each coil of yours would have two diodes as shown in the gif image for one (secondary transformer) coil and the 2 capacitors would be the common summing point for all the 10 diode pairs, ok? (yes the two series caps would have all the 10 series diode pairs in parallel as is shown for the single diode pair in the picture and the center point between the capacitors (+ and -) would receive the 10 coil endings say A1, B1, C1 etc. as a big common joining point and the center point of any one individual diode pair (Cathode-Anode) would receive A2, B2, C2 separately for each diode pair of course. The summed DC output for all the 10 coils this way would be as shown as the output at the upper capacitor positive and the lower capacitor negative points.
So each coil output is efectively paralleled as a doubled DC voltage across the two capacitors.

You may not like to get DC output from your generator but this 2 diode full wave rectification method to effectively parallel the voltages from all your output coils seems the simplest solution to see the total power output your setup is capable of and makes it easier to compare to your input power. (DC output power is much easier to measure than AC output power.)

You wrote that the 10 coils when fitted caused drag (a loss) in rpm from 550 rpm (when only a single coils was fitted) to 270 rpm, driven by the 35W old fan motor. I guess this was simply caused by the total mass of the 10 coils versus the single coil mass and not by any eddy current drag caused by the closeness of inner aluminum plates to the center circled magnets used for the levitation? (as is shown in your above picture)

Did you use super glue to fix the magnets onto the Alu plates? Maybe this fixing solution is safe for the some hundred high rpm but in case your 120W prime mover motor would have rpms in the thousand rpm range then the magnets may fly away just because the nickel coating may get teared down by the rotational forces. I have seen such coating simply pealing away from the rest of the magnet material beneath it when a glued hard disk magnet was attempted to be taken off its shielding plate. IF your would-be motor has rpm over 1000 it is advisable to tape the magnets around their backing Alu plates too, to be on the safe side.

I am curious to know the output voltage amplitudes you tried to connect in series, of course it is rpm dependent too.  If originally you wished to get 240V AC and planned for 10 coils then you may have expected 24V AC output from a single coil? I can see 12 magnet pairs for the 10 coils, if this is so, it makes any AC summing connections difficult because there will always be coils covered only partially by magnet pairs in any moment anywhere and this goes around cyclically.
One more question: within a magnet pair the facing poles are always unlike poles, say NS, and the next magnet pair coming just after the previous one has also unlike facing poles but with SN, right?

Greetings,  Gyula


Offline aidrenegade

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Re: How to install and tie together magnet wire coils
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2013, 07:53:42 AM »
Thanks for the replies. I've since found this online:
http://www.stanford.edu/~hydrobay/lookat/pmg.html#sect-6-b
I've set up my coils as shown in the diagram for a sinle phase motor, I went inner wire to inner wire, outer to outer etc in series. @gyulasun, it was in this info I first realised I might have problems using 12 pairs of magnets but only 10 coils but I'll try the setup I have first. It will take a few days but I'll post my next results. I'm just after the 240v ac first and the rpm required to generate it. Also good point about the magnets covering giving way at speed, I'm hoping about 750 - 850 rpm should do it though. With no scope I'll have no idea of the hertz though I have a knackered old laptop I can try in addition to light bulbs or power tools. Yes the poles are NS SN NS etc.

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Re: How to install and tie together magnet wire coils
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2013, 07:53:42 AM »
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Offline aidrenegade

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Re: How to install and tie together magnet wire coils
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2013, 09:45:26 AM »
Hmmm..... I'm thinking a conversion to DC output may be on the cards. My build quality means knocking sounds and too much vibration over about 500rpm. With the coils connected as above I still get the same result of about 3.3v at 270rpm. I tied 2 180 degree opposite coils inner to inner wire and got 39v ac at about 620rpm. Inner to outer wire was not worth the effort.

I will have to look more into converting to dc and possibly aiming for 12v and buy a cheap inverter. For ac I think 12 pairs of magnets but only 10 coils is probably causing problems.

