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Author Topic: Das Triumphirende PERETUUM MOBILE ORFFYREANUM  (Read 36761 times)

Offline circle

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Re: Das Triumphirende PERETUUM MOBILE ORFFYREANUM
« Reply #45 on: March 13, 2013, 06:19:54 AM »
less than 12 to 15 moving parts per set of two weights
depending on how one builds the needed subcomponent 'triger' to retract the wood dowel at the 12:00 position
it releases the device to a diversion in the path of least resistance
what would you do with the solution..?
convience me to do that which you would do and consider it done
this is where you stand as you read this

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline circle

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Re: Das Triumphirende PERETUUM MOBILE ORFFYREANUM
« Reply #46 on: March 16, 2013, 09:38:55 PM »
..whatever idea you are contemplating as functional,
take and divide the device into two conceptual sides
ascending
and
descending
 
if you can get past the idea of holding to one favored method you may use simple analysis to see that which will not work
dismissing pursuit of those that are doomed to fail will free up your time to determine the correct method
 
methodologically proceding to catalogue types and forms will help you narrow down the search
once you see enough of the types that can not work in a collected group you should begin to see their common trait
once it dawns on you that you must find something lacking that feature you will be on the rather short path to solution

Offline circle

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Re: Das Triumphirende PERPETUUM MOBILE ORFFYREANUM
« Reply #47 on: March 18, 2013, 07:11:48 AM »
there is a single mention in this website of knot theory 
 
take a look 
 
consider the caliber of the poster who presented this information 
 
http://www.overunity.com/9638/gyroscopic-particles-how-they-work/msg296791/#msg296791 
 
consider also..
 
that books about steam engines are also equally scarce in your local library.. and yet the electricity that we rely on is produced by them
 
even if not suppressed there are certainly subjects that seem to be discouraged from proliferation
 
without a working knowledge of knot theory you are ill equipped to approach this problem 
 
i do not wish to be put in the pretentious spot of lording over you with vastly superior knowledge neither do i seek to offend by knowing that which you do not 
 
persons other than myself had written textbooks on the matter long before i knew such existed
 
if you were fortunate enough to have found this information you might easily have beat me to the re-discovery of besslers method 
 
honestly you are not able to appreciate how infantile your efforts at insight are in the absence of this single critical element of knowledge 
 
between besslers clues and my own i would suggest that this assignment might not be beyond a 5th grader who had been thoroughly (exhaustively) exposed to the precepts of knot theory

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Das Triumphirende PERPETUUM MOBILE ORFFYREANUM
« Reply #47 on: March 18, 2013, 07:11:48 AM »
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Offline vince

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Re: Das Triumphirende PERETUUM MOBILE ORFFYREANUM
« Reply #48 on: March 19, 2013, 11:17:46 PM »
@ Circle (aka "x" in another form)


I read your posts with great interest and anticipation.  I'm not quite sure of your ultimate goal .  You have stated that you know the solution to the age old perpetual motion quest and Bessler's design in particular. I believe you are very intelligent and may very well have discovered the design, however in other posts you have stated that you have not actually built a working prototype but may wish to have someone build it and allow you to share in any profits aswell be able to claim discovery title.  It always comes to this, just like Bessler no one wants their design to be stolen or copied because they feel that money and status will be the ultimate reward. Unfortunately in today's world an idea will quickly become common knowledge and may be copied or stolen very easily.  Profiting from something like this would be very difficult unless one could perfect a design that actually produces usable power, mass produces it, and puts it out for sale before copiers make their own version.  Selling your intellectual property to someone that is willing to pay for it  would give you your financial  reward but puts the buyer in the same predictament.


