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Author Topic: Magnetic Motion Device  (Read 18758 times)

Offline casman1969

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Re: Magnetic Motion Device
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2013, 04:47:43 PM »
Hey DTB,
 
Got to thinking about how to insure there would be no wobble (if using 2 rotor head assembly or 1 for that matter) with a consistent, predictable track and thought that since you will be printing this stuff up anyway, why not put the rotor on a solid ring the same width and height as the rotor you have pictured. Granted, this would involve friction but for proof of concept a suitable luibricant could be used to reduce this problem and the track would then be true and precise. Maybe even a teflon coating to both rotor and stator ring and track? Splitting the stator assy down the center of the raceway would allow for easy insertion of the rotor ring and possibly even using a ridge on the Stator as opposed to having the entire track surface making contact with the rotor. I'm a big fan of ceramic bearings for next generation should this original concept work.
Right angle holes in the raceway could be used to pump air between the rotor ring and stator raceway so that the whole ring rides on a cushion of air thereby eliminating all friction in the proof of concept.
Sorry for rambling.
 

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Re: Magnetic Motion Device
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2013, 04:47:43 PM »

Offline casman1969

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Re: Magnetic Motion Device
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2013, 04:51:03 PM »
BTW,
 
Was I off on the physical dimensions of the stator mags?

Offline b_rads

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Re: Magnetic Motion Device
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2013, 05:39:19 PM »
Hi Brad,

When the rotor is first pushed in there is resistance the two poles between rotor and stator are in direct opposition. Once the rotor gets halfway through the first stator magnet it takes off. Another interesting effect is if I put the rotor magnet in the middle of the track and keep the rotor stationary it will push the stator backwards in the opposite direction. So it might be possible to hold the rotor fixed and have the stator rotate around. I attached a picture of where the gating occurs the rotor is shown right where it takes off. It seems like once it gets in that barbed pattern setup by the stator it is squeezed out.
Thank you for the reply and this information is very exciting.
I am thinking pendulum,  place your rotor on a swinging arm.  If the kick will let you get past top dead center, gravity should get you through the gate and continue the rotation.  I like the idea of removing friction from travel on the track.  The pieces you have already crafted should suffice to prove if this is possible or not.  Best of Luck.
Brad

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Re: Magnetic Motion Device
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2013, 05:39:19 PM »
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Offline DreamThinkBuild

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Re: Magnetic Motion Device
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2013, 06:28:57 PM »
Hi Newton,

I was wondering if a counter rotating system could be made, the rotors would have to be odd number to even stator to keep it unbalanced so it doesn't find equilibrium.

Hi Casman,

A solid rotor would good especially if it takes off. I can get about a 1mm spacing between the rotor and stator so they don't touch. I attached a picture of the idea of rotor ring. I don't want to get to far ahead yet my only goal right now is just get the rotor attached to a arm to shoot out of a curved(quarter of circle) stator smoothly. Then adding the next piece and seeing if it can make the next arc. Once I see that then it's open season on more elaborate design. :)

Quote
Was I off on the physical dimensions of the stator mags?

The only size I've seen mentioned in his document was the .875"L x .375"W x 1.75"H rectangle ceramic magnets. I'm working at a smaller scale about 1:3.5 but use the same size magnets for both stator and rotor. I did the spacings from looking at his drawings the top of the rotor magnet just passes the tip of the stator magnet on the top and slightly above the next stator magnet where the V of the rotor meets.

No problems rambling you bring up some good ideas.  ;)

Hi Brad,

The pendulum idea would have one issue with it going back as the gating is strong if your pushing the rotor backwards through the stator. There seems to be a certain degree angle (3-4 degrees) that you can change the rotor in the track before it wants to lock or flip.

@All,

I'm still working on getting a proper curve I have to make sure the rotor magnet doesn't get above or below the angle of the next magnet in the stator. One idea to maybe remedy this is go with a slightly wider outside magnet but that may change the whole field pattern. I really want to see this move, but I have to avoid rushing or changing design from original, if we can get an accurate small model then we will know what angles we need to scale it up.

Offline Dusty

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Re: Magnetic Motion Device
« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2013, 09:43:02 PM »
I've built one similar to your wheel.  What I noticed is if you have all the outside stator magnets in place it wouldn't run. Without one section on the stator it would run from the start point to end point.   In other words place your rotor in the stator gap and it will go all the way around till it comes to the stator gap.  Then when I placed the last stator in place to complete the outside ring of magnets, nothing would move at all.


I figured out what it was.  When you place the rotor magnet in the missing stator slot you will get an immediate pull and it will continue right on around till it hits the wall at the end.
Now what happens when that last stator is installed the rotor doesn't know where start should be.  It will just sit there and not move.  There must be some continuous magnetic flux band completely circular to the whole stator ring.  The rotor just didn't know what to do.


I think I have a solution.  I never tried it but you will need to design a unit with lets say three levels.  Each level will contain a third of the stator magnets.  Of course you will need three rotors. Have your timing where when one rotor is just leaving the stator field the next wheel rotor will just be starting its entry point, and so on with the third wheel.


