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Author Topic: Das Triumphirende PERETUUM MOBILE ORFFYREANUM  (Read 41287 times)

Offline conradelektro

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Re: Das Triumphirende PERETUUM MOBILE ORFFYREANUM
« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2013, 03:25:13 PM »
@circle: You claim to have some insight. The only way to prove the validity or correctness of your self proclaimed insight is the replication of a Bessler Wheel that turns by itself for a considerable length of time.

Your claims and statements would be much more interesting could you show a turning Bessler Wheel.

We have books and claims since centuries and no turning Bessler Wheel. In the last decades we have numerous web sites, discussion threads and replication attempts, and still no turning Bessler Wheel.

In order to get some credit, you should offer more than words and insinuations. You are entitled to keep you secret, but show something tangible. Otherwise you are like the many people who have shown up in this forum with big words and nothing behind the claim but ego.

In case you want to guard a secret, well, shut up. What sense does it make to claim to have a secrete? A secret has to be kept secrete. Talk about it is either stupidity (because it puts the secrete in danger) or an attempt to make oneself interesting (which is more in the field of clinical psychology or mental health conditions).

Greetings, Conrad

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Das Triumphirende PERETUUM MOBILE ORFFYREANUM
« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2013, 03:25:13 PM »

Offline zoelra

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Re: Das Triumphirende PERETUUM MOBILE ORFFYREANUM
« Reply #16 on: February 11, 2013, 05:28:26 PM »
I find myself in agreement with conradelektro.  If you DON'T have a runner to back up your claim, you should NOT expect to be taken seriously no matter what you think you know or were told.  History is littered with people making this claim, and to date, based on publicly documented eye witness accounts, it appears that only three people have produced runners: Bessler, Keno, and Jackson.

In the past I have defended others (such as christo4_99) to make such claims, and I would defend anyone's right to do so, but I also take their claims with a fair amount of skepticism.

I myself have spoken with a very qualified and respected mechanical engineer on two occasions regarding an idea I was working on and he was very interested to see what I was doing and urged me to continue.  Well not long after that I came to realize I was coming to a dead end.  So what I learned from this person is to not put so much stock in what other so called "experts" have to say.  No one can be an expert in an area where only three others have previously succeeded.  Really only two if you consider Keno was a Bessler descendent and probably had access to Bessler's original notes.

Only a build will substantiate your idea and prove your claim.  Until then, it is just an unproven idea, maybe brilliant, but nonetheless unproven.



Offline conradelektro

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Re: Das Triumphirende PERETUUM MOBILE ORFFYREANUM
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2013, 05:39:13 PM »
Please look at the attached drawing. I added two enlargements on the right side of the drawing.

The lever carrying weights W1 and W2 at its ends is not in balance because its turning points C1 (red) and C2 (blue) are off centre. The strange arc (instead of a bearing or hole) insures that the lever either rest with C1 or with C2 on the horizontal pole around which it turns. In case the lever rests with turning point C1 on the pole the weight W1 is on the longer arm (of the lever) and pulls the lever down on the left side.

In case the crank (or the wheel) stalls (stops) at the moment depicted in the drawing, the rods 9 and 9a will shift the lever so that its turning point becomes C2 which puts weight W2 on the longer arm (of the lever) and makes the weight W2 pull the lever down on the right side.

The "stalling mechanism" (blocking and unblocking mechanism) might be operated by what Bessler hides as an "open lock" and some little thing in a hole in the base of pole 4.

Now, this might explain the swinging of the pendulum 8 from side to side, but it still can not explain unassisted continuous motion as many experiments with pendulums have shown. Shifting the turning point of a pendulum by the pendulum itself, does not provide a perpetuum mobile. The shifting "costs energy" which has to come from an outside source and can not be provided by the pendulum itself (or it will eventually stop).

But inside the wheel there could be a wound up spring which imparts a little momentum each time the lever has to be shifted from turning point C1 to C2 or from C2 to C1. This could be a balance wheel like in a clock ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balance_wheel ) freeing and then blocking the wound up spring at the right moment. So, during each turn of the wheel the wound up spring would only act once to impart a little momentum.

Poster "circle" sees some asymmetry in the wheel. This could be the distance between the "teeth" or "poles". But this could just be sloppy drawing.

Greetings, Conrad

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Das Triumphirende PERETUUM MOBILE ORFFYREANUM
« Reply #17 on: February 11, 2013, 05:39:13 PM »
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Offline zoelra

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Re: Das Triumphirende PERETUUM MOBILE ORFFYREANUM
« Reply #18 on: February 11, 2013, 06:02:40 PM »
Conrad, none of the eyewitness accounts stated that the pendulums were present when the wheels were exhibited.  The thought is they were added to the pictures as some sort of clue to their inner workings of the wheel, but no one knows for sure.

You mentioned the pivot point of one of the pendulums was not centered.  That is because the pendulum in question is actually being viewed from an angle.  The picture includes two views of the same wheel (front/rear view and side view).  In the front/rear view (which is the wheel on the left), Bessler appears to have angled the pendulum to show it's connections.  In the side view (the wheel on the right), you can see the pivot point better.