Many in this forum have the means and the ability to build your device .  I have been playing around with designs for years but reading your posts sparked my interest again.  I came up with some basic design criteria that are both obvious and unique. Allow me to share my thoughts, and on a latter post I will show pictures of 2 one arm prototypes that I built.
Any gravity wheel must have certain elements to make it function.
First a weight must be moved to a outermost radius in it's structure at approximately the 12 o'clock position.
It must maintain that position throughout its falling arc to approximately the 6 o'clock position., at which point it must be retracted to an innermost radius and held until it again reaches the 12 o'clock position.
To move that weight, one must employ a slave weight that must be heavier than the torque generating weight and also overcome any springs tension that may be used to maintain positioning.
The movement and path of the slave weight must not interfere with the balance of the rotating structure unless it benefits the gravity actions of the torque generating weight.
Latching may be necessary to hold the torque generating weight in either the inner or outer radius positions. The use of latching would require a fixed outer trigger position or a non rotating axle with a fixed  internal trigger to release the the latch mechanism.  (My 2prototypes do not use a latch)
Rotation speed is paramount.  A governor may be employed or some method of controlling rpm is essential because as speed increases centrifugal forces come to play and cause both slave weights and torque generating weights to assume set positions and become locked at those points.


There you have it, my simple thoughts on a gravity wheel design and by all accounts  both my designs work. My wheel segments push weights out at 12 o'clock and retract them at 6 o'clock. My slave weights move in a constant radius and do not affect balance. The Torque generating Weights maintain position throughout the   arcs and  do not need latching.  One would think I discovered the secret!!  BUUUUT!
I will wait till my next post to show you the BUUUT.


Seems I am not that smart after all!  Guess I will have to go back to 5th grade and learn Knot theory.(LOL)


In all fairness Circle , you are right. We cannot set our thoughts on simple traditional designs and not let our minds explore different ideas. 
I watched the video you posted on the X site about knot theory , and read several sites about the subject but to tell you the truth I cannot correlate the subject matter to the bessler wheel.  Your last post here shows a cross sectional view of a wheel ( not sure who's design) where the last activating mechanism has a
Conical drum and an endless rope arrangement that moves 2 outer drums or weights. Is this where knot theory comes to play in a looped drive?


Sorry for the long post ,  but the possibility of gravity wheels has always been a fascinating subject.


Vince




Offline conradelektro

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Re: Das Triumphirende PERETUUM MOBILE ORFFYREANUM
« Reply #49 on: March 19, 2013, 11:40:04 PM »
To claim one has a "solution" before one has proven it with a self running Bessler wheel is strange.

It is even stranger to think about "money making and fame" before one has proven the "solution" with a self running wheel.

Do the difficult (building a working wheel) first and solve all the other "problems" later. Most likely there will be no "problems".

Greetings, Conrad

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Das Triumphirende PERETUUM MOBILE ORFFYREANUM
« Reply #49 on: March 19, 2013, 11:40:04 PM »
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Offline circle

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Re: Das Triumphirende PERETUUM MOBILE ORFFYREANUM
« Reply #50 on: March 21, 2013, 01:44:14 AM »
@ Circle (aka "x" in another form)


I read your posts with great interest and anticipation.  I'm not quite sure of your ultimate goal .  You have stated that you know the solution to the age old perpetual motion quest and Bessler's design in particular. I believe you are very intelligent and may very well have discovered the design, however in other posts you have stated that you have not actually built a working prototype but may wish to have someone build it and allow you to share in any profits aswell be able to claim discovery title.  It always comes to this, just like Bessler no one wants their design to be stolen or copied because they feel that money and status will be the ultimate reward. Unfortunately in today's world an idea will quickly become common knowledge and may be copied or stolen very easily.  Profiting from something like this would be very difficult unless one could perfect a design that actually produces usable power, mass produces it, and puts it out for sale before copiers make their own version.  Selling your intellectual property to someone that is willing to pay for it  would give you your financial  reward but puts the buyer in the same predictament.