Offline aidrenegade

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Re: How to install and tie together magnet wire coils
« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2013, 06:39:00 PM »
So OK, after much wailing, knashing of teeth, swearing and possibly breathing in to much supa glue fumes I think I've managed to convert my magnet arrangement to all magnets set NS, NS, NS, etc to produce a dc current. I noted previously that 12v ac needed about 370rpm to produce. I'm leaving the magnets alone till tomorrow morning to (hopefully) ensure all the supa glue has dried so I can remove the spacers (see photo)

So now I'm into new dc experimtation. I've also brought a 700w, 12v dc / 230vac inverter. 240v output would have been better but I brought the best I could afford. This should'nt be a problem as I'm using a 400w rated dimmer switch to control power to the drive motor. Bearing in mind I'm not using any kind of 12v battery, and allowing for a bit of 'load', any ideas on what voltage I should feed to the 700w inverter? Of course as yet I have no idea what amps my 10 coils of 370 turns 0.71 enameled wire will produce at a 12v dc output.

For anyone across the pond I think .71 wire equals about 22 gauge wire as per this conversion chart:
http://www.calculatoredge.com/charts/msteelsheets.htm

Can I measure the amps output at 12 v dc using my multimeter if there is no load on the coils? I'm sure this is 'schoolboy' stuff for many of you but I left school in '84 and most of this info is forgotten! Any help / ideas on how to test and see what I'm generating with a multi-meter would be helpfull!

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Re: How to install and tie together magnet wire coils
« Reply #6 on: March 13, 2013, 06:39:00 PM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: How to install and tie together magnet wire coils
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2013, 12:10:41 AM »
Hi aidrenegade,

You still have 12 magnet pairs and 10 coil so you probably will not have DC output voltage directly from the coils and you may have to use rectifiers to get suitable DC voltage to feed the inverter.  If this proves to be correct, then the links shown above to use a full wave rectifier with 2 diodes per coil only instead of a 4 diode bridge is still a good option (you can save half of the total diode loss). If this happens to be needed,  the link above to such a rectifier is okay albeit it is a voltage doubler, you can control output voltage by the rpm control to your prime mover motor with the dimmer for sure.  So I suggest paralleling all the coil outputs via the rectifiers into a common DC output.

Let's do some simple calculations. Your prime mover's motor power is rated as 120W, right? Let's remain in this power range, while it is okay that your inverter is rated to give out 700W.  This latter means that at its 230V AC output it would be able to drive a load which draws about 700W/230V=3 Amper, ok?
At the inverter's input side this power would "translate" as follows: the inverter has its own efficiency which is load dependent too but let's say it has 90% efficiency at the 700W power level so at the input side you have to feed in 700W x 1.1  i.e. 770W. This would mean that at the 12V DC input level the DC current load towards you generator output would be 770W/12V=64.1 Amper!  This is why I wrote above let's remain in the 100W power range instead of 700W, first of all due to your prime mover's power capability even if you consider your setup to be something extraordinary, right?
So in case you would load the 230V AC ouput of the inverter with a normal 100W 240V incandescent lamp, the input current demand at the 12V DC input would be about close to (100W*1.2)/12V=10 Amper (I considered only 80% efficiency in this case because inverters behave like that). This 10A current will demand about 1A current from each coil if you parallel all the coils via the diode rectifiers and store the total output energy in the capacitors.  This now could be fulfilled by your setup when you use the 120W rated prime mover and a 100W load at the inverter AC ouput.
I know that this is a conservative and conventional approach but first I suggest to keep near to this power level for the first tests to see what your setup is capable of.