Offline circle

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Re: Das Triumphirende PERPETUUM MOBILE ORFFYREANUM
« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2013, 06:36:39 AM »
ok.. well ..i don't see much need to continue to entertain neophytes or naysayers
my time is limited enough as it is
i will respond only to those who are lucid and cognizant

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Das Triumphirende PERPETUUM MOBILE ORFFYREANUM
« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2013, 06:36:39 AM »
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Offline zoelra

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Re: Das Triumphirende PERETUUM MOBILE ORFFYREANUM
« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2013, 06:02:48 PM »
@Circle

I have not heard back from you.  Did you happen to see my message to you on February 07, 2013, 06:49:56 PM?

Or perhaps you consider me not lucid or cognizant, and not worthy of your response.  I hope this is not the case.

Quote
Quote from Circle today at 06:36:39 AM
i will respond only to those who are lucid and cognizant



Offline conradelektro

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Re: Das Triumphirende PERPETUUM MOBILE ORFFYREANUM
« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2013, 09:39:18 PM »
ok.. well ..i don't see much need to continue to entertain neophytes or naysayers
my time is limited enough as it is
i will respond only to those who are lucid and cognizant

@circle: I am looking forward to see something lucid posted by you.

So far I am only seeing "triumphierend nutzlose Seiten aus einem alten Buch" (Triumphantly useless pages from an old book.)

How about showing a continuously turning Bessler Wheel? That would be triumphantly impressive.

Greetings, Conrad

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Das Triumphirende PERPETUUM MOBILE ORFFYREANUM
« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2013, 09:39:18 PM »
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Offline circle

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Re: Das Triumphirende PERETUUM MOBILE ORFFYREANUM
« Reply #22 on: February 15, 2013, 03:25:10 AM »
Conrad, none of the eyewitness accounts stated that the pendulums were present when the wheels were exhibited.  The thought is they were added to the pictures as some sort of clue to their inner workings of the wheel, but no one knows for sure.

You mentioned the pivot point of one of the pendulums was not centered.  That is because the pendulum in question is actually being viewed from an angle.  The picture includes two views of the same wheel (front/rear view and side view).  In the front/rear view (which is the wheel on the left), Bessler appears to have angled the pendulum to show it's connections.  In the side view (the wheel on the right), you can see the pivot point better.

i thought you were doing a fine job of explaining stuff that should have been obvious
very patient and considerate of you to take the time to do so
i was once as confused as conrad but i looked at my confusion honestly and confronted it
within minutes i had the points that i did know identified and was building on them
the fact that i did not understand it was not an amorphous blob in my mind; it was a starting point
i set out to find out if enough data existed to determine what was inside
i did not assume i would be able to solve it; i did however assume that i would eventually be able to say that enough pieces of data exist or do not exist (or remain not yet known by me)
if i could find enough evidence in the historical record then i would consider that
if he was a fraud i wanted to discover that, or at least to suspect it based on evidence
whatever the truth was i was seeking it
but to look at what was displayed
the evidence indicated he had done it
so i followed his lead
it is very cleverly done
i can honestly say i dont think i could have solved it on my own with out following him
even with no load a single pair of weights will almost stop when at the top about to fall a second time
this is seen as not being possible and effects kneejerk reactions
but once explained even a physicist can see why the device worked then and will work again..
every fragment of the descriptions on record that i have yet encountered conform with my insight on the matter

Offline conradelektro

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Re: Das Triumphirende PERETUUM MOBILE ORFFYREANUM
« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2013, 03:28:59 PM »
i was once as confused as conrad but i looked at my confusion honestly and confronted it
within minutes i had the points that i did know identified and was building on them
the fact that i did not understand it was not an amorphous blob in my mind; it was a starting point
i set out to find out if enough data existed to determine what was inside
i did not assume i would be able to solve it; i did however assume that i would eventually be able to say that enough pieces of data exist or do not exist (or remain not yet known by me)
if i could find enough evidence in the historical record then i would consider that
if he was a fraud i wanted to discover that, or at least to suspect it based on evidence
whatever the truth was i was seeking it
but to look at what was displayed
the evidence indicated he had done it
so i followed his lead
it is very cleverly done
i can honestly say i dont think i could have solved it on my own with out following him
even with no load a single pair of weights will almost stop when at the top about to fall a second time
this is seen as not being possible and effects kneejerk reactions
but once explained even a physicist can see why the device worked then and will work again..
every fragment of the descriptions on record that i have yet encountered conform with my insight on the matter

What can I say being confronted with such wisdom, genius and overwhelming mental capabilities? I bow my head and cringe in the dust.

It is a tragedy that the world had to wait so many aeons till the mental powers of "circle" emerged. How could we have confronted the challenges of the 21st century without the intellectual gifts of "circle"?

Oh "circle", great one, superior one, god like one, please do not enlighten us, we are not worthy. Keep your secret, the world and certainly me, we are not ready for it.