Many in this forum have the means and the ability to build your device .  I have been playing around with designs for years but reading your posts sparked my interest again.  I came up with some basic design criteria that are both obvious and unique. Allow me to share my thoughts, and on a latter post I will show pictures of 2 one arm prototypes that I built.
Any gravity wheel must have certain elements to make it function.
First a weight must be moved to a outermost radius in it's structure at approximately the 12 o'clock position.
It must maintain that position throughout its falling arc to approximately the 6 o'clock position., at which point it must be retracted to an innermost radius and held until it again reaches the 12 o'clock position.
To move that weight, one must employ a slave weight that must be heavier than the torque generating weight and also overcome any springs tension that may be used to maintain positioning.
The movement and path of the slave weight must not interfere with the balance of the rotating structure unless it benefits the gravity actions of the torque generating weight.
Latching may be necessary to hold the torque generating weight in either the inner or outer radius positions. The use of latching would require a fixed outer trigger position or a non rotating axle with a fixed  internal trigger to release the the latch mechanism.  (My 2prototypes do not use a latch)
Rotation speed is paramount.  A governor may be employed or some method of controlling rpm is essential because as speed increases centrifugal forces come to play and cause both slave weights and torque generating weights to assume set positions and become locked at those points.


There you have it, my simple thoughts on a gravity wheel design and by all accounts  both my designs work. My wheel segments push weights out at 12 o'clock and retract them at 6 o'clock. My slave weights move in a constant radius and do not affect balance. The Torque generating Weights maintain position throughout the   arcs and  do not need latching.  One would think I discovered the secret!!  BUUUUT!
I will wait till my next post to show you the BUUUT.


Seems I am not that smart after all!  Guess I will have to go back to 5th grade and learn Knot theory.(LOL)


In all fairness Circle , you are right. We cannot set our thoughts on simple traditional designs and not let our minds explore different ideas. 
I watched the video you posted on the X site about knot theory , and read several sites about the subject but to tell you the truth I cannot correlate the subject matter to the bessler wheel.  Your last post here shows a cross sectional view of a wheel ( not sure who's design) where the last activating mechanism has a
Conical drum and an endless rope arrangement that moves 2 outer drums or weights. Is this where knot theory comes to play in a looped drive?


Sorry for the long post ,  but the possibility of gravity wheels has always been a fascinating subject.


Vince
i like to be thorough.. but there are many points to respond to in your post
i see four basic concepts to address here.. maybe more if we are to get into the details of your design
first, as far as objectives go.. i consider it improbable that i could become the title holder to such a device.. despite the fact that i hold the concept
in this modern world things can be controlled in ways people seldom consider
for example; how very few people can say that they have seen the college newspaper front page photo of young clinton living in a tree on campus? the article detailed how it was being done in protest to the vietnam conflict and mentioned that the fire department had come out to spray under the tree due to the stench (as he never left the tree.. even having assignments and books brought to him)
with over 3000 copies you would think that one had run the gantlet and made it to the public.. but no.. that was not to be
..as with the buzz saw device, an exclusion process was carried out
 
it is a select few who even are inclined to be aware of such things
 
if not to disclose it.. my idea of using the device for profit would probably involve hiding its output by running several other systems; wind, solar, water and such
otherwise, it will take more than simply building it to capitalize on it

second, you describe a system that has many similarities to the device as bessler arranged it and you seem to have several of the concepts broken into clear independent elements.. the system that bessler used was a very efficient method of accomplishing several things at once so gracefully that it is deceptively simple
the simple parts are tasked to so many functions in a moment of turning that it can become disorienting trying to assign them simple names based on their function
the two weights are equal and seem to accomplish all the functions you assign as needed though i am not making a through comparison here
 
third and fourth.. 
the connection of knot theory to the wheel is in the path of the weights
and
the device that you take note of was bessers idea of a motorized wagon 
although i do not have a full understanding of his diagram for it,
the conical set up with the belt drive was pretty advanced stuff for its time
 
to further address the third point i singled out as a topic..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mdEsouIXGM

Offline circle

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Re: Das Triumphirende PERETUUM MOBILE ORFFYREANUM
« Reply #51 on: March 21, 2013, 02:00:06 AM »
if you turn the number 8 on its side you get ∞
look at the path..
down up down up
with four points of transition
the solution to besslers device.. is anti-climactic

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Das Triumphirende PERETUUM MOBILE ORFFYREANUM
« Reply #51 on: March 21, 2013, 02:00:06 AM »
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Offline vince

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Re: Das Triumphirende PERETUUM MOBILE ORFFYREANUM
« Reply #52 on: March 21, 2013, 02:45:55 AM »
@circle
Your clues are intriguing!  I commend you with your ability to captivate.