Regarding your question on "the amps output" at 12V DC:  This is an impossible question, sorry to say so. Your coils behave exactly like generator coils would do so if you do not use a load, then no sense to measure the short circuit current,  for an ampmeter does represent a practical short circuit across your output coils, should you connect one across a coil, ok?
The optimal case for a correct load instead of a short would be an impedance matched load at your generator coils output, this considers the DC wire resistance of the coils and their AC impedance at the given rpm. Just look for how to get maximum output power from a generator. 
A good start here would be to use an Ohmmeter and measure the DC resistance of each coil (well they will be probably identical), this DC resistance will probably rule in the impedance because the inductance of your coils at the rpm range used may be less.
I suggest using the rectifier referred to above at a single coil output first (obtain at least 10A 40V Schottky diodes, from computer power supplies etc) and load the DC output with power resistors (but 12V car headlight bulbs may be used, remebering they are nonlinear), you may wish to use a DC voltmeter in parallel with the resistor or the lamp load and a separate DC ammeter in series with the resistor or lamp load. For the two electrolytic capacitors shown in the link, I suggest at least 10000uF or higher, with 25V or rather 35V DC ratings.  OF course you know now that to load a single coil output with 1 Amper current the power resistor should be about 12V/1A=12 Ohm IF you adjust an rpm to have 12V DC across the capacitors when this 12 Ohm is connected.  The heat dissipation in the resistor would then be 12Watt.  Use car lamps accordingly and as per you wish to load the total output.

rgds,  Gyula

Offline aidrenegade

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Re: How to install and tie together magnet wire coils
« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2013, 06:14:24 AM »
Hmmm..... Dam it! I didn't see that one coming! With all magnets set NS, NS, NS etc the north poles are all facing inward, magnetizing the steel axle and over powering the levitation magnets and pulling the whole assembly down onto the coils. I guess first I need to try turning all the levitation magnets through 180 degrees to make them south pole to south pole and see if it makes any difference. If not I guess I need to make a non ferrous axle out of something.

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Re: How to install and tie together magnet wire coils
« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2013, 06:14:24 AM »
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Offline aidrenegade

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Re: How to install and tie together magnet wire coils
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2013, 11:19:38 AM »
Good news / bad news. Good news is that flipping the levitation magnets worked but it still puts out an ac voltage so it's time to look at the other suggestions made above. Note to self! Next build factor in the same number of coils as pairs of magnets.

Offline aidrenegade

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Re: How to install and tie together magnet wire coils
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2013, 08:34:53 AM »
   
I suggest using the rectifier referred to above at a single coil output first (obtain at least 10A 40V Schottky diodes, from computer power supplies etc) and load the DC output with power resistors (but 12V car headlight bulbs may be used, remebering they are nonlinear), you may wish to use a DC voltmeter in parallel with the resistor or the lamp load and a separate DC ammeter in series with the resistor or lamp load. For the two electrolytic capacitors shown in the link, I suggest at least 10000uF or higher, with 25V or rather 35V DC ratings. 

I've got to order these bits online as the local Maplins shop doesn't carry them. Guya, can you confirm I've got suitable components before ordering them via these links:

Schottky Diode 45V, 16A (not sure about the 'to 220v' bit): http://www.conrad-uk.com/ce/en/product/163689/Vishay-MBR1645-SCHOTTKY-DIODE-TO-220AC-Schottky-Diode-45V-16A-TO-220-AC.

Elecrolitic capacitors: http://www.conrad-uk.com/ce/en/product/446191/15000F-Electrolytic-Capacitor-10mm-Vishay-2222-058-57153

Thanks.

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Re: How to install and tie together magnet wire coils
« Reply #10 on: March 15, 2013, 08:34:53 AM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: How to install and tie together magnet wire coils
« Reply #11 on: March 15, 2013, 11:54:55 AM »
Hi aidrenegade,

I would suggest using several smaller capacitors in parallel, this has two advantages: cheaper overall price and lower ESR as a result (ESR is equivalent series resistance of any capacitor, the lower this value the less loss is created inside a capacitor).