I hope you see what I mean.


Dusty

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Re: Magnetic Motion Device
« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2013, 09:43:02 PM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: Magnetic Motion Device
« Reply #20 on: February 16, 2013, 12:13:36 AM »
I've built one similar to your wheel.  What I noticed is if you have all the outside stator magnets in place it wouldn't run. Without one section on the stator it would run from the start point to end point.   In other words place your rotor in the stator gap and it will go all the way around till it comes to the stator gap. Then when I placed the last stator in place to complete the outside ring of magnets, nothing would move at all.


I figured out what it was.  When you place the rotor magnet in the missing stator slot you will get an immediate pull and it will continue right on around till it hits the wall at the end.
Now what happens when that last stator is installed the rotor doesn't know where start should be.  It will just sit there and not move.  There must be some continuous magnetic flux band completely circular to the whole stator ring.  The rotor just didn't know what to do.


I think I have a solution.  I never tried it but you will need to design a unit with lets say three levels.  Each level will contain a third of the stator magnets.  Of course you will need three rotors. Have your timing where when one rotor is just leaving the stator field the next wheel rotor will just be starting its entry point, and so on with the third wheel.


I hope you see what I mean.


Dusty

Hi Dusty,

I would add to your text (what I changed to bold above) that there may be a simpler solution than using three rotors: you may wish to try to use only one more rotor. How I think I refer to an old patent (WO9414237),  namely to the right hand side of the setup in Figure 8 and 9,  see this link and the figures are way down in the long page here: http://www.rexresearch.com/werjefelt/werjefelt.htm
What is that setup?  it is a generator where a shaft is rotated by a prime mover (not shown) and the left hand side magnet creates a flux change in the U shape core and voltage is induced in the coil. OF course there would be a severe cogging due to the attraction but the inventor COMPENSATED this cogging on the other side of the same shaft by using a second rotor with magnets on it that are positioned correctly to their own stator magnets at the cogging position of the left hand side magnet AND are in repel to minimize the attract forces on the left.

So what I think is that if a rotor is able to cover a just less than 360 degree circle and comes to its usual sticky point and it is say a repel point (which forces the rotor to stop) then this repel point could be compensated by an attract force that is effective to the same shaft by using a second rotor with the attached attract magnets, positioned exactly at that single repel point of the first rotor.   If the sticky point were caused by an attract force then the compensation force (effective onto the same shaft) would come from also a second rotor with repel stator-rotor magnet pairs positioned correctly to meet at the sticky point of the other rotor.

This way the inertia of the rotor that is gained from the start to the stop (this latter is the sticky point) may be able to push the rotor through the "sticky point" which in fact is minimized by the other rotor-stator magnet combination. 

What do you think?  I believe what you suggest as using 3 rotors could also give a continuous rotation but with relatively less acceleration because the 360 degree would be divided to 3 parts, while in a setup that is able to accelerate during almost the full 360 degree the momentum can be higher hence a better chance to go through a compensated sticky point.

rgds,  Gyula

Offline e2matrix

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Re: Magnetic Motion Device
« Reply #21 on: February 16, 2013, 07:17:24 AM »
gyulasun,  Thanks for bringing up the Werjefelt info.  I don't think I had come across that before and it really got my wheels spinning ;)   He has some fascinating work.  Before I really got through it all I was picturing some ideas that involve magnets on wheels all on a shaft and separated by some space and all controlled by cams that would move them up and down as needed to avoid stiction and maximize attraction using both repel and attraction forces.   I think we need to learn to think more in 3D than we normally do with designs. 
DTB is on the right track in a number of ways and having that 3D printer could prove very useful both in producing parts and getting one to think more in 3D. 

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Re: Magnetic Motion Device
« Reply #21 on: February 16, 2013, 07:17:24 AM »
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Offline Gwandau

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Re: Magnetic Motion Device
« Reply #22 on: February 17, 2013, 01:44:44 AM »
Hi All,
I've had a paper from a Mr. Arthur Joseph Cote his invention, Magnetic Motion Device, is to use two magnets(rotor) that are separated 23 degrees apart. These are put in a track(stator) that has magnets closely spaced but angled at 45 degrees on either side. In his document the north is supposed to repel off the north facing magnets but that wasn't the case. It works in reverse. If you try to flip the magnet it sticks and locks badly.
I'll use the terminology of rotor as the 2 magnets 23 degrees apart. The stator as the 45 degree magnets on the sides.
Initially there is a gate where the N of the stator and N of the rotor is pushed in. Once the back of the rotor clears the first magnet it will shoot out the end with no gating or pull back. Measured with a ruler from exit it shoots between 7 and 10 inches out on smooth flat table. If I place a large glass marble at the end it will shoot the marble off.
I've included a shot of the field pattern which is very cool. The stator creates a barbed angled pattern and the rotor creates a triangular pattern(looks like a bullet).
The 10 N42 magnets are from CMS Magnetics on E-Bay they are 1/2" x 1/4" x 1/8" (12.7mm x 6.35mm x 3.175mm). 100 for $28.
I'm including the 3D files which is the actual print model(.STL) I used to make this for those that want to build, test or analyze it further. Measurement is in mm, the magnets are scaled for ABS with a .40mm nozzle diameter. May have to tap the magnets in with a small rubber mallet as I made it all friction hold, requires no glue or tape.
Also attached is the original doc and some distance tests with shooting the magnet out (sorry for glare, flash was on).
Any ideas or suggestions?, please post.

