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Author Topic: Magnetic Motion Device  (Read 18755 times)

Offline DreamThinkBuild

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Magnetic Motion Device
« on: February 13, 2013, 12:57:38 AM »
Hi All,

I've had a paper from a Mr. Arthur Joseph Cote his invention, Magnetic Motion Device, is to use two magnets(rotor) that are separated 23 degrees apart. These are put in a track(stator) that has magnets closely spaced but angled at 45 degrees on either side. In his document the north is supposed to repel off the north facing magnets but that wasn't the case. It works in reverse. If you try to flip the magnet it sticks and locks badly.

I'll use the terminology of rotor as the 2 magnets 23 degrees apart. The stator as the 45 degree magnets on the sides.

Initially there is a gate where the N of the stator and N of the rotor is pushed in. Once the back of the rotor clears the first magnet it will shoot out the end with no gating or pull back. Measured with a ruler from exit it shoots between 7 and 10 inches out on smooth flat table. If I place a large glass marble at the end it will shoot the marble off.

I've included a shot of the field pattern which is very cool. The stator creates a barbed angled pattern and the rotor creates a triangular pattern(looks like a bullet).

The 10 N42 magnets are from CMS Magnetics on E-Bay they are 1/2" x 1/4" x 1/8" (12.7mm x 6.35mm x 3.175mm). 100 for $28.

I'm including the 3D files which is the actual print model(.STL) I used to make this for those that want to build, test or analyze it further. Measurement is in mm, the magnets are scaled for ABS with a .40mm nozzle diameter. May have to tap the magnets in with a small rubber mallet as I made it all friction hold, requires no glue or tape.

Also attached is the original doc and some distance tests with shooting the magnet out (sorry for glare, flash was on).

Any ideas or suggestions?, please post.

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Magnetic Motion Device
« on: February 13, 2013, 12:57:38 AM »

Offline e2matrix

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Re: Magnetic Motion Device
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2013, 03:23:52 AM »
Nice find DTF - interesting document.  I noticed he used ceramic magnets which have less power up close but have more strength at a distance than Neo Magnets the way I understand it.  Considering the slingshot video's I've seen using magnets I've always felt if one could build it into a reasonably large circle that it would be self running.  I'm not sure what kind of power you could get and overall how affordable it would be as a power source but it would be very cool to see a self runner.  It seems lately I've been again bumping into a number of articles that claim magnets CAN be used as a way to generate power (self running).

Offline crazycut06

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Re: Magnetic Motion Device
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2013, 11:54:14 AM »
Nice Dreamthinkbuild, if theres no dead spot in that setup maybe posible to selfrun if built in a loop, is it like a howard johnson design?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Magnetic Motion Device
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2013, 11:54:14 AM »
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Offline DreamThinkBuild

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Re: Magnetic Motion Device
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2013, 05:29:19 PM »
Hi E2Matrix,

I keep hearing reports of working magnet motors but it's always elusive stories just like bigfoot. :) In my experiments I always find them static. The only way I can find out is just build and test even if it fails break it down and find out how and why. This track caught me off guard the logic is saying it's going to stick at the end, but didn't and goes in completely opposite of what it looks like it's supposed to do. That's why it's important to test even if it's just a small model to see if it has any merit to continue.

Hi CrazyCut,

I'm looking into making a round test version. A flat version would be the easiest to construct. The barbed pattern that the stator produces is very important, from observation and constantly playing with shooting at things on my desk it appears to squeeze the rotor out.

@All,
I'll do some more tests with some curved pieces and see if I can maintain that barbed pattern. May have to move one of the rotor magnets in to compensate for the difference in angles to the curve.

Offline casman1969

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Re: Magnetic Motion Device
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2013, 05:59:19 PM »
We all know the expirement at the start of this thread does work and curving it to loop is the goal but why change the structure? He shows four magnets on either side driving the two magnets down the track.  so why not just make the track longer and curve it up and back around? Granted, we're talking about a lot of magnets but the principle can be shown to work  by merely building a longer track and curving it up on one end to see if it will work. If so, turn the track on its side rather than an up or down loop and the gravity issue would be minimized.
Just a thought that if given the time I will attempt. Two rotors conected by one shaft would keep both in their position and give us a way to tap whatever mechanical power might be there. For that matter, four rotors might even be better. Ceramic bearings on the rotor will minimze drag. If the single rotor will make the turn, this should be doable.
Can't yet envision how large the track might have to be...