Vince
« Last Edit: March 21, 2013, 05:21:10 AM by vince »

Offline circle

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Re: Das Triumphirende PERETUUM MOBILE ORFFYREANUM
« Reply #53 on: March 30, 2013, 10:02:26 AM »
didnt forget that the clue was stated clearly that the two weights switch position did you?
look for when and where this happens
preferably after figuring out why most catagories of design are not feasable in and of themselves
the solution has one design affecting the assending and
another affecting the decending
 
one weight truly does lift the other
and then they reverse roles
 
of course the battle that most people think they are fighting is to make one single undivided weight lift itself over the top
this also truly can not happen
 
the most recent images show 90 views
is this really the number of people who have taken note of what is on offer here?
 
that the design needs not to be built to know its viability is a matter of comprehension
if you do not comprehend it then you will need physical evidence of function
 
the function of the correct design is as clear as that of a simple hole
if you do not comprehend what will happen when you step in it perhaps you need to find out by experience..
 
please do better than to compare the evaluations of a mechanical engineer to those of an employed physicist who is tasked with inspection of reactors across the globe

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Das Triumphirende PERETUUM MOBILE ORFFYREANUM
« Reply #53 on: March 30, 2013, 10:02:26 AM »
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Offline vince

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Re: Das Triumphirende PERETUUM MOBILE ORFFYREANUM
« Reply #54 on: March 30, 2013, 09:29:45 PM »
The solution is now becoming more clear
Though most will still jeer
And will never come to see
Just how simple it can be
Two will lift two
And reverse in full view
The weights on one side
Will never collide
They follow a gate
That is akin to an eight
Gears will rotate to an outer condition
While the opposites are now reverse that position
Making it turn
Is still a concern
Latching has still eluded the quest
But I'm confident I'll give it my best

Offline vince

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Re: Das Triumphirende PERETUUM MOBILE ORFFYREANUM
« Reply #55 on: March 31, 2013, 01:56:41 AM »
As promised I am showing my two designs that I mentioned on an earlier post.  Proof of concept #1 was my first quick trial. It did what I expected, that is extend the torque weight at the top and retract it at the bottom of the arc. Proof of concept #2 was a new twist on the design and I went to a more substantial build in steel with 2 arms.  It also did what I expected, that is extend and retract at the correct positions.

Both these designs are conventional thinking,ie. " what many would think of in a design". 

Would they work? Maybe! But probably not.

What is wrong with them?
Both are extremely RPM sensitive, they will lock up with any increase in speed.
#1 does not extend until 1:30 to 2 o'clock and retracts at 6:30 to 7:00 o'clock. Too much arc lost in down stroke and stays extended to long on the upstroke.
#2 extends at about 1:00 and retracts at about 7:00.  It will drop about 100 t0 120 degrees if brought just past 12:00 o'clock
Both have very little net falling weight when the other weights are factored in, so any runner would have very little torque.
#2 might actually rotate on its own but the actual torque would be so small that it was not worth the build. The amount of slave weight relative to the torque weight is quite large and means little torue left over to do any work. Adjusting the stroke eases the weight but decreases extension of the outer weight.  #2 was a definite positive .  With more arms it might just rotate, but I'm sure it will have so little torque that I am abandoning that design.

Circle is right. These designs cannot work.
My little poem in the previous post eludes to my new line of thinking after considering all the clues circle has given.