 
DreamThinkBuild,
 
whatever you plan to do, first of all you must elongate the runway and test if it still moves unhindered.  You interesting "catapult" effect does unfortunately not prove a continous function.
 
And above all, do not deviate into any new shapes and constructs. This is of absolute importance.
 

I cannot emphasize enough that the most direct way to ensure successful progress is to keep to your present settings and just elongate the runway. I would suggest it to be at least 1,5 meter.
 
Only if the moving part goes seamlessly all the way linearly the project is ready for next step which is to curve the existing path into a circular shape.

 
(I am afraid that 1,5 meters is nesseccary in order to minimize the effect the curvature will have on the path. 1,5 meters would mean about 300 magnets if keeping to your present scale, which would seem a somewhat costly experiment, but if you proceed gradually by elongating the runway in several steps, the cost of the 300 magnets will be well worth it, since if the "rotor" continously moves forward, you have invented a magnetic motor!)

It is actually fully possible to perform both steps, lineary as well as the circular, by using same prototype, just apply your magnet pattern onto a flexible 2 mm thick and a minimum of 1,5 meter long runway made of the elastic and unbreakable polycarbon material.
 

Then to make a circular path you just bend the runway and connect both ends, and you have a path with no end.
 

But at this stage of the experiment the rotor need to be physically disconnected from the stator by getting it fixed upon the end of a shaft connected to a central axis with ball bearings.
The friction present in its linear model will otherwise increase in the circular one.

 
The only way to stay on a successful track when it comes to novel experiments is to never deviate from earlier successful parameters in a project.
 
Cheers,
 
Gwandau
 

Offline pholdit

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Re: Magnetic Motion Device
« Reply #23 on: February 17, 2013, 08:17:18 AM »
the idea that the magnets can be placed as in the second drawing (a drum as opposed to a ring) makes more sense. if the middle rotor had many magnets which covered one half  or a quarter of the curvature you may be able to make some sort of lever to move them into the track to start or stop the machine. several of these operating like an aperature would work also. the shaft of the drum could then be geared to run a generation device or provide a mechanical power.
the center should therefore be the stator  assembly and the outer rings the rotor

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Re: Magnetic Motion Device
« Reply #23 on: February 17, 2013, 08:17:18 AM »
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Offline DreamThinkBuild

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Re: Magnetic Motion Device
« Reply #24 on: February 19, 2013, 06:27:12 PM »
Hi All,

I have some bad news. This weekend I've been out, so haven't had much time to work on anything. I finally got to sit down today 2/19/2013 and noticed something odd with the track, it was shooting a lot shorter distance than usual, 4-6", also the gate seemed easier to bypass. I thought maybe it was just cold weather doing something to the material so I put some talcum powder on it to reduce any friction. It's still shooting out but the distance is shortend noticeably.

I built this on 2/12/2013 today is 2/19/2013 so seven days and I'm seeing a degradation of the field strength. I didn't think the magnets would do this, the only other time I've seen loss of magnetic field is when taking a cylinder magnet, wrapping a coil around it and pulsing it with ultracaps to make a heater. :)

Now I did order some ceramic magnets last week, not sure if they will make a difference but to be thorough I will try them out with another track and see if that lasts more than seven days.

Hi Dusty,

Thank you for your input on your track. I noticed on Cote's design he used three rotors but there was no indication on how they were offset to the stator magnets. Did you notice any magnetic field loss in your design after a while?

Hi Gyulasun,

The Werjefelt device is really neat. I wonder if this could be aligned with a standard alternator. Attach your prime mover to a shaft with a magnet arrangement of two or more sliding outside magnets and then attached to your alternator. Place a load on the alternator and slowly move the magnets in until the current in the prime mover decreases. The outside magnets may have to be the same number of poles and aligned as the alternator though.

Hi E2Matrix,

The more researchers we can get working with these machines the better. This will really speed up testing of what works and what doesn't with accuracy. Having the ability to send someone a design with all the measurements will hopefully reduce a large problem of replication errors.

Hi Gwandau,

So far it looks like the magnet alignment is stressing/weakening the field. I'm going to wait for the ceramic magnets to come in and remake a small track with that and see if it degrades also. A 5ft long track estimated at the current size would take around ten hours of printing time. Not too bad.

Hi Pholdit,

A lever would work to start and stop but it looks most likely it will stop itself eventually. :(

 

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