Greetings, Conrad

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Das Triumphirende PERETUUM MOBILE ORFFYREANUM
« Reply #23 on: February 15, 2013, 03:28:59 PM »
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Offline johnny874

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Re: Das Triumphirende PERETUUM MOBILE ORFFYREANUM
« Reply #24 on: February 15, 2013, 10:20:30 PM »
Conrad, none of the eyewitness accounts stated that the pendulums were present when the wheels were exhibited.  The thought is they were added to the pictures as some sort of clue to their inner workings of the wheel, but no one knows for sure.

You mentioned the pivot point of one of the pendulums was not centered.  That is because the pendulum in question is actually being viewed from an angle.  The picture includes two views of the same wheel (front/rear view and side view).  In the front/rear view (which is the wheel on the left), Bessler appears to have angled the pendulum to show it's connections.  In the side view (the wheel on the right), you can see the pivot point better.

  Zoelra,
 In those drawings, the pendulum's I believe have 2 meanings. One is as Bessler said and is to allow a fluid movement.
There is another drawing with a pendulum that is a clue as to hoiw they work in the wheel.
 I may need to wait until I get my tax return before I can make any real progress on my build. Had to miss a day and a half this week. About over my medical problems so need to do what I can when I can.
 Still, it does allow me the opportunity to review and go into more detail what I am working on.
 
                                                                                                               Johnny874

Offline zoelra

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Re: Das Triumphirende PERETUUM MOBILE ORFFYREANUM
« Reply #25 on: February 15, 2013, 10:33:18 PM »
@conradelektro

I believe Circle knows what he is talking about.  You really don't expect him to come here and just give away the secret do you.  This used to tick me off about christo4_99, but after a while you get used to it.  Spend some time on www.besslerwheel.com or http://johncollinsnews.blogspot.com and you will see that no one is giving up what they know, and no one is asking them to do so.  You will see the members on those forums from time to time bounce ideas off one another, and share some insight, but that is all you are going to get.  This is not to say that there aren't some who do work openly, but they are few and far between.  Cryptic clues are a way of helping others only if they are working in the same direction and can pick up on them.  If you want to make sense of Circle's clues, you need to understand and be working on the type of design he has referred to in his posts.  Just my thoughts.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Das Triumphirende PERETUUM MOBILE ORFFYREANUM
« Reply #25 on: February 15, 2013, 10:33:18 PM »
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Offline conradelektro

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Re: Das Triumphirende PERETUUM MOBILE ORFFYREANUM
« Reply #26 on: February 15, 2013, 10:44:40 PM »
@conradelektro

I believe Circle knows what he is talking about.  You really don't expect him to come here and just give away the secret do you.  This used to tick me off about christo4_99, but after a while you get used to it.  Spend some time on www.besslerwheel.com or http://johncollinsnews.blogspot.com and you will see that no one is giving up what they know, and no one is asking them to do so.  You will see the members on those forums from time to time bounce ideas off one another, and share some insight, but that is all you are going to get.  This is not to say that there aren't some who do work openly, but they are few and far between.  Cryptic clues are a way of helping others only if they are working in the same direction and can pick up on them.  If you want to make sense of Circle's clues, you need to understand and be working on the type of design he has referred to in his posts.  Just my thoughts.

Well, I do not understand the logic behind "keeping a secret but talking about it in cryptic terms". But I do not have to understand it. So far we still live in a free world where foolishness is not a crime.

May be some people are lonely and have a need to interact even when it is a strange way of conversing. For me the behaviour of "circle" is attention seeking and that annoys me. But it is my own fault, I should just ignore such people.

Greetings, Conrad

Offline circle

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Re: Das Triumphirende PERETUUM MOBILE ORFFYREANUM
« Reply #27 on: February 16, 2013, 04:48:45 AM »
@circle,

In your understanding of this device, do you see the output torque from just the inner motions being constant?

once in motion it will reach a pace at which it will resist change whether forced to move slower or faster
although the tendency for constant pace can be overcome by sufficient force in either direction, faster or slower (at which point normal function of the parts will be disrupted) the output torque will be proportional to this ideal constant pace until the pace is sufficiently changed as it would be under excessive load

Offline johnny874

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Re: Das Triumphirende PERETUUM MOBILE ORFFYREANUM
« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2013, 06:35:05 PM »
once in motion it will reach a pace at which it will resist change whether forced to move slower or faster
although the tendency for constant pace can be overcome by sufficient force in either direction, faster or slower (at which point normal function of the parts will be disrupted) the output torque will be proportional to this ideal constant pace until the pace is sufficiently changed as it would be under excessive load

  I like the way you stated Newton's 3rd Law of motion;
 Third law: When a first body exerts a force F1 on a second body, the second body simultaneously exerts a force F2 = −F1 on the first body. This means that F1 and F2 are equal in magnitude and opposite in direction.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton's_laws_of_motion

Offline circle

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Re: Das Triumphirende PERETUUM MOBILE ORFFYREANUM
« Reply #29 on: February 20, 2013, 04:30:20 AM »
...

 

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