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Hydrogen energy => Electrolysis of H20 and Hydrogen on demand generation => Topic started by: pauldude000 on February 01, 2013, 12:14:06 PM

Title: Resonance and HHO
Post by: pauldude000 on February 01, 2013, 12:14:06 PM
I am not new to OU, but I am somewhat of a newbie to HHO. Something which has niggled at the back of my mind, nagging me for years has been the concept of producing HHO using resonance.


What I mean by this is the process of applying an electrical signal, the frequency of which is a sub-harmonic to the length of the H20 water molecule, which should make it vibrate like a bad dog. Not wasteful of energy like a microwave, but tuned as close as possible; treating the length of the water molecule as a quarter wavelength. If allowed to remain, this would just heat the water. However, vibrating at its natural resonant frequency a sudden input of dis-harmonic energy(sudden bursts of DC) should cause the molecule to throw itself apart, in conception sort of like a V8 engine at too high of RPM's. Frequency should be the key here, though higher voltage or amperage should yield higher volume/time.


Basically using finesse and not a sledgehammer. What made me originally think of this was Tesla's mechanical resonance experiments.


What do you guys think, and please share input. You longtimers at HHO may have already tried this, and I may be spouting old hat concepts here. If anyone knows the specific physical length of a water molecule it would be helpful.
Title: Re: Resonance and HHO
Post by: Gwandau on February 03, 2013, 11:16:00 PM
Hi pauldude000,
 
glad to se you also are intrigued by the mystery of water and its hidden promise of abundant energy.
 
 
Water molecules are V-shaped with a molecular diameter ranging from about 2.75 Å (275 picometers), or more clearly, having the shape of a triangle with 2 sides measuring 95pm and one side measuring156pm.

The reason for differing values 275 versus 156 pm lies in the variation due to the vibrational condition of the water molecule quoted from link below:
 
"The actual values depend on the vibrational state of the molecule with even values of 180° being attainable during high order bend vibrations (v2 >= 7 (http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/vibrat.html), λ < 900 nm) for the H-O-H angle. Vibrations are asymmetric around the mean positions. In the ground state, the bond angle is 104.5°.The atomic diameter can be determined from interpolation of the effective ionic radii of the isoelectronic ions (from crystal data) of O2- (2.80 Å), OH- (2.74 Å) and H3O+ (2.76 Å) . Coincidentally, this diameter is similar to the length of a hydrogen bond (http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/hbond.html). The water molecule bond length is 0.96 Å."

As you can see I found a nice page with easily accessed information regarding the unique properties of water. I highly recommend anyone exploring the HHO path to get in depth aqquainted with the mysterious molecule before applying any ideas in the workshop.
 
http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/molecule.html (http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/molecule.html)

This is very intriguing:
"In the liquid state, in spite of 80% of the electrons being concerned with bonding, the three atoms do not stay together as the hydrogen atoms are constantly exchanging between water molecules due to protonation/deprotonation processes." "The hydrogen bonds are continually breaking and reforming at timescales faster than 200 femtoseconds."
 
This link from same page shows the vibrational spectra of liquid water, and the chart depicted there may be of interest:
 
http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/vibrat.html (http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/vibrat.html)

 
We are no doubt standing on the tip of the iceberg here, below us are a massive amount of parameters to be taken into consideration.
Among all the different parameters to consider we have for example the three dimensional crystal structure of the liquid phase of water, which is a big chapter in itself.
 
As far as I am concerned, correctly implemented resonance geometry is the key to HHO. But if it was as simple as the frequency directly related to the diameter of the water molecule, many before us would have found the key long ago. No, be prepared for a much longer journey, much deeper down into the mystery of water, if you want to succeed in what everybody else on earth hitherto have failed to find.
 
Take a look at the phenomenon of resonance itself and ask yourself why reverbration phenomena is found everywhere, from the macro level and expressed as nodes all the way down to the Planck scale. I regard resonance in all its forms as reflections of the source dynamics responsible for the very existence of matter itself. It is like echoes from the zero point geometry.
 
Resonce patterns reflects the innermost qualities of time, space and matter.

Yes, resonance certainly is the key, and the intricate design of the resonance pattern needed to open up the HHO door remains to be found. And just like a perfect musical composition, the instruments has to be perfectly tuned for the key to work.
 

The HHO path is an unparalleled adventure in the alternative energy quest, when the key is found, energy will be abundant and the monetary system will dissolve and humanity take its first steps into true freedom.
 

Gwandau
Title: Re: Resonance and HHO
Post by: TechStuf on February 05, 2013, 07:16:40 AM
Quote
The HHO path is an unparalleled adventure in the alternative energy quest, when the key is found, energy will be abundant and the monetary system will dissolve and humanity take its first steps into true freedom

Poetic!  Naive.  But poetic!

First, the HHO path is a much paralleled adventure.  Thus far, all alternative energy adventures have largely run parallel courses....and who ends up holding the keys?  And as for the monetary system, it is already insolvent, so only the illusion of the system remains, and it too dissolves as we speak.  Does one really think that the myriad rocket equipped drones being manufactured at a frenetic pace, the millions of rounds of ammo purchased by the DHS, the many piles of plastic FEMA coffins, and the many road signs reading: "Martial law in effect" are just for show, or just in case?  The powers that be aren't waiting around for the keys to a 'molecular savior', as they have proven that they have all the toys they can handle (and then some) in order to 'handle' those their hypocritical eyes identify as unfit for their long planned new odor of things.

And as for humanity taking it's first steps into 'true freedom', I would remind one that man has a sordid history of trampling myriad 'free gifts' into the mud from which he came.  And only seems to appreciate, if for a short time, just the costly ones.
 
Free energy?  Look at what it's cost so far....and who (as foretold) holds the power at this late hour.

As for the the True steps to True Freedom, there aren't many left to take, and they all lead to the feet of Jesus Christ. 

Free energy and True freedom combined.

"They will cry peace! Peace! when there is no peace"  "Wars and the rumors of war".

"I come not to bring peace, but a sword!"

So, Whose side do you fight for, dear reader, your own? The enemies of God, or will you stand with the One Who believes in you more than you could possibly believe in Him?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7dpGWYZMDc (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7dpGWYZMDc)



TS
Title: Re: Resonance and HHO
Post by: pauldude000 on February 05, 2013, 05:09:58 PM
Hi pauldude000,
 
glad to se you also are intrigued by the mystery of water and its hidden promise of abundant energy.
 
 
Water molecules are V-shaped with a molecular diameter ranging from about 2.75 Å (275 picometers), or more clearly, having the shape of a triangle with 2 sides measuring 95pm and one side measuring156pm.

The reason for differing values 275 versus 156 pm lies in the variation due to the vibrational condition of the water molecule quoted from link below:
 
"The actual values depend on the vibrational state of the molecule with even values of 180° being attainable during high order bend vibrations (v2 >= 7 (http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/vibrat.html), λ < 900 nm) for the H-O-H angle. Vibrations are asymmetric around the mean positions. In the ground state, the bond angle is 104.5°.The atomic diameter can be determined from interpolation of the effective ionic radii of the isoelectronic ions (from crystal data) of O2- (2.80 Å), OH- (2.74 Å) and H3O+ (2.76 Å) . Coincidentally, this diameter is similar to the length of a hydrogen bond (http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/hbond.html). The water molecule bond length is 0.96 Å."

As you can see I found a nice page with easily accessed information regarding the unique properties of water. I highly recommend anyone exploring the HHO path to get in depth aqquainted with the mysterious molecule before applying any ideas in the workshop.
 
http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/molecule.html (http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/molecule.html)

This is very intriguing:
"In the liquid state, in spite of 80% of the electrons being concerned with bonding, the three atoms do not stay together as the hydrogen atoms are constantly exchanging between water molecules due to protonation/deprotonation processes." "The hydrogen bonds are continually breaking and reforming at timescales faster than 200 femtoseconds."
 
This link from same page shows the vibrational spectra of liquid water, and the chart depicted there may be of interest:
 
http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/vibrat.html (http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/vibrat.html)

 
We are no doubt standing on the tip of the iceberg here, below us are a massive amount of parameters to be taken into consideration.
Among all the different parameters to consider we have for example the three dimensional crystal structure of the liquid phase of water, which is a big chapter in itself.
 
As far as I am concerned, correctly implemented resonance geometry is the key to HHO. But if it was as simple as the frequency directly related to the diameter of the water molecule, many before us would have found the key long ago. No, be prepared for a much longer journey, much deeper down into the mystery of water, if you want to succeed in what everybody else on earth hitherto have failed to find.
 
Take a look at the phenomenon of resonance itself and ask yourself why reverbration phenomena is found everywhere, from the macro level and expressed as nodes all the way down to the Planck scale. I regard resonance in all its forms as reflections of the source dynamics responsible for the very existence of matter itself. It is like echoes from the zero point geometry.
 
Resonce patterns reflects the innermost qualities of time, space and matter.

Yes, resonance certainly is the key, and the intricate design of the resonance pattern needed to open up the HHO door remains to be found. And just like a perfect musical composition, the instruments has to be perfectly tuned for the key to work.
 

The HHO path is an unparalleled adventure in the alternative energy quest, when the key is found, energy will be abundant and the monetary system will dissolve and humanity take its first steps into true freedom.
 

Gwandau


Gwandau.


Thank you for the info I asked for. I am considering the resonance aspect towards the molecular length to achieve mechanical resonance as close to Q as possible. I want to try inducing the vibration by treating the molecule as an antenna, so to speak and hitting it with a resonating electrical pulse.


I do not want a resonating large scale electromagnetic field, as that could theoretically be quite dangerous to anyone close, as we are a large percentage water in our own construction. However direct pulse or induced electrostatic fields between two plates are open game.


Sonic vibration for a direct mechanical resonation may well be almost as dangerous as the electromagnetic fields due to undesired reflection.


I see several ways to possibly go about this.


However, when talking resonance, almost everyone ignores Tesla who pioneered the concept. Resonance means nothing unless energy is placed at a desired point for a reason.


Quarter wave or three quarter wave resonance places the available energy at one end or the other of an antenna. Half wave and full wave neutralize the effect, placing the energy at either in the middle of the antenna, or at two equidistant nodes on the antenna.


For our purposes, half wave and full wave resonance are undesirable as they are inherently stable and not destructive resonances due to a lack of energy imbalance within the system. We need an energy imbalance upon the molecule, so that it will naturally throw off the hydrogen atoms at the ends. I see the possibility of two frequencies needed to keep the ions from just grabbing another free hydrogen atom and reforming. One frequency aimed at the hydrogen molecule itself, and the other aimed at an OH ion.


This should destabilize both, and lead to prevention of spontaneous molecule reformation.