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Magnetic Motion Device
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2013, 05:59:19 PM »
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Offline DreamThinkBuild

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Re: Magnetic Motion Device
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2013, 07:06:11 PM »
Hi Casman,

Thank you for your input. I have measured out the original version for these scale magnets, it will take 46 magnets and be approximately 100mm(3.9") diameter which is not bad for small scale. The angle should work as it's matched to the stator magnet and rotor centroid. Printing can be done as two parts, easier to get the magnets in. The arms would be attached in the center to another support not shown. I'm still experimenting with the original design once I finalize it I'll print it and build.

Offline casman1969

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Re: Magnetic Motion Device
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2013, 07:43:51 PM »
Hi DTB,
 
Really like your graphic sim, nice work. That's exactly as I envision it. I doubt we'll be able to scale it down that far but it would be nice if possible. Curvature is going to effect the magnetic pattern so a compromise will most likely have to found. Also, in looking at the original setup it appears (heavy emphasis) that the stator magnets are 1 x 1/4 x 1/4 and the rotor mags are 1 x 1/4 x 1/8 or some comparable derivitive of that. Just an observation. Checked on the prcing for 100 of the former and the price would be $82.00 USD. Rotor mags are roughly $.50 apiece if my measurements are correct.
I have a couple of1/4" thick x 3" wide x 44" diameter aluminum rings and could double them up to give me 6" if needed but haven't calculated how many mags that would take. I still believe we'll have to curve the track first for proof of concept and that will require curving the rotor base to conform as well. Though all of us have seen this concept for a long time, this topic is renewing my interest.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Magnetic Motion Device
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2013, 07:43:51 PM »
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Offline casman1969

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Re: Magnetic Motion Device
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2013, 07:52:21 PM »
DTB,
 
Do you have a 3D printer???

Offline e2matrix

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Re: Magnetic Motion Device
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2013, 08:06:50 PM »
Hi DTB,
 
Really like your graphic sim, nice work. That's exactly as I envision it. I doubt we'll be able to scale it down that far but it would be nice if possible. Curvature is going to effect the magnetic pattern so a compromise will most likely have to found. Also, in looking at the original setup it appears (heavy emphasis) that the stator magnets are 1 x 1/4 x 1/4 and the rotor mags are 1 x 1/4 x 1/8 or some comparable derivitive of that. Just an observation. Checked on the prcing for 100 of the former and the price would be $82.00 USD. Rotor mags are roughly $.50 apiece if my measurements are correct.
I have a couple of1/4" thick x 3" wide x 44" diameter aluminum rings and could double them up to give me 6" if needed but haven't calculated how many mags that would take. I still believe we'll have to curve the track first for proof of concept and that will require curving the rotor base to conform as well. Though all of us have seen this concept for a long time, this topic is renewing my interest.
DTB  (not sure how I got DTF in previous post ? - sorry about that) I would agree with casman1969 that a circle that small seems like it would be too small just as an off-the-cuff guess.     
casman1969 do you think using aluminum rings would be a problem due to the Lenz effect they have - same as copper?   When I discovered the Lenz effect first hand I was dropping a magnet through both a copper tube and an aluminum tube to observe that almost eerie weird effect of watching the magnet slowly wiggle down through the tube.   Both copper and aluminum both had about the same effect.  I think it would put a lot of drag on the moving magnets unless you put in some material to keep them well away from the aluminum. 