So at  your local Maplin you may get 10 (or more) quantity of a 4700uF 35V (105°C) for  Ł1.15 each, (quantity dependent), order code N97KF

So you may wish to parallel 5 such 4700uF and call it as C1 group and paralell the other 5 and call it as C2 group.  One such group would work as one of the caps in the rectifier circuit I referred to earlier and the other such group would work as the other cap there.

Regarding the diodes, it is a good choice you show (TO 200AC refers to the case style) but you may find similar at Maplin, see MBR3045PT  (45V 30A)  price  Ł0.99 if you buy 20 quantities it is Ł19.80 order code N18CC   (you need 20 because of the 10 coils)   Notice that these are dual diodes, actually two diodes are manufactured into a single case with common cathode and you can connect the two anodes together to get a single diode from the two, this decreases the overall diode loss some percent (7-8%) too.  (Data sheet for the diode: http://www.onsemi.com/pub_link/Collateral/MBR3045PT-D.PDF )

I think if you can stay with the 10 coil - 12 magnet pairs it would be better than using equal number of coil-magnet pairs. Further if you could keep the safety tapes wrapped around each magnet, your setup would be much safer at higher rpms.

Gyula

Offline aidrenegade

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Re: How to install and tie together magnet wire coils
« Reply #12 on: March 21, 2013, 05:45:59 PM »
Dam it! Build quality let me down! At about 700 rpm one of the magnets came loose, took out 2 coils and loosened another 2 magnets. And on the day my diodes & capacitors turned up in the post too. Wish I had maybe £500 or £600 to get an engineering firm to build a decent, ballanced engineered part of my build to take out the weak areas! So, 2 new coils to wind and 2 magnets to re-fix into position (guess I need more supa glue....)

Offline aidrenegade

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Re: How to install and tie together magnet wire coils
« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2013, 06:52:27 PM »
OK, I finally built a new assembly to hold the magnets (see pic below). I went for 10 pairs of magnets as I have 10 coils but I'm still producing ac voltage, 6v at 532rpm. The whole thing does now seem more balanced in operation and a bit less noisy. Time to install the diodes / capacitors and get the voltage doubled and converted to dc.

(QUOTE) "Notice that these are dual diodes, actually two diodes are manufactured into a single case with common cathode and you can connect the two anodes together to get a single diode from the two, this decreases the overall diode loss some percent (7-8%) too."

Does this simply mean solder the input side of the magnet wire to both outer legs as per the wiring diagram?

Offline aidrenegade

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Re: How to install and tie together magnet wire coils
« Reply #14 on: April 04, 2013, 05:42:27 PM »
So I've fitted 5   2 diode full wave rectifiers / voltage doublers to 5 of my coils. Needed to order a few more capacitors to finish the job but started to experiment with these 5 outputs connected in parallel. I'm finding it really difficult to find the 'sweet spot' with the 400w rated dimmer switch. Momentum of my motor / magnet arrangement combined with the slower discharge of the capacitors is making using the dimmer switch to 'fine' control the motor feed voltage to control the dc output difficult.

Any ideas for a voltage control system to replace the dimmer switch are welcome! As I type, I've been trying to find the perfect setting of the dimmer switch, it seems to be settling down but it's already taken 1 1/2 hours! Using a dimmer switch may infact be a built in fault if it can't output a finer level of voltage. Add to this the fact that the motor is controlled from a UK 240v ac mains (at present) when my inverter will have a 230v ac output I see a lot more swearing and knashing of teeth ahead!

Currently output voltage is varying between 12.25v and 12.68v (dc) but it may still be slowing down over all. At least I know the fan motor will keep going and no where near it's 240v max imput voltage. Not going to waste time trying to actually measure this voltage till the rest of the full wave rectifiers are fitted. In regard to your typical 12vdc / 230vac inverter, the book doesn't state a +/- tolerance for the 12v dc input, does anyone have any ideas on this tolerance?

As always, in advance, a big thankyou for your input! Don't be shy with your comments, one may point my mind in another direction of thought that you were not thinking of!

 

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