The question is has a systematic approach from the molecule up ever been tried?
Title: Re: Resonance and HHO
Post by: Gwandau on February 05, 2013, 10:08:06 PM
pauldude000,
 
I've heard about a Dr. Andrija Puharich, and Keely of course, but there seems to be no validated scientific papers on the works of these persons.
 
Dr. Puharich introduced an alternating current at a key frequency of 600 cycles per second. A barrel-shaped cavity contained the water in Puharich's system. 
The cavity resonated with the impulses in somewhat the same way the body of a violin resonates with the sound of one string, adding higher and lower harmonics to the principal tone. The additional harmonics, Puharich says, cause the proton in the hydrogen atom TO ROTATE, further forcing the hydrogen to split from the oxygen.
 
Keely, who was using accoustic sound, claimed that water can be progressively dissociated at 620, 630 and 12,000 cycles per second. These are on the molecular, atomic and etheric levels respectively.
 

Besides that, the only systematic approaches on the academic level I have heard of are concerned with either thermochemical or photocatalythic methodology,
besides some scientific off road experiments with ultra sound and radiowaves, the former still only causing mediocre increases in hydrogen production,
the latter ones spending just as much energy as oldfashioned electrolysis.
 
Of course there are a lot of guys doing wild experiments in their garages, but I honestly doubt we will hit the sweet spot by mere trial and error.
The parameters involved in bonding the water molecule are just a bit too complex to allow any one striking gold by merely fiddling with sequential PWM:s and the like.
 
Your approach seems to be quite careful and receptive, and the idea of subjecting the molecule to two frequencies sounds interesting.
A lot of interesting alternatives comes to my mind, like using one of the frequencies as a carrier frequency and so forth.
 
I'm going to walk this adventurous path myself as soon as my new workshop is installed this spring, and among the different areas of experimentation planned,
splitting water research is by far the most thrilling of them all for some reason, and I get vitalized just by thinking about it.
 

Gwandau
Title: Re: Resonance and HHO
Post by: pauldude000 on February 06, 2013, 03:15:04 AM
I am going to have to generate some skull sweat and write a program, when I have time, to determine frequencies based upon the info you provided. I will probably generate data for 1/4 wavelength frequencies etc..


Might do a full write-up with beat frequencies, 1/4, 1/2, 3/4, and full wavelengths and 1/3, 2/3 dis-harmonics in both centimeters and inches, meters and feet.


That part will at least be somewhat simple though time consuming.


Anyone interested in the data when I am done?


I could probably provide a copy of the program as well (visualbasic 2010 and .net) if interested. I think I still have a file upload site available. Cost is the best if I get it running correctly and polished... free.
Title: Re: Resonance and HHO
Post by: MasterPlaster on February 07, 2013, 05:33:22 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEBGI198CmQ

Title: Re: Resonance and HHO
Post by: pauldude000 on February 07, 2013, 12:31:42 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEBGI198CmQ (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wEBGI198CmQ)


Interesting video. Thank you very much. I had never heard of this man before.


One thing that many fail to realize is that chemical interactions can produce massive amounts of energy, without much actual energy being put in. I will give an example.


The US gov hires a contractor company to make plastic explosive. The company combines various chemicals in various proportions under various processes to make the material. It then gives this material to the Gov, and it uses said material for various destructive or constructive purposes. However, the grand total energy used to make the material is far less than the work done by the material when it is used. A tiny amount of this material does a huge amount of work.


The same is true for many such materials. It might be noted that it uses probably no more energy to make a pound of such material as a gallon of gasoline or motor oil.


I have heard the arguments concerning the amount of energy to purify the materials etc.... But I also note that the energy required to dig iron and copper, purify it, and form it into parts and assemble them into a generator is never accounted for in generating electricity either. :)


The dude in the video is actually proposing something very similar to my concept, but not quite.


It is a resonant based system, but he is basing it upon low frequency resonance which would make Tesla shake his head. There is a reason Tesla was after high frequency, and it was energy... power. Think literally.


P=IV right? Well:
P= dW/dt.... Joules/time in seconds.
W(Joules)=1/2(CV^2).... C is capacitance in farads and V is voltage.


Say you have a capacitor of .03 mfd at 30kv. The capacitor then holds 13.5 Joules of energy when charged. Not much energy right?


http://www.electronics2000.co.uk/calc/capacitor-charge-calculator.php (http://www.electronics2000.co.uk/calc/capacitor-charge-calculator.php)


I now discharge this energy into a resonant circuit at a frequency in hertz (cycles per second) and each pulse will have a power of P=dW/dt


http://www.rapidtables.com/calc/electric/Joule_to_Watt_Calculator.htm (http://www.rapidtables.com/calc/electric/Joule_to_Watt_Calculator.htm)


1 Hz = 13.5 watts
10 Hz = 135 watts
100 Hz = 1350 watts
1 KHz = 13,500 watts
10 Khz = 135,000 watts
100 Khz = 1,350,000 watts
1 Mhz = 13,500,000 watts
10 Mhz = 135,000,000 watts
100 Mhz = 1,350,000,000 watts


The difference of watt output over time changes greatly linearly with frequency. That is why Tesla desired higher and higher frequencies, as he could achieve greater and greater power levels. It is the same concept as used to make ultra powerful pulsed lasers. PULSES of mindblowing amounts of power.


With a tiny .01 mfd capacitor and an applied voltage of only 30kV in a circuit (close of resistance to zero as possible), a sudden discharge of that energy  in .000001 sec (one pulse at 100 Mhz) yields 1.35 Gigawatts of power........


At resonant frequency of 600Hz as used in the video, the same circuit would yield pulses of a lousy 225 watts. The harmonic resonant frequencies would share the power limitation as they are always lower power than the main input frequency. If he kicked the circuit up to just 6 Khz he would have decent pulses of 2.25 Kilowatts.


Think plastic explosive verses an equal amount of solar energy shining on the face of the earth in consideration of P=dW/dt. Somewhat of an exaggeration I know, but it puts things into perspective. The sunlight will warm the area, while the plastic will vaporize part of it.


That massive burst of energy can accomplish more than the same energy expended over a long period of time.



Title: Re: Resonance and HHO
Post by: pauldude000 on February 07, 2013, 12:59:39 PM
Another thing to think about, which I did not address above is this:

http://www.convertunits.com/from/coulomb/to/ampere-second (http://www.convertunits.com/from/coulomb/to/ampere-second)

All I need to provide the circuit is 30,000v with .00045 Coulombs (Amp-seconds) of charge to keep the circuit at a constant 13.5 Joules, irrespective of duty cycle.

IE 30kV at 450uA, or 13.5 watts/hour (P=IV). Doable with a car ignition coil.....  ;D :-X
Title: Re: Resonance and HHO
Post by: Gwandau on February 07, 2013, 09:15:07 PM
It is a resonant based system, but he is basing it upon low frequency resonance which would make Tesla shake his head. There is a reason Tesla was after high frequency, and it was energy... power. Think literally.


37 minutes into his speech Dr. Andrija Puharich is referring to a 22.3 GHz effect created within the coaxial container, so his system seems to incorporate high frequencies as well.
 
Gwandau
 
 
 
Title: Re: Resonance and HHO
Post by: MasterPlaster on February 07, 2013, 09:31:01 PM

Hello Paul. By starting this thread you re-ignited my interest in the subject. I have decided to start my research with a clean slate. All I can tell you is Puharich was a real scientist you can easily read about his life.

For the moment I am going to assume he was not doing a psyop on behalf of his handlers. But despite his willingness to divulge his discoveries, no detailed documents are available. In the video I believe he said he had to finalize some issues.

For the moment I am going to take his word.
A significant point he said was likening the output stage of the coil to a Tesla system.

Here is Puharich's patent:
http://www.google.com/patents/US4394230?dq=puharich&hl=en&sa=X&ei=EQ0UUeXYJMWXhQfMv4GQAw&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAA (http://www.google.com/patents/US4394230?dq=puharich&hl=en&sa=X&ei=EQ0UUeXYJMWXhQfMv4GQAw&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAA)

Notice that he is referencing Steven Horvath:
http://www.google.com/patents/US4107008?dq=puharich&ei=EQ0UUeXYJMWXhQfMv4GQAw (http://www.google.com/patents/US4107008?dq=puharich&ei=EQ0UUeXYJMWXhQfMv4GQAw)

Also he is referenced by Meyer:
http://www.google.com/patents/US4798661?dq=puharich&ei=EQ0UUeXYJMWXhQfMv4GQAw (http://www.google.com/patents/US4798661?dq=puharich&ei=EQ0UUeXYJMWXhQfMv4GQAw)

So, I think these may be legitimate sources to follow.
I am very skeptical of people suddenly jumping in with false knowledge. So the credential of anyone quoted must be verified.


Some additional notes:
http://www.angelfire.com/ak5/energy21/puharich.htm
Title: Re: Resonance and HHO
Post by: pauldude000 on February 08, 2013, 12:01:58 AM

37 minutes into his speech Dr. Andrija Puharich is referring to a 22.3 GHz effect created within the coaxial container, so his system seems to incorporate high frequencies as well.
 
Gwandau


In a harmonic system it should. I would imagine it was rich with harmonic frequencies extending across the entire scale. The problem is that the input frequency determines the power of the harmonics. The less input power in a given pulse frequency, the less power in each harmonic wave pulse. The closer to the main input frequency, the stronger the harmonic frequency. In reality the harmonics are much weaker than the input.


Consider it in this manner. At 600hz with the proposed 30kV and .03uF capacitor with the 13.5 joules available, 225 watts happen with each pulse. No harmonic will approach or surpass this 225 watt pulse. It limits the system. At 60Khz the same 13.5 Joules yields a whopping 22.5kW per pulse, and the harmonics may well be putting out more than the previous 225 watts. You see the issue?


As to the design resonance, the system should be designed to resonate at as high a frequency as possible, yet still remain on wavelength resonant for the goal frequency. The ideal situation is to aim for the goal frequency, and have the maximum of power right on target, but considering in our case a 1/4 wavelength in the picometers, it is simply not possible with what tech we have the ability to bring to the table.


Therefore we have to hit a harmonic as close as possible to the goal frequency, with as much energy per pulse as possible to deliver as much energy as possible to said goal frequency harmonic. That is the tough part which is often overlooked.
Title: Re: Resonance and HHO
Post by: pauldude000 on February 08, 2013, 12:22:37 AM
Hello Paul. By starting this thread you re-ignited my interest in the subject. I have decided to start my research with a clean slate. All I can tell you is Puharich was a real scientist you can easily read about his life.

For the moment I am going to assume he was not doing a psyop on behalf of his handlers. But despite his willingness to divulge his discoveries, no detailed documents are available. In the video I believe he said he had to finalize some issues.