Vince



Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Das Triumphirende PERETUUM MOBILE ORFFYREANUM
« Reply #55 on: March 31, 2013, 01:56:41 AM »
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Offline circle

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Re: Das Triumphirende PERETUUM MOBILE ORFFYREANUM
« Reply #56 on: April 04, 2013, 02:21:30 AM »
...

Offline circle

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Re: Das Triumphirende PERETUUM MOBILE ORFFYREANUM
« Reply #57 on: April 06, 2013, 09:39:56 PM »
 
if you set a (non metric) ruler on the edge of a desk.. with 6.5 of the 12 inches resting on the surface of the desk and 5.5 over the edge you have no doubt of the effects of placing a coin (weight) at the end of the ruler that has nothing supporting it from falling
 
the imbalance of the correct design is that clear and pronounced and that simple
after all, as the evidence shows, it did function and was displayed
and clearly, i am 'claiming' to be able to describe it in detail to the extent that it could be built by anyone who happend to read my description
 
i suppose i am still on the fence about the whole open source thing..
as i ponder this i have come close to posting the definitive details here
but look at how small a group of people we are reaching here
(how about a 1% finders fee for anyone bringing me a buyer? ..to make it clear that an opportunity exists; my price {stated in previous post on this site} will increase to besslers original asking price {mentioned on page 96} if i have to build it prior to the begining of structuring a sale)[in this modern world the device is worth 100 times what bessler was asking and still there are those who suppose that i should offer it for free to people who can not even interpret the visual diagrams accurately.. as well as to those who have malicious intent alike]
 
otherwise, i would be interested in hearing from persons who have the ability to assist in gaining ownership control over this design
they will not be disapointed in the quality of my information

Offline conradelektro

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Re: Das Triumphirende PERETUUM MOBILE ORFFYREANUM
« Reply #58 on: April 07, 2013, 11:33:47 AM »

 i am 'claiming' to be able to describe it in detail to the extent that it could be built by anyone who happend to read my description
 
i suppose i am still on the fence about the whole open source thing..
as i ponder this i have come close to posting the definitive details here
but look at how small a group of people we are reaching here
(how about a 1% finders fee for anyone bringing me a buyer? ..to make it clear that an opportunity exists; my price {stated in previous post on this site} will increase to besslers original asking price {mentioned on page 96} if i have to build it prior to the begining of structuring a sale)[in this modern world the device is worth 100 times what bessler was asking and still there are those who suppose that i should offer it for free to people who can not even interpret the visual diagrams accurately.. as well as to those who have malicious intent alike]
 
otherwise, i would be interested in hearing from persons who have the ability to assist in gaining ownership control over this design
they will not be disapointed in the quality of my information

Mr. Circle, stop going in circles.

1. Build a functioning Bessler wheel.
2. In case it works, patent it.
3. Once you have filed the patent, show it.
4. Then you might find believers and money givers.

Whatever you want to do, never forget point 1, which is to build a functioning Bessler wheel. What comes afterwards is trivial. And we never see "point 1" from any OU-inventor, only ravings about what comes after the elusive "point 1".

There are many thousands of patents about non functioning machines, so please, do not start with "point 2".

Greetings, Conrad

Offline circle

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Re: Das Triumphirende PERETUUM MOBILE ORFFYREANUM
« Reply #59 on: April 07, 2013, 04:58:42 PM »
 
as bessler said it he was supprised and relieved when he found that he had correctly guessed the solution after he built it and set it in motion
 
but from the vantage of knowing that there exists a solution.. it can be discovered in obesrvation of the principals involved
 
typical of those who desire the results without persuing the task of developing them is the notion that the physical model has greater value than the conceptual one
 
if bessler had not started with the correct concept he could not have done any different than the many thousands of failed efforts
 
my concern is that this has already been built and pattened and title 35 has taken its toll
in this circumstance i can offer it to the public up until i cross the line and disclose to the pattent office

 

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