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Magnetic Motion Device
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2013, 08:06:50 PM »
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Offline crazycut06

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Re: Magnetic Motion Device
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2013, 08:10:27 PM »

Hi DTB,
You can do a half track test first to minimize work and cost, see if it will run on curve, if it does, then construction of a whole scale will follow...
Regards
Cc

Offline casman1969

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Re: Magnetic Motion Device
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2013, 09:24:58 PM »
E2,
 
There's little doubt the lenz effect would be a problem if I put the mags too close to the aluminum but a plastic insert of maybe 3" should keep me far enough away to reduce that effect. First build for me will be strictly out of plastic/polycarbonate or something that I can bend and flex. Will watch what happens with DTB first since I'm still having too much fun with bedini type variations where I have two 6" aluminum disks, seperated by roughly 5" and have mounted four oposite pole facing neo's 1/2" tall by 3/4 width cylinder mags with a hole through the center for easy mounting on each disk and 4 wire Litz coils to drive it and play with tapping 1 or 2 of the wires to use as a generator. I believe the guage of each of the four litz wires is either 26 or 28. Anyway, it offers many combinations to play with. Haven't thrown a hall effect into the mix just yet since my tiny trigger coil made out of 40 guage seems to give me an adequately short duration pulse that I can chop, shorten and just plain work with. Only drawback is that darn 40 is so weak I've had to remake several times already but that's for anothere thread.
What might tie that into this is the thought of using DTB's concept on the outer edges of my bedini build as an assist.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Magnetic Motion Device
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2013, 09:24:58 PM »
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Offline b_rads

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Re: Magnetic Motion Device
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2013, 10:11:41 PM »
@DreamThinkBuild;
Curious, in your test build, if the rotor is placed beyond the first gate and released, does the rotor self accelerate or is the push through the first gate required?
 
Brad

Offline DreamThinkBuild

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Re: Magnetic Motion Device
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2013, 01:36:34 AM »
Hi Casman,

Quote
Really like your graphic sim, nice work.
Do you have a 3D printer???

Thank you, yes I have Makerbot Replicator 3D printer, took a while to save up for but worth every penny. Slowly paying itself back with repairs around the house and being able to test more complicated models.

I'm going to keep the design completely plastic except for the magnets to avoid any metal at first.

Hi E2Matrix,

I'll try the idea CrazyCut has suggested and do in segments and also putting small holes in the back of each magnet space they can be pushed out and reused if a design fails. Have to find the right curvature to maintain that pattern.

Hi CrazyCut,

Quote
You can do a half track test first to minimize work and cost, see if it will run on curve, if it does, then construction of a whole scale will follow...

Thanks, that is a very good idea!
Build just a quarter of the curve and see if it can navigate it. Then add a second quarter, then the last two quarters.

Hi Brad,

When the rotor is first pushed in there is resistance the two poles between rotor and stator are in direct opposition. Once the rotor gets halfway through the first stator magnet it takes off. Another interesting effect is if I put the rotor magnet in the middle of the track and keep the rotor stationary it will push the stator backwards in the opposite direction. So it might be possible to hold the rotor fixed and have the stator rotate around. I attached a picture of where the gating occurs the rotor is shown right where it takes off. It seems like once it gets in that barbed pattern setup by the stator it is squeezed out.

Offline crazycut06

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Re: Magnetic Motion Device
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2013, 05:42:15 AM »

Hi DTB,As i see it,  if there's a magnet beyond that gate it wil push through, so if it is continiously constructed it's possible to run without the sticky point,  well we need to know first if it will go into a curve.... thank you for sharing and effort... ;)  Will wait for your progress... :)


Regards
Cc

Offline Newton II

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Re: Magnetic Motion Device
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2013, 02:21:36 PM »

 Another interesting effect is if I put the rotor magnet in the middle of the track and keep the rotor stationary it will push the stator backwards in the opposite direction. So it might be possible to hold the rotor fixed and have the stator rotate around.


 
It is an interesting observation.   I think if both  rotor and stator are allowed to move in opposite directions,  the setup may become perpetual.   If you hold either rotor or stator stationary,  it may act as reaction (supporting force) and setup may come to equilibrium at some point.   You also may have to raise the initial speeds of both rotor and stator to some 'minimum' speed by applying external force, after which the setup may become perpetual.
 

 

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