For the moment I am going to take his word.
A significant point he said was likening the output stage of the coil to a Tesla system.

Here is Puharich's patent:
http://www.google.com/patents/US4394230?dq=puharich&hl=en&sa=X&ei=EQ0UUeXYJMWXhQfMv4GQAw&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAA (http://www.google.com/patents/US4394230?dq=puharich&hl=en&sa=X&ei=EQ0UUeXYJMWXhQfMv4GQAw&ved=0CDYQ6AEwAA)

Notice that he is referencing Steven Horvath:
http://www.google.com/patents/US4107008?dq=puharich&ei=EQ0UUeXYJMWXhQfMv4GQAw (http://www.google.com/patents/US4107008?dq=puharich&ei=EQ0UUeXYJMWXhQfMv4GQAw)

Also he is referenced by Meyer:
http://www.google.com/patents/US4798661?dq=puharich&ei=EQ0UUeXYJMWXhQfMv4GQAw (http://www.google.com/patents/US4798661?dq=puharich&ei=EQ0UUeXYJMWXhQfMv4GQAw)

So, I think these may be legitimate sources to follow.
I am very skeptical of people suddenly jumping in with false knowledge. So the credential of anyone quoted must be verified.


Some additional notes:
http://www.angelfire.com/ak5/energy21/puharich.htm (http://www.angelfire.com/ak5/energy21/puharich.htm)


That is why I don't claim to be anyone, as I am not.  ???


Thank you for the patent refs. I heard of Stan Meyer along time back. Thought it was interesting, but I was working on the Steven Marks TPU concept at the time. A lot can be learned from patents, though much can be hidden with them as well.


EDIT ADDED:


P.S. that is kewl. A friend of mine who does not want to be on the radar piqued my interest in this subject as well back when I was still working on the TPU. However, I was more into electromagnetic resonance and pure electrical effects than what I considered physical approaches, so never applied myself to the subject with any real thought or diligence. It has been only recently that the concept hit me, after realizing the TPU concept was inherently dangerous, that the two fields should overlap. A molecule, or an atom with electron holes in the shells, is just another conductor. Any conductor which is longer than it is wide can be considered as an antenna which will resonate at a specific frequency. Any antenna can be attenuated for 1/4 wave Q, no matter the length.


It breaks down to a mathematical logic problem at that point.


I cannot guarantee to anyone that my approach will work. I just know logically that it SHOULD work. The basic logical principle is not new, and is commonly used for various purposes.
Title: Re: Resonance and HHO
Post by: pauldude000 on February 08, 2013, 01:01:39 AM
@Gwandau


Puharich may well have been dumping more energy in than expected. Thanks to the patent link Master provided, I looked over the patent. What caught my eye was the waveforms he was using. He was using a 600hz AC CARRIER wave. That changes things quite a bit. This carrier was inter-modulated with a much higher frequency.


Wasteful of power if you ask me, but it would work. I say wasteful as the main carrier would still have the lion share of the pulse power. However a significant percentage of the power would also be present in the higher frequency pulses which would increase the harmonic power somewhat as well.


In a way, I conceptually like how he approached it.



Title: Re: Resonance and HHO
Post by: pauldude000 on February 08, 2013, 02:01:23 AM
@Master


I cannot make heads or tails from the Horvath patent. It appears to be a high refinement of a simpler initial device, many of which were abandoned. It appears to combine mechanical and electrical resonance, but that is just a guess. I have no clue, as it is far too complex a system to even hazard a realistic guess.


The Meyers patent tells me he was on to something. Something about the wave-forms smack of a high voltage resonance approach. The pulsed DC would yield high energies. I wonder though how he managed to reduce the inductive reluctance and capacitive reactance in the circuit at the higher frequencies to achieve such a waveform, as both add apparent resistance in the circuit forcing a longer time constant in the P=dW/dt equation.


He would have to neutralize by running the system at Q.


VERY interesting indeed, though I think the "laser" aspect was in fact a red herring. Maybe not, but I think so.


EDIT ADDED:


There is a way to test the idea of "lasers" (what he was actually showing in the patent was leds), or sound, or anything else for that matter. Stress the molecules using ordinary DC electrolysis. Apply the other source of energy, and look for any increase whatsoever in output. Even a minuscule increase validates the concept.
Title: Re: Resonance and HHO
Post by: MasterPlaster on February 08, 2013, 04:11:43 AM

@Paul
Here is an interesting summation by Lamar:

http://www.energeticforum.com/108949-post120.html

I am still reading:
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Article:Free_Electric_Energy_in_Theory_and_Practice

I know I have paper on the effect of laser on hydrogen production but I can't find it now.
A less relevant article which I am sure will come handy:

The effect of magnetic force on hydrogen production efficiency in water electrolysis
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0360319911023500

Sounds like you nearly got the TPU working. Every utility inherently has dangers associated with it.
Have you never had a paper cut?



Title: Re: Resonance and HHO
Post by: pauldude000 on February 08, 2013, 05:37:54 AM
@Paul
Here is an interesting summation by Lamar:

http://www.energeticforum.com/108949-post120.html (http://www.energeticforum.com/108949-post120.html)

I am still reading:
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Article:Free_Electric_Energy_in_Theory_and_Practice (http://peswiki.com/index.php/Article:Free_Electric_Energy_in_Theory_and_Practice)

I know I have paper on the effect of laser on hydrogen production but I can't find it now.
A less relevant article which I am sure will come handy:

The effect of magnetic force on hydrogen production efficiency in water electrolysis
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0360319911023500 (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0360319911023500)

Sounds like you nearly got the TPU working. Every utility inherently has dangers associated with it.
Have you never had a paper cut?


It would require a really mean piece of paper to kill a person. The TPU is an inherently unstable device, with undesirable and possibly lethal side effects. Here are two questions for you, just to mess with your head a little. How strong does a magnetic field have to be in gauss for a human being to physically feel the field? How much of a percentage of the human body is iron?


Playing with Nitro is not my idea of fun.


Lamar said Meyer was messing with 1/4 wave... That makes sense. Of all of them I bet his devices then produced the most volume/energy considering his waveform.
Title: Re: Resonance and HHO
Post by: pauldude000 on February 08, 2013, 06:02:37 AM
I know I have paper on the effect of laser on hydrogen production but I can't find it now.
A less relevant article which I am sure will come handy:

The effect of magnetic force on hydrogen production efficiency in water electrolysis
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0360319911023500 (http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0360319911023500)


Very interesting. I never even considered the magnetic properties of the electrodes themselves as playing a significant part. 304 stainless it is then.


The consideration of the Lorentz force upon things? I need to do more research there. Again, interesting.
Title: Re: Resonance and HHO
Post by: wings on February 08, 2013, 07:12:35 AM
MHD effect
Title: Re: Resonance and HHO
Post by: Gwandau on February 08, 2013, 10:54:13 PM
I am very skeptical of people suddenly jumping in with false knowledge. So the credential of anyone quoted must be verified.

@MasterPlaster,
 
be kind to clarify, has there been anyone in this thread "jumping in with false knowledge"?
 
Cheers,
 
Gwandau
Title: Re: Resonance and HHO
Post by: MasterPlaster on February 09, 2013, 12:32:39 AM
@Gwandau, No not yet on this thread but as soon as something positive transpires and the thread becomes popular then you get the know it alls. It is because they read some misinformation somewhere and then states it as a fact elsewhere.


It is fine to put an idea forward as long as the contributer introduces his idea as a theory.
Imagine how many man years has been expended by people trying to replicate Meyer and no one seems to have been successful.
Even some of the giants claiming to have had success show themselves from time to time have never demonstrate anything solid.

This is not to put a negative spin on things. By now someone should have come close to a Puharich or a Meyer system but to my knowledge no one has.






Title: Re: Resonance and HHO
Post by: MasterPlaster on February 09, 2013, 12:38:58 AM
@Paul

With respect to your question, This scene comes to mind: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zbTyTyizz1s !

However, I don't this there is a static magnetic field large enough to cause a hazard to anyone.

The dangers of EM waves are well known but I have a theory that just as there are dangerous EM waves,
there are also beneficial ones. (something along Rifes ideas).

Title: Re: Resonance and HHO
Post by: MasterPlaster on February 09, 2013, 12:42:42 AM

Very interesting. I never even considered the magnetic properties of the electrodes themselves as playing a significant part. 304 stainless it is then.


The consideration of the Lorentz force upon things? I need to do more research there. Again, interesting.

The stainless steel tubes that Meyer employed ( 304, but please check) is non magnetic.
Title: Re: Resonance and HHO
Post by: pauldude000 on February 09, 2013, 01:40:19 AM
The stainless steel tubes that Meyer employed ( 304, but please check) is non magnetic.


Keep this up and I will consider you my personal encyclopedia! You are proving yourself to be a wealth of good information.
Title: Re: Resonance and HHO
Post by: Gwandau on February 09, 2013, 03:12:07 AM
@MasterPlaster,
 
thanks for clarifying, english is not my native language and this sometimes makes me miss nuances expressed within the context of the sentence.
I totally agree with you, this is a topic of such novel approach that every step taken has to be thoroughly evaluated.
 
Also,  however intriguing the tales of Stan Meyer and Puharich, I would personally actually prefer to start from scratch in order to avoid being mislead. Certain questions always come to me when I watch a video like that of Puharich. If he really had reached the point of fully being able to fission water at a COP= 1.2 as he claims, why doesn't he demonstrate his apparatus in action? I myself would have had a propane engine running right there on the table, HHO-fueled through the water splitter by a transparent water tank from which I repeatedly would drink a glass of water during my speech.
 
No, I am not convinced that he had reached all the way to this goal. Still I believe he possessed critical and unparallelled knowledge about the vulnerability dynamics of the water molecule bonds and possibly had achieved partial success to a degree convincing enough to motivate him going public.
 

@pauldude000, MastePlaster and all interested:
 
As a product developer in the surface coating industry since many years I am well aware of the magnitude of energy easily spent on wrong leads and have learned to regard the quality of rigorous method as absolutely essential when approaching uncharted areas.
 
Since we are approaching the water fission quest with the aim of using novel low energy keys instead of the old fashioned brute energy wasting force applied through ortodox electrolysis and the like, we have first of all to study and learn everything there is known today about the water molecule, from its three dimensional behaviour in its normal liquid state, to its appearance and behaviour in any of its extremes.
 
Did you know that water has several solid phases far above the freezing point when subjected to certain pressures?
 
quote: "Interestingly, at high pressures (~ 2.3 GPa), liquid water can be made to freeze at over 100 °C "   ( http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/ice_vii.html (http://www.lsbu.ac.uk/water/ice_vii.html) )

What I mean is, instead of running ahead in the initial inspiration and start doing experiments and most likely get lost in the massive magnitude of parameters sooner or later making us give up like the rest of the guys who have tried this before us, we should approach the structuration of implementation slowly like a cat moving towards its prey. I know it is extremely fun to start doing experiments, but I am afraid any premature actions just is a waste of energy making us into just another failure in the long row of failures evident before us.

 
Step one is to define the main parameters to be studied and explored.  What are the main parameters to take into consideration and study?

Below I have some suggestions, but they are far from complete, so I welcome anyone interested in helping to add anything you think is important.
 

Main Parameters:
 
1. The three dimensional dynamics of water molecule bonds.  (As far as I am concerned, this is absolutely essential to understand in depht.)
 
2. The applied set of frequencies and their geometry based upon the above dynamics,  and the possible use of carrier waves.
 
3. Design of the reaction chamber and frequncy transmitter.
 
 
Gwandau
 
Title: Re: Resonance and HHO
Post by: pauldude000 on February 09, 2013, 06:34:36 AM
As a product developer in the surface coating industry since many years I am well aware of the magnitude of energy easily spent on wrong leads and have learned to regard the quality of rigorous method as absolutely essential when approaching uncharted areas.
 
Since we are approaching the water fission quest with the aim of using novel low energy keys instead of the old fashioned brute energy wasting force applied through ortodox electrolysis and the like, we have first of all to study and learn everything there is known today about the water molecule, from its three dimensional behaviour in its normal liquid state, to its appearance and behaviour in any of its extremes.


.......

What I mean is, instead of running ahead in the initial inspiration and start doing experiments and most likely get lost in the massive magnitude of parameters sooner or later making us give up like the rest of the guys who have tried this before us, we should approach the structuration of implementation slowly like a cat moving towards its prey. I know it is extremely fun to start doing experiments, but I am afraid any premature actions just is a waste of energy making us into just another failure in the long row of failures evident before us.

 
Step one is to define the main parameters to be studied and explored.  What are the main parameters to take into consideration and study?

Below I have some suggestions, but they are far from complete, so I welcome anyone interested in helping to add anything you think is important.
 

Main Parameters:
 
1. The three dimensional dynamics of water molecule bonds.  (As far as I am concerned, this is absolutely essential to understand in depht.)
 
2. The applied set of frequencies and their geometry based upon the above dynamics,  and the possible use of carrier waves.
 
3. Design of the reaction chamber and frequncy transmitter.
 
 
Gwandau


Gwandau, you make some very good points. The concept is a simple one. Either we play to win, or we play to fail. Accidentally succeeding is just that, namely an accident, and does not work most of the time. Now, lets address your parameters you put forth.


Quote
1. The three dimensional dynamics of water molecule bonds.


Absolutely. Everything that is known about the bonds could prove invaluable information. I would actually expand the parameter to:


"What is known about the water molecule and it's bonds which applies to electricity or resonance in general, including but not limited to mechanical, electrical, and electromagnetic."


Any information about 'interesting' events noted during studies or experiments are often overlooked and relegated to 'interesting but irrelevant'. All too often these are huge clues. The research should have its focus placed upon resonance, bond strength, bond shape, reaction of bonds to outside stimuli, etc..


However, we can go so far afield in that the project gets buried in research as well, so we need to limit the focus to our approach.
 
Quote
2. The applied set of frequencies and their geometry based upon the above dynamics,  and the possible use of carrier waves.

The frequencies are actually going to be the easy part. Don't sound shocked as this is realistically no different than designing an antenna. Delivery system, efficiency, device design, etc., are going to be the hard parts. I want to keep the design as K.I.S.S. as possible for repeat-ability purposes. (Keep It Simple Stupid) Using K.I.S.S. also tends to keep old man Murphy as far away as possible.

Quote
3. Design of the reaction chamber and frequncy transmitter.


This is where we are going to have no choice but experiment. For instance, a resonance chamber may enhance resonance at various frequencies, but kill a crucial one. We cannot ASSUME that any one concept or approach is going to be inherently better than another without actual evidence or at least logical reason.


Until we know the frequencies, the rest has to necessarily be on hold. There should be a different set of frequencies also depending upon the necessary wavelength parameter we find as effectual. For instance, if 1/4 wave is actually (my current guess) the most destructive towards the bonds, then that is the frequency set we need. However, we may find that 1/2, 1, 1/3 or even 2/3 wavelength resonance is necessary, and each will have it's own set of frequencies. I am going to do a workup of ALL these type of resonance, so that we have a list of frequencies available to cover all possible eventualities.


As the molecule has a "V" shape, we may find that we have to treat it as one half turn of a coil.... which changes the wavelength once again. We may have to hit the molecule with a frequency to impart energy and strain the bonds, and another to break the weakened bonds. We may just have to hit it with a sharp pulse at the resonant frequency.


The methodical well thought out approach will definitely provide the largest chance of success. Documentation is also going to be the key. Therefore I add to your list of parameters:


4. Document everything in a lab journal. "Interesting observations", successes, and failures all matter.


Three things make for an "interesting observation". Nothing happens where something should happen. Something happens where nothing should happen. Something totally unexpected happens.







Title: Re: Resonance and HHO
Post by: pauldude000 on February 09, 2013, 07:53:55 AM
This may be old hat to everyone, but I will post it just in case:


275 picometers in length for the extended water molecule. That means that 275 picometers is the resonant wavelength right?


WRONG!


275 picometers is the length of the ANTENNA. There are THREE main resonant frequencies for any antenna.


If we treat it as a 1/4 wave dipole, then the resonant wavelength is  1100 picometers
If we treat it as a 1/2 wave antenna then the resonant wavelength is 550 picometers
If we treat it as a FULL wave antenna then the resonant wavelength is actually 275 picometers


Using 1/2 resonance places all of the energy at the center of the antenna. Using 1/4 places all of the energy at one end. Using full wave places the energy into two nodes 1/4 of the distance from either end. 


To figure third wave resonance is more complicated. 1/3 and 2/3 resonance are inherently destructive, since they are oh-so close to resonant wavelength and just off Q, but not actually resonant with the antenna. 


Here is our problem. Frequency wise there is NO way to approach it directly. Why?


f = c/h (lambda)


where:


f = frequency in Hz
c = speed of light
h = wavelength


The frequency is  1.0902e+9 GIGAhertz (1,090,200,000 GHz)!!!


I do not know about you, but I know of no resonator on earth capable of such a high frequency as 1 billion Gigahertz, or 1.0902 Exahertz. We have to treat it as either a harmonic or as a subharmonic.


We are talking orders of magnitude higher frequency than the shortest wavelength of visible light, in the Exahertz range. In other words 1.0902 X 10^18 Hz which just so happens to be dead center of the X-ray band. Thankfully this is FULL wavelength.


At 1/4 wavelength or 1100pM: 2.7254e+8 Ghz : 2.7254 X 10^17 Hz : 1/4 the way into the X-ray band. I was hoping for ultraviolet, but no go.


Consider buying some lead... (I am not joking. Lead sheet at least 1/8" thick.)


If I manage this sub-harmonic, the device WILL put off some X-rays. Hopefully not too many, which I doubt anyway as the power will only be in the Micro-watts or less so far off of main input frequency. Better safe than sorry.


We are going to have no choice but aim for the high kilohertz range for individual pulse power, but remain outside the magahertz range as Xl and Xc are going to prevent the sudden discharges needed. We have to create one HUGE chain of harmonics, which will create their own sub-harmonics, etc... Whole frequency, as it will still be a beast to tune even so. It will have to be PRECISELY on frequency, otherwise the sub-harmonics will not even be close.


Oh boy. What am I getting myself into?


WOW. Started this post off great, then ended thinking to myself.







Title: Re: Resonance and HHO
Post by: murmel on February 09, 2013, 08:38:15 AM
http://www.globalkast.com/
Title: Re: Resonance and HHO
Post by: pauldude000 on February 09, 2013, 09:39:00 AM
The is the resonant principle that Tesla used. It was based upon wave energy at a given point. When I talk about resonance, it is based upon this model. When a quarter wavelength antenna is properly designed to work at Q, the signal rebounds four times in the coil. The energy at one end will first go maximum positive, then to zero, then to maximum negative, then back to zero.


You will notice if you trace the antenna with your finger that it does the reverse at the other end of the antenna. This applies asymmetrical energy charge to the antenna. You should also easily recognize the energy problems with the other antennas. A symmetrical charge model is stable. An asymmetrical charge model is unstable and provides unbalanced localized energy which can be harvested or used, or which will build until something breaks down. In the case of a Tesla coil, the air surrounding the terminal.


Most Tesla coil builders actually design the coil bass akwards. They wind a coil to find out what frequency they want (Always thinking full wave and talking 1/4 or 1/2) based upon the inductance of the coil they just built. They then choose a capacitor, and try to tune the circuit, and wonder why it doesn't produce much energy.


In most cases I have seen, the coil length is designed for a kilohertz use, and it was formed into a megahertz resonator. Tesla figured the length of wire first as a 1/4 wavelength, then wound it on a form to achieve a certain inductance and matched the capacitor/inductance for the design frequency.


We need to think resonance first, then design to match.

Title: Re: Resonance and HHO
Post by: pauldude000 on February 10, 2013, 03:24:16 AM
http://www.globalkast.com/ (http://www.globalkast.com/)


Would be interesting except all of the video links are non-functional. 404 error.
Title: Re: Resonance and HHO
Post by: pauldude000 on February 10, 2013, 08:30:05 AM
I enter the room, noticing dull brown wooden backed chairs surrounding a long shiny oak conference table.


Carefully, I reach into my pocket and withdraw a small shiny cylindrical pointed object. Extending my hand, I open my fingers and release the piece of metal. In slow motion it rotates three times, glinting in the bright lighting. It strikes the hard gray tiled floor.....


TING, Ting, ting, tinkle tinkle....


"Wow! You can hear a pin drop!"


 8)
Title: Re: Resonance and HHO
Post by: Gwandau on February 11, 2013, 02:06:55 AM
pauldude000,
 
 
you certainly know how to express your feelings with great humour and with an almost psychedelik touch. I could hear that pin hit the floor...  ;D ;D
 
 
(Sorry for the delay, I've been busy upgrading my pc with the left overs from my sons new computer build, but now I am back high on hardware.)
 
Great input pauldude000, this thread is really inspiring, a lot of new information to assimilate, and thanks especially for elucidating me on the ANTENNA, absolutely crucial knowledge in the search for the key.
 
 
Yes, and Documentation for sure! I just wonder what would be the best way to store the documentation. It has to be easily accessible and updated.
Maybe we should start off with our own local databases and just gather interesting observations posted here, and later on when things may get more serious, we may think of making it accessible through a cloud service or the like.
 
 
Quote
  We may have to hit the molecule with a frequency to impart energy and strain the bonds, and another to break the weakened bonds.


Yes, I too believe the key consists of several different phases to be executed in order to put the unlocking mechanism into effect.
 
 
The key may be a delicate set of parameters elegantly and economically canceling out or decreasing the electric dipolarity of the water molecule. As I understand, the water molecule displays a notable differential in the distribution of electron density, where the average electron density around the oxygen atom is about 10x that around the hydrogen atoms.
 
 
So if we could stress the V-shaped molecule to change its angle, not only would the molecular antenna alter its wavelength properties, it would as well have altered the very dipole geometry and its strength. And it is here the conventional electrolysis may play an important part. I don't like the big differential in the electron cloud. We have to do something about those valence electrons.
 
 
Whatever direction this project will take, I am sure we will have a lot of fun. And I have a feeling we will get company on this thread when we strike our first anomaly observation.
 
I own some quite odd equipment used in the coating industry that generates extremes of static electricity at an ampere level that hopefully won't kill you, and we are talking about many hundred of thousands of volts here. I have been wondering if those generators could be of any use here. I am quite ignorant in the electronics field but something tells me static electricity could be of interest when it comes to subjecting water to different extremes. What do you think?
 
 
Gwandau
Title: Re: Resonance and HHO
Post by: pauldude000 on February 11, 2013, 04:01:36 AM
Quote
I own some quite odd equipment used in the coating industry that generates extremes of static electricity at an ampere level that hopefully won't kill you, and we are talking about many hundred of thousands of volts here. I have been wondering if those generators could be of any use here. I am quite ignorant in the electronics field but something tells me static electricity could be of interest when it comes to subjecting water to different extremes. What do you think?


It might well. A static electrical field should be able to raise the energy levels of any particular atom within the mix. You may not need the high power equipment, but it may well be useful for "proof of concept" principles. I have made and designed Tesla coils, Oudin coils, D'Arsonval high frequency step down autoformers, VanDeGraaff Static generators, among numerous other high voltage devices.


However for purposes of practicality concerning both replication, duplication, and also end user application, the actual finished device needs to utilize common components and be as compact as practically possible. For HV DC, we can use television flyback transformers or diode capacitor voltage multiplier circuits if necessary for the finished device.


Your cool tools will be a useful addition though, as you can test HV DC vs bond effects, etc., and perform experiments quickly and easily. That will be both nice and useful.


This thread has turned out more interesting than anticipated. Initially I was just curious as to whether it might be a viable approach, and whether or not it had been tried already. I had not intended to start a massive project, with the potential of having a group work on the concept. The concept of a group is fine with me, but it shocks me in a way.


Is this concept of an approach really that novel? (Initially I had assumed it probably 'old hat', and would be steered to some other's previous research.)




EDIT ADDED:


For documentation I still find that nothing really competes with the lab notebook and pencil. They allow for spontaneous data notation during the event, not relying on fallible memory after the event, and can be scanned and uploaded, or typed out later, easily.


Whatever a person is comfortable with is good, but a lowly notebook is better.  ;D


For those wanting to do Computer Graphics, I recommend Chasys Draw IES ([size=78%]http://bit.ly/11Y1kpV (http://bit.ly/11Y1kpV)[/size][size=78%]) [/size]as it has two things going for it.


1. Is is almost as powerful as photoshop, and can use photoshop and gimp plugins.
2. Just as important... IT IS FREE. (I am a cheapskate.)







Title: Re: Resonance and HHO
Post by: pauldude000 on February 11, 2013, 04:49:51 AM
For those interested in what a project finding the harmonics of a molecule of water is in a usable format.....


Harmonics are based upon wavelength, and not upon 1/4 or 1/2 wave etc.


A 4th order harmonic is the base frequency multiplied by 5. For instance, using a 60Hz base frequency.


Base (1 wavelength) = 60Hz
1st order (2 wavelengths) = 120Hz
2nd order (3 wavelengths) = 180Hz
3rd = 240Hz
4th = 300Hz


Therefore, we need to find either the harmonic which ends at 1018 Hz, and find the frequency which comes closest to a true 1/4 wavelength resonance. Not easy. I am going to write a program which will figure this automatically for my inadequate old brain.


Edit Added:


Should have reiterated the target frequency for 1/4 wavelength at 1100 picometers.


1100 picometers = 0.0011 micrometers
0.0011 micrometers = 272538598.18181825 Ghz (OOOOUUUUCH!)

http://www.unitconversion.org/length/picometers-to-micrometers-conversion.html (http://www.unitconversion.org/length/picometers-to-micrometers-conversion.html)
http://www.photonics.byu.edu/fwnomograph.phtml (http://www.photonics.byu.edu/fwnomograph.phtml)

In other words... 272538598181818250 Hz, or 2.725xxxxxxx X1017 Hz.  And we have to be PRECISE to be on 1/4 wave!


Every one of those digits is significant. Round anything off, and it throws off the resonance by orders of magnitude.
Title: Re: Resonance and HHO
Post by: pauldude000 on February 12, 2013, 12:56:38 PM
Hmmm...


Did that last post scare people or what?


It is not as bad as it looks. We actually lucked out. It is a huge string of numbers, but is easily divisible, as the last two digits are what matters. xxxxxxxxx50 means that the frequency is evenly divisible by 1,2,5,10,50


If I remember correctly, the resonant multiple which places the amplitude peak at maximum at 1/4 is in multiples of five wavelengths anyway. I will have to check to be sure, but I think so, just speaking off hand.


That would make the whole process a done deal.
Title: Re: Resonance and HHO
Post by: Gwandau on February 13, 2013, 02:51:19 AM
Not scared, just keeping a respectful distance until assimilated enough harmonic theory to be able to ask meaningful questions in regard to HHO resonance.

How do you plan to implement the frequency experiments? Treating the water as an electrolyte and subjecting it to alternate current or pulsed DC, or both? Or are you thinking underwater soundwave generation?  I myself am going for sound generation. Maybe my old analogue synthesizer will be of use, it's an old Moog replica made by Roland (Roland System 100) with two independent oscillators and a diversity of interconnctive possibilities between all kinds of wave modulator and filters, you know, one of these old fun machines with a tendency to get absolutely covered with cables at the end of the day.
 

A lot of alternatives comes to my mind, most of them probably easily discardable due to my ignorance in the field, such as how about creating resonating or interfering patterns between two HF PWM:s with one of their poles at two different ends of a nonconductive cylinder of a diamter and length decided by a suitable harmonic and their other poles being situated around the middle part of the cylinder? The cylinder shape seems to be considered an interesting shape when it comes to harmonics. And so on and so forth, ideas surface now like bubbles in champagne, and probably just as shallow. ;D

So don't take my suggestions too seriously, I'm just freewheeling deep into the Swedish winter night.

Cheers,
 
Gwandau
Title: Re: Resonance and HHO
Post by: SeaMonkey on February 13, 2013, 03:59:18 AM
Quote
Harmonics are based upon wavelength, and not upon 1/4 or 1/2 wave etc.


A 4th order harmonic is the base frequency multiplied by 5. For instance, using a 60Hz base frequency.


Base (1 wavelength) = 60Hz
1st order (2 wavelengths) = 120Hz
2nd order (3 wavelengths) = 180Hz
3rd = 240Hz
4th = 300Hz

Interesting discussion.

Harmonics are actually multiples of a fundamental
frequency.  The fourth harmonic (fourth multiple) of
60 Hz would be 240 Hz; while the Fourth Overtone of
60 Hz would be 300 Hz.

The First Overtone is equivalent to the Second Harmonic.
Title: Re: Resonance and HHO
Post by: SeaMonkey on February 13, 2013, 04:19:20 AM
Quote
If I remember correctly, the resonant multiple which places the amplitude peak at maximum at 1/4 is in multiples of five wavelengths anyway. I will have to check to be sure, but I think so, just speaking off hand.

For Quarter Wave resonance the length of the
Antenna would be 1/4 the length of the resonant
frequency wavelength; or saying it another way,
the length of the antenna would be the length
of the 4th Harmonic.

This will result in a standing wave which is the
result of the forward and reflected waves which
are traveling in opposite directions.  The end of
the antenna which is fed will represent the Low
Impedance point and the opposite end will represent
the High Impedance point.  The Low impedance
point corresponds to minimum voltage and maximum
current while the High Impedance end corresponds
to Maximum Voltage and Minimum Current.  This is
known as the Quarter Wave Transform[ation.]
 (http://www.microwaves101.com/Encyclopedia/quarterwave.cfm)
The Characteristic Impedance (or Radiation Resistance)
of a Quarter Wave antenna is 50 Ohms.  Since the antenna
is at resonance its input point will appear to be purely resistive
to the source of applied power.
Title: Re: Resonance and HHO
Post by: pauldude000 on February 13, 2013, 04:34:51 AM
It is indeed multiples of five. Below is a demonstration picture I made to show this. Using multiples of five is the ONLY ratio which reinforces the wave at all points. When the longer wave is at 0, maximum, or minimum, the harmonic matches. This is not true of 2,10,or 50, but is true of 5, 25, 125 (IE TIMES or DIVIDED by 5)



Title: Re: Resonance and HHO
Post by: pauldude000 on February 13, 2013, 04:38:49 AM
Interesting discussion.

Harmonics are actually multiples of a fundamental
frequency.  The fourth harmonic (fourth multiple) of
60 Hz would be 240 Hz; while the Fourth Overtone of
60 Hz would be 300 Hz.

The First Overtone is equivalent to the Second Harmonic.


True, SeaMonkey. However most resonances actually impede or cancel out higher and lower resonance frequencies due to being "out of step" so to speak with the harmonic. Tesla was after reinforcing resonance, where the signals did not attempt to cancel each other out.


It took me forever to understand what he was ultimately getting at. I think he assumed everyone thought that way.
Title: Re: Resonance and HHO
Post by: SeaMonkey on February 13, 2013, 04:43:03 AM
Yes, odd harmonics will add algebraically
to produce a unique waveshape.

Even harmonics when added algebraically
will produce another unique waveshape.
Title: Re: Resonance and HHO
Post by: SeaMonkey on February 13, 2013, 05:06:26 AM
Quote
... most resonances actually impede or cancel out higher and lower resonance frequencies due to being "out of step" so to speak with the harmonic. Tesla was after reinforcing resonance, where the signals did not attempt to cancel each other out.

Algebraic summation occurs throughout the length of
the Standing Wave of resonance which entails both
reinforcement (in phase) and cancellation (out of phase)
of varying degrees dependent upon position within the
Quarter Wave (or other) Standing Wave pattern.

You'll have to expand on what your meaning is.
Title: Re: Resonance and HHO
Post by: pauldude000 on February 13, 2013, 05:08:56 AM
Not scared, just keeping a respectful distance until assimilated enough harmonic theory to be able to ask meaningful questions in regard to HHO resonance.

How do you plan to implement the frequency experiments? Treating the water as an electrolyte and subjecting it to alternate current or pulsed DC, or both? Or are you thinking underwater soundwave generation?  I myself am going for sound generation. Maybe my old analogue synthesizer will be of use, it's an old Moog replica made by Roland (Roland System 100) with two independent oscillators and a diversity of interconnctive possibilities between all kinds of wave modulator and filters, you know, one of these old fun machines with a tendency to get absolutely covered with cables at the end of the day.
 

A lot of alternatives comes to my mind, most of them probably easily discardable due to my ignorance in the field, such as how about creating resonating or interfering patterns between two HF PWM:s with one of their poles at two different ends of a nonconductive cylinder of a diamter and length decided by a suitable harmonic and their other poles being situated around the middle part of the cylinder? The cylinder shape seems to be considered an interesting shape when it comes to harmonics. And so on and so forth, ideas surface now like bubbles in champagne, and probably just as shallow. ;D

So don't take my suggestions too seriously, I'm just freewheeling deep into the Swedish winter night.

Cheers,
 
Gwandau
Title: Re: Resonance and HHO
Post by: pauldude000 on February 13, 2013, 07:58:38 AM
Algebraic summation occurs throughout the length of
the Standing Wave of resonance which entails both
reinforcement (in phase) and cancellation (out of phase)
of varying degrees dependent upon position within the
Quarter Wave (or other) Standing Wave pattern.

You'll have to expand on what your meaning is.


Precisely.


We want to input a harmonic frequency which by nature strengthens the other harmonics. I originally thought Tesla used the classic model for resonance. However, many of his statements were confusing at best concerning resonance. I thought it was just me. It wasn't until I realized he had is own quasi-model of resonance that he based his reasoning upon that everything started to make sense.


The strongest harmonics are going to be those which reinforce the parent frequency, which itself is merely the center harmonic in the system. Other harmonics will interplay, but will cancel themselves out quickly. Strong harmonics far away on the scale from the original input frequency will be those naturally reinforcing. If you want a specific harmonic to be present very far from the original frequency, the input must by nature be reinforcing.


The main POWER in the input signal is at either maximum or at minimum. We don't want the amperage leading or lagging the emf, so the system must be at Q. We need the harmonics to span an extreme range and get as close as possible to the desired frequency, but stay reinforcing. We need each reversal of energy to impart the maximum amount of energy possible into the system.


You have to think backwards in comparison to what you are used to with the classic model. In the classic model all harmonics are resonant, simply because they resonate. In Tesla's unique universe, harmonics are at pure resonance when they reinforce all other harmonics in the system. In a different approach, to Tesla there was no real practical difference between one type of wave and another. A sound wave or pressure wave was conceptually equal to an electromagnetic wave in reaction and interaction.


Harmonic implies harmony, not dissonance. To a quarter wave resonant system, any harmonic which does not naturally reinforce is dissonance in the system. What we would call today undesirable static or white noise.


EDIT ADDED:


I just proofread this, and I realized I left something important out.


Notice those three waves in the picture I uploaded. There is something of note in them, which the other 'harmonics' (dissonants) do not do, which is match the original signal anywhere but at the beginning of the main wave, and the end. The only reason they are resonant at all is they share two zero emf nodes with the parent wave. As you notice in the picture, a true harmonic shares four, one every 90 degrees. 0 , maximum , 0 ,  minimum and then the cycle starts over.
Title: Re: Resonance and HHO
Post by: pauldude000 on February 13, 2013, 08:43:40 AM
How do you plan to implement the frequency experiments? Treating the water as an electrolyte and subjecting it to alternate current or pulsed DC, or both? Or are you thinking underwater soundwave generation?  I myself am going for sound generation. Maybe my old analogue synthesizer will be of use, it's an old Moog replica made by Roland (Roland System 100) with two independent oscillators and a diversity of interconnctive possibilities between all kinds of wave modulator and filters, you know, one of these old fun machines with a tendency to get absolutely covered with cables at the end of the day.


The posting system erased the text to my driver circuit pictures. The two circuits each have their respective duties. The one on the left allows the 555 to go under 50% duty cycle (both under and over). The circuit on the right is a full range circuit as to frequency. Combine the two, and you have a full range pulse circuit of full range duty cycle, which will drive a standard hf Mosfet.


I intend to make the HHO tank just a conductor in a resonant Tesla primary driver style tank circuit (coil, cap, HHO Tank, gap). I shall use the 555 circuit to drive a car ignition coil (immersed oil can type) to power the circuit. The HHO tank will probably start off as two SS plates at a distance of a resonant harmonic immersed in a tank of either tap or dirty water. The max for input energy on my circuit should be around 70W, since I will be pulsing a Mosfet to drive the coil. (Coil itself is rated at 12v at 5-7A primary drive current)


The reason for the secondary resonant system is that I will be imparting short duration pulse-trains of immense power through the HHO tank at the proper frequency, while using diddly squat in the driving circuit. Yes, I will shield the coil with a Faraday cage... :)


I might well try other HHO tank styles, such as a tube within a tube, or a rod in a tube, or a dry cell etc., whether the experiment works or not.


If the soft hand frequency approach doesn't work, I can always build a massive, Faraday style, multi-disc homopolar generator... (ouch) Give it a couple thousand (or more) low voltage DC Amps and see what it has to say then... Bwaaaahaaaha! (My Dad used to say "If it doesn't work the first time, get a bigger hammer.")


You could try the sound concept. To me a wave is a wave. It might work with the proper frequency, or combination.
Title: Re: Resonance and HHO
Post by: SolarLab on February 13, 2013, 08:09:21 PM

A quick 2 cents worth;


Mr. Meyer published an 'interesting' sales document entitled "Stanley Meyer - WFC Dealership Manual." It used to be on Woodside's site [globalkast.com] but you might have to search a bit to find it. Based, in part, on this document; briefly, here's one approach that might be worth looking at:


 - H2O resonance in the water fuel cell cavity relates to molecule/protron/electron collisions driven by the HV positive and HV negative plate stimulation; possibly the "space" part of the mark/space waveform; Meyer predicts this produces a major gas production boost; this is driven by the mechanical cell configuration [plate spacing, etc.];


 - Rapid electrical pulses, forming the "mark" part of the waveform, assist in inhibiting current flow [the inductors and cell (Cap) form an RLC tank]; this is driven by the electronic (RF) behavior of the circuit;


 - Maintaining the pulse frequency such that this "tank circuit" is in electrical resonance will produce {theoretical} infinite high Voltage across the cell (capacitor);


 - Meyer also alludes to further stimulation methods and techniques; as well as Skin Effect and Standing Waves, amongst other things; note where he taps the coaxial tubes for electrical connection, for example;


One nice feature of experimenting with Meyer's Water Fuel Cell is you can rapidly achieve some moderate success quite easily- especially when employing a simple 2 plate adjustable test configuration driven by a simple power amplified signal generator or a bifilar Tesla coil driven by an induction cooktop!


After you get the "feel of it" here's a link to a Test Set-up that might be useful:
 
"HYDROXY (HHO) WaterFuelCell EVALUATION TEST SETUP"


http://contest.techbriefs.com/machinery-and-equipment-2011/1887 (http://contest.techbriefs.com/machinery-and-equipment-2011/1887)


Hey, this stuff is very do-able "but the time is just not quite ripe" yet... If your an RF/uWave designer you've already got a "leg up!"


Good Luck and Be Careful 
Title: Re: Resonance and HHO
Post by: Gwandau on February 14, 2013, 04:16:24 AM
The reason for the secondary resonant system is that I will be imparting short duration pulse-trains of immense power through the HHO tank at the proper frequency, while using diddly squat in the driving circuit. Yes, I will shield the coil with a Faraday cage...

I find your idea very intriguing and sophisticated and I'm going to have your concept in mind when staging my own experiments later this spring. I agree to that "a wave is a wave", following same rules in regard to harmonics and resonance, but isn't there possibly a difference in the very geometry of the molecular compression effects when subjecting the dipolaric water molecules to sound respective electromagnetic waves?
 
I am presently immersing myself in the study of all physicochemical data available about water, including the diversity of crystal structures in liquid water when exposed to different physical, chemical and electromagnetic environments. The crystal diffences of water in room temperature are not directly visible, but are easily studied in a cold room with a low magnification polarized microscope by letting a drop of the water crystallize upon a plate of glass in minus 5 Degrees Celius. This ability to act as a "memory" indicates that water conceals a lot of unknown properties, not directly observable.
 

I belive there is a code in the crystal structure of water that corresponds with the molecular geometry, so as far as I am concerned, one may have to include the crystal properties as an important parameter for optimal settings. At least this is what I intend to find out during march-april, in good time before before my new workshop springs into life, since after that I will have trouble keeping myself from doing experiments. ;D
 

This is a bit off-topic, but I have always wondered how Tesla and Schuman arrived to the below figures.
 

Tesla:
Electromagnetic frequency spectra of earth:
7.8 Hz @ 0.12mW/Hz
14.1 Hz @ 0.10mW/Hz
20.0 Hz @ 0.06mW/Hz
25.0 Hz @ 0.05mW/Hz
 
Schumann Resonance Data:
Electromagnetic frequencies:
7.83 Hz First Harmonic
14.1 Hz Second Harmonic
20.3 Hz Third Harmonic
26.4 Hz Fourth Harmonic
32.4 Hz Fifth Harmonic
 

Gwandau
Title: Re: Resonance and HHO
Post by: SeaMonkey on February 14, 2013, 06:03:22 AM
Quote from: pauldude
We want to input a harmonic frequency which by nature strengthens the other harmonics. I originally thought Tesla used the classic model for resonance. However, many of his statements were confusing at best concerning resonance. I thought it was just me. It wasn't until I realized he had is own quasi-model of resonance that he based his reasoning upon that everything started to make sense.

Producing a signal which is rich in phase locked harmonics
is quite easy.  One of the most useful in this respect is the
pulse waveform;  a short pulse with fast rise and fall times.
For example, a 1.0 KHz pulse waveshape with sharp edges
can produce harmonics into the hundreds of MHz and beyond.
But this is not "resonance."

Other waveshapes, which are a distortion of the sinusoid, (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waveform) will
produce harmonics as well.  The shape of the wave will determine
whether the harmonics are odd, even, or both.


Quote from: pauldude
The strongest harmonics are going to be those which reinforce the parent frequency, which itself is merely the center harmonic in the system. Other harmonics will interplay, but will cancel themselves out quickly. Strong harmonics far away on the scale from the original input frequency will be those naturally reinforcing. If you want a specific harmonic to be present very far from the original frequency, the input must by nature be reinforcing.

Harmonics are derived from the distorted fundamental (http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/H/harmonics.html) waveshape
and their spectrum can be extremely broad.  By altering the shape
of the fundamental wave it is possible to accentuate certain harmonics.



Quote from: pauldude
The main POWER in the input signal is at either maximum or at minimum. We don't want the amperage leading or lagging the emf, so the system must be at Q. We need the harmonics to span an extreme range and get as close as possible to the desired frequency, but stay reinforcing. We need each reversal of energy to impart the maximum amount of energy possible into the system.

When a system is "at Q" or resonance it will by nature exhibit
a narrow bandpass;  the higher the Q the narrower the bandpass.
An efficient resonant circuit will filter out most harmonics.
In order for harmonics to span a broad (extreme) range the circuit
must be non-resonant.


Quote from: pauldude
You have to think backwards in comparison to what you are used to with the classic model. In the classic model all harmonics are resonant, simply because they resonate. In Tesla's unique universe, harmonics are at pure resonance when they reinforce all other harmonics in the system. In a different approach, to Tesla there was no real practical difference between one type of wave and another. A sound wave or pressure wave was conceptually equal to an electromagnetic wave in reaction and interaction.

You'll have to elaborate on the "all harmonics are resonant
simply because they resonate" and how in Tesla's universe
"harmonics are at pure resonance."


Quote from: pauldude
Harmonic implies harmony, not dissonance. To a quarter wave resonant system, any harmonic which does not naturally reinforce is dissonance in the system. What we would call today undesirable static or white noise.

A quarter wave resonant system such as an antenna,
a coil or a resonant cavity, is responsive to certain near
harmonics.

Quote from: pauldude
I just proofread this, and I realized I left something important out.


Notice those three waves in the picture I uploaded. There is something of note in them, which the other 'harmonics' (dissonants) do not do, which is match the original signal anywhere but at the beginning of the main wave, and the end. The only reason they are resonant at all is they share two zero emf nodes with the parent wave. As you notice in the picture, a true harmonic shares four, one every 90 degrees. 0 , maximum , 0 ,  minimum and then the cycle starts over.

The graphic you provided (http://www.overunity.com/13286/resonance-and-hho/dlattach/attach/120279/) illustrates the normal
phase relationships of the various harmonics
which are within the structure of a distorted
sinusoid.  You'll have to clarify what you mean
by "the only reason they are resonant at all..."
Title: Re: Resonance and HHO
Post by: wings on February 14, 2013, 08:23:03 AM
The graphic you provided (http://www.overunity.com/13286/resonance-and-hho/dlattach/attach/120279/) illustrates the normal
phase relationships of the various harmonics
which are within the structure of a distorted
sinusoid.  You'll have to clarify what you mean
by "the only reason they are resonant at all..."

.... any substance - regardless of what is its composition - becomes plasma if heated high enough i.e. ionized . However, once it is heated it doesn't contain molecules, as all chemical bonds are broken.

now the best way to control the plasma is by  two excitation frequencies.

see on google search : dual frequency plasma

more with dual frequency you can have double effect by Superimposition of Waves

http://www.malinc.se/math/trigonometry/wavesen.php

Title: Re: Resonance and HHO
Post by: wings on February 14, 2013, 09:10:53 AM
.... any substance - regardless of what is its composition - becomes plasma if heated high enough i.e. ionized . However, once it is heated it doesn't contain molecules, as all chemical bonds are broken.

now the best way to control the plasma is by  two excitation frequencies.

see on google search : dual frequency plasma

more with dual frequency you can have double effect by Superimposition of Waves

http://www.malinc.se/math/trigonometry/wavesen.php (http://www.malinc.se/math/trigonometry/wavesen.php)



see

http://www.newphysics.se/archives/maps/waterplasma/ (http://www.newphysics.se/archives/maps/waterplasma/)


and - Cavitation Intensity Amplification Effect created by a Dual-Frequency Reactor driven at 16 kHz and 20 kHz

http://www.advancedsonics.com/Dual-Frequency%20Processing%20Technology,%20Reactors.htm#DF (http://www.advancedsonics.com/Dual-Frequency%20Processing%20Technology,%20Reactors.htm#DF)
Title: Re: Resonance and HHO
Post by: pauldude000 on February 14, 2013, 05:31:56 PM
Producing a signal which is rich in phase locked harmonics
is quite easy.  One of the most useful in this respect is the
pulse waveform;  a short pulse with fast rise and fall times.
For example, a 1.0 KHz pulse waveshape with sharp edges
can produce harmonics into the hundreds of MHz and beyond.
But this is not "resonance."

Other waveshapes, which are a distortion of the sinusoid, (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waveform) will
produce harmonics as well.  The shape of the wave will determine
whether the harmonics are odd, even, or both.


Harmonics are derived from the distorted fundamental (http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/H/harmonics.html) waveshape
and their spectrum can be extremely broad.  By altering the shape
of the fundamental wave it is possible to accentuate certain harmonics.



When a system is "at Q" or resonance it will by nature exhibit
a narrow bandpass;  the higher the Q the narrower the bandpass.
An efficient resonant circuit will filter out most harmonics.
In order for harmonics to span a broad (extreme) range the circuit
must be non-resonant.


You'll have to elaborate on the "all harmonics are resonant
simply because they resonate" and how in Tesla's universe
"harmonics are at pure resonance."


A quarter wave resonant system such as an antenna,
a coil or a resonant cavity, is responsive to certain near
harmonics.

The graphic you provided (http://www.overunity.com/13286/resonance-and-hho/dlattach/attach/120279/) illustrates the normal
phase relationships of the various harmonics
which are within the structure of a distorted
sinusoid.  You'll have to clarify what you mean
by "the only reason they are resonant at all..."


I clarify things for those people wanting to understand my statements. I choose to do so by free will.


Your posts are starting to appear as if you perceive that I have some obligation or responsibility to clarify something to you, which is simply not true.


Just thought I would point that out.


-----


If I followed your concept to design my unit, the waves would distort beyond recognition, emf cancellation and algebraic distortions would throw the waveform off frequency. Amperage cancellations would amplify, and the strength of the harmonics would bleed out to nothing quickly. It would be a cool looking waveform on my oscilloscope at that point, with just that much value. To the water molecules, I would be delivering precisely jack squat in resonant power at any frequency they care about.


NO!


You are talking quarter wave resonance, but thinking full wave resonance. You are questioning the theory based upon the standard model when I have patiently explained I am not using the standard model. I do not think it gets clearer then that. When I stated that my definitions of 'resonant' do not match due to Tesla's usages, I would expect people to both understand and accept that they do not indeed match. That is common sense.


I will try once more, as I do have better things to do. I am tired, and if you cannot tell, it is possible that I am just a hair cranky. This sometimes occurs when I am tired.


I am using Tesla's concept model of both resonance and resonation. As for 'pure resonance' and 'true resonance', those are his words. You are right in that they, make no sense when examined from the common model. I cannot help that, as they are a part of his concept model. It wasn't until I realized that he was speaking a different language that just happened to use the same words, that I tried to understand just what in the heck he was even talking about.


I, like you, was basing my understanding on the common model.


If you actually want to understand, you are going to have no choice but get out of the proverbial 'box' for a few minutes.


To find the quarter wavelength frequency for an antenna, you take the antenna length and multiply it times four. (Assuming in a vacuum where the speed of light is actually C. It is somewhat slower in the atmosphere. and f=c/wavelength)


This gives you the frequency at which any given antenna resonates and creates the maximum difference of potential between the ends of the signal for any give wave of a specific amplitude but varying the aspect of frequency.


Only in multiples or divisions of 5 times the design frequency does this reoccur. Still with me?


In a POWER based system you do not want harmonics lowering the emf. It goes against the concept of efficient POWER distribution. POWER is the emf (in volts) x Amperage at any given point on any wave.


Using the 1/4 wavelength principle, it acts like, or appears to be, a standing wave, though in reality the wave is oscillating back and forth. The antenna 1/4 wave single dipole appears to the applied signal to be four times it's length.


Any harmonic which tries to destroy (algebraic bs here) the waveform is also trying to change the frequency, which also affects the amperage in unstable ways, which makes the system put out less TOTAL POWER, which is the goal.


The more POWER is available in the system of frequencies, the more POWER can be delivered by all of the frequencies to any other antenna which will resonate at 1/4 wave to the frequency. If I remember correctly, any dipole that absorbs the energy will automatically re-radiate half of that energy.


Therefore, we need as much POWER on frequency, and on all frequencies which will treat the GOAL WAVELENGTH as a 1/4 wave dipole as we can provide. The POWER in any induced harmonic is always LESS than the applied POWER for the main frequency. Much less. The farther in frequency one gets from the main frequency, the LESS POWER the harmonic has.


Those three super-imposed waveforms were to show how they reinforce each other AT CRITICAL POINTS IN THE WAVEFORM. Anything else is not resonant to the system, but actually destroys 'pure' resonance.


--------


Tesla demonstrated the traits of a form of autism called Asperger syndrome. He would have necessarily been EXTREMELY high functioning. I wouldn't have caught that myself except that my own son is Asperger.


Just like Tesla, I find him using my words, but speaking a different language than what I think he is necessarily saying, which I then have to interpret to understand. ALL of Tesla's weird 'quirks' fall into line with Asperger syndrome. His self-described extreme clumsiness as a child, his demonstrated obsessions and repetitive routines that he had to do merely to function.... His complete lack of empathy which he described when his dad died... Classic. Almost textbook. It also explains his brilliance and fixation upon resonant systems.


What is worse is what it implies. A high functioning person with the syndrome, such as my son, can focus 100% of their concentration into solving a problem.... IF they want to. (Otherwise forget it.) As intelligent as Tesla was, it literally means he could be Einstein on any particular subject he had interest in, yet be somewhat deficient in others just because he had no interest or could see no perceived value.


It doesn't make him an idiot savant. It made him an intelligent savant. It also explains his weird ***** conceptions. He wasn't using our dictionary. If the definition didn't fit, he would have defined it for himself.


I personally find his definition of 'resonant' more accurate towards reality.



Title: Re: Resonance and HHO
Post by: SeaMonkey on February 14, 2013, 10:10:56 PM





Quote from: pauldude
If I followed your concept to design my unit, the waves would distort beyond recognition, emf cancellation and algebraic distortions would throw the waveform off frequency. Amperage cancellations would amplify, and the strength of the harmonics would bleed out to nothing quickly. It would be a cool looking waveform on my oscilloscope at that point, with just that much value. To the water molecules, I would be delivering precisely jack squat in resonant power at any frequency they care about.

I'm not suggesting any sort of design criteria
with respect to your unit;  I'm merely providing
clarification on the process of generating harmonics
and how they can easily be produced for some
useful purpose.  Some of your explanation of where
you're going is difficult to follow and it appears that
there may be confusion.


Quote from: pauldude
You are talking quarter wave resonance, but thinking full wave resonance. You are questioning the theory based upon the standard model when I have patiently explained I am not using the standard model. I do not think it gets clearer then that. When I stated that my definitions of 'resonant' do not match due to Tesla's usages, I would expect people to both understand and accept that they do not indeed match. That is common sense.

There is really nothing unusual or contradictory
about Tesla's use of the term resonance.  In that
time resonance was surprisingly well understood.
Quarter Wave Resonance is a reality which cannot
be confused with Full Wave Resonance.  The
dimensions are different.


Quote from: pauldude
I will try once more, as I do have better things to do. I am tired, and if you cannot tell, it is possible that I am just a hair cranky. This sometimes occurs when I am tired.


I am using Tesla's concept model of both resonance and resonation. As for 'pure resonance' and 'true resonance', those are his words. You are right in that they, make no sense when examined from the common model. I cannot help that, as they are a part of his concept model. It wasn't until I realized that he was speaking a different language that just happened to use the same words, that I tried to understand just what in the heck he was even talking about.


I, like you, was basing my understanding on the common model.


If you actually want to understand, you are going to have no choice but get out of the proverbial 'box' for a few minutes.

Tesla may have been the first to understand
propagational resonance as it develops in the
end fed coil or the end fed antenna and the
impedance transformation at resonance.  But
in his writings I've not encountered anything
which is indicative of some "new model."  He
was breaking new ground and some of his
terminology requires thought to put it into
perspective regarding what we now know about
Radio Frequency Phenomena.

Quote from: pauldude
To find the quarter wavelength frequency for an antenna, you take the antenna length and multiply it times four. (Assuming in a vacuum where the speed of light is actually C. It is somewhat slower in the atmosphere. and f=c/wavelength)


This gives you the frequency at which any given antenna resonates and creates the maximum difference of potential between the ends of the signal for any give wave of a specific amplitude but varying the aspect of frequency.


Only in multiples or divisions of 5 times the design frequency does this reoccur. Still with me?

No, afraid not.  Five times?  There seems to
be some confusion in your understanding of
quarter wave resonance and the phasing of
the reflected wave at the point of reflection.

Quote from: pauldude
In a POWER based system you do not want harmonics lowering the emf. It goes against the concept of efficient POWER distribution. POWER is the emf (in volts) x Amperage at any given point on any wave.

It is true that in a power distribution system
that harmonics can cause problems.  But how
would harmonics "lower the emf?"

What you've said regarding power in the wave
is correct relative to the instantaneous power at
any given point along the wavelength.

Quote from: pauldude
Using the 1/4 wavelength principle, it acts like, or appears to be, a standing wave, though in reality the wave is oscillating back and forth. The antenna 1/4 wave single dipole appears to the applied signal to be four times it's length.

To the applied resonant frequency the
1/4 wave antenna would appear to be
1/4 the length of the full wavelength.
Or, 90 degrees of wavelength.

The applied incident wave propagates
down the antenna to its end where it
encounters an "open circuit" which
forces the wave to reflect backwards
towards the feedpoint.  There is no
phase change at the point of reflection.

At the feedpoint the reflected wave
arrives after 180 degrees of delay to
interact with the incident wave

Yes, it is the algebraic summation of the
incident wave and the reflected wave which
accounts for the Standing Wave.  The standing
wave is a sure sign of resonance and causes a
stationary voltage maximum at the far end of
the antenna and a stationary voltage minimum
at the feedpoint of the antenna.

The power measured at any point on the Standing
Wave is essentially equal, minus radiation loss or
resistive loss.  Where the voltage is low the current
is high and where the voltage is high the current is
low.  Each point on the standing wave has its own
differing impedance as a consequence.  To extract
power from the standing wave efficiently the device
being powered must have an impedance which matches
the impedance at some point on the standing wave.

Tesla observed these same phenomena in his
work with his coils, his so called "hairpin" resonator
and his magnifying transmitter.

Quote from: pauldude
Any harmonic which tries to destroy (algebraic bs here) the waveform is also trying to change the frequency, which also affects the amperage in unstable ways, which makes the system put out less TOTAL POWER, which is the goal.

Harmonics do not destroy the waveform.
The harmonics can be filtered out to find
the fundamental waveshape is intact.

In an electrical power system of 50 Hz or
60 Hz harmonics can disrupt certain devices
such as motors and sensory/control devices
which regulate the "grid."

Harmonics can add to the fundamental wave
to produce unusual waveshapes but nothing
is destroyed.  The frequency is not changed;
the fundamental and all harmonics are discrete
and can be separated if desired.

Quote from: pauldude
The more POWER is available in the system of frequencies, the more POWER can be delivered by all of the frequencies to any other antenna which will resonate at 1/4 wave to the frequency. If I remember correctly, any dipole that absorbs the energy will automatically re-radiate half of that energy.

If you're referring to sourcing a multitude of
harmonics to stimulate numerous antennae
which are each resonant to a different harmonic
then that is a possibility.  There are broadband
systems which operate on that principle.  An antenna
array properly designed can be fed with numerous
frequencies on a common transmission line and
each will find its own resonant antenna.

Quote from: pauldude
Therefore, we need as much POWER on frequency, and on all frequencies which will treat the GOAL WAVELENGTH as a 1/4 wave dipole as we can provide. The POWER in any induced harmonic is always LESS than the applied POWER for the main frequency. Much less. The farther in frequency one gets from the main frequency, the LESS POWER the harmonic has.

Yes, that is correct.

Quote from: pauldude
Those three super-imposed waveforms were to show how they reinforce each other AT CRITICAL POINTS IN THE WAVEFORM. Anything else is not resonant to the system, but actually destroys 'pure' resonance.

Pure Resonance cannot be destroyed.  Any
wave present which does not support resonance
will simply be rejected by the resonant circuit
or device.  A resonant circuit is selective and
will reject anything which does not fit.

--------

Quote from: pauldude
Tesla demonstrated the traits of a form of autism called Asperger syndrome. He would have necessarily been EXTREMELY high functioning. I wouldn't have caught that myself except that my own son is Asperger.


Just like Tesla, I find him using my words, but speaking a different language than what I think he is necessarily saying, which I then have to interpret to understand. ALL of Tesla's weird 'quirks' fall into line with Asperger syndrome. His self-described extreme clumsiness as a child, his demonstrated obsessions and repetitive routines that he had to do merely to function.... His complete lack of empathy which he described when his dad died... Classic. Almost textbook. It also explains his brilliance and fixation upon resonant systems.


What is worse is what it implies. A high functioning person with the syndrome, such as my son, can focus 100% of their concentration into solving a problem.... IF they want to. (Otherwise forget it.) As intelligent as Tesla was, it literally means he could be Einstein on any particular subject he had interest in, yet be somewhat deficient in others just because he had no interest or could see no perceived value.


It doesn't make him an idiot savant. It made him an intelligent savant. It also explains his weird ***** conceptions. He wasn't using our dictionary. If the definition didn't fit, he would have defined it for himself.


I personally find his definition of 'resonant' more accurate towards reality.

Tesla was indeed an unusual man and he may
have suffered from that condition.  No matter,
he was valued and loved by many because of
who he was.  Just as your Son is no doubt loved
and appreciated.  Each of us has our own flaws
and defects; somehow we manage to learn and
to devote our energies to things we enjoy and
find value in.
Title: Re: Resonance and HHO
Post by: pauldude000 on February 15, 2013, 02:36:03 AM
@Seamonkey


Quote
No, afraid not.  Five times?  There seems tobe some confusion in your understanding ofquarter wave resonance and the phasing ofthe reflected wave at the point of reflection.


Dude, I cannot help it if you have never examined the issue. There are several sine wave generator apps on the web, use one. I demonstrated thee frequencies, and ALL of those I demonstrated were multiples of five. I did not include any dissonant frequency multiples, such as 2, 3, or 4 wavelengths. Though they are harmonics, they are NOT truly 1/4 wave resonant to an antenna designed to the base frequency. Not even close.


Sorry if this confuses or upsets you. Prove it to yourself.


This link is to an online sinewave graphics generator. 1 cycle is one wavelength. Create five images, downloading them. 1 cycle, 2 cycles, etc to 5 cycles.


http://www.maxmcarter.com/sinewave/sinegen.html (http://www.maxmcarter.com/sinewave/sinegen.html)


Erase the backgrounds using a good graphics program.


http://bit.ly/11Y1kpV (http://bit.ly/11Y1kpV) (short link to Chasys Draw IES graphics editor which is free, and almost as powerful as photoshop)




Super-impose the images.


At the start of the base wave, draw a 1/4 wave dipole. (straight line 1/4 wavelength)


NONE of the other four waves is 1/4 wave resonant. Only one of the four shorter wavelengths will work, as it can SIMULATE 1/4 wave resonance. (is at the proper phase and amplitude at 90 degree phase of the base (antenna) wavelength)


Like I said before, and say again (for the last time in this particular conversation), this ONLY occurs with wavelengths that are multiples of 5 or 1/5 of the base wavelength.
Title: Re: Resonance and HHO
Post by: SeaMonkey on February 15, 2013, 03:49:34 AM
Quote from: pauldude
Dude, I cannot help it if you have never examined the issue. There are several sine wave generator apps on the web, use one. I demonstrated thee frequencies, and ALL of those I demonstrated were multiples of five. I did not include any dissonant frequency multiples, such as 2, 3, or 4 wavelengths. Though they are harmonics, they are NOT truly 1/4 wave resonant to an antenna designed to the base frequency. Not even close.

There is possibly some confusion as to what
Quarter Wave Resonance is?  Or, for that matter,
Resonance itself?

An antenna which is cut for 1/4 wave resonance
will exhibit that resonance at only a single
frequency or wavelength. (http://www.radio-electronics.com/info/antennas/basics/resonance.php)

It is possible for such an antenna to exhibit
resonance at harmonics but that would not
be 1/4 wave resonance.  The developed standing
wave patterns would be greater than 1/4 wave.

Studying how the peaks of harmonically related
sinusoidal waves align constructively when
superimposed is interesting and does confirm
Fourier analysis (http://www.fourier-series.com/fourierseries2/fourier_series_tutorial.html) to some extent, but that is not a
definition of "resonance."

Your "multiples of five" when combined will produce
a certain unique waveshape but what has that to
do with Resonance?
 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resonance)
In any case water in an electrolyzer is responsive
to stimulation by pulsing at various frequencies
and waveshapes.  The efficiency of Hydrogen and
Oxygen evolution can be enhanced by such pulsing.
That certain frequencies have produced favorable
increases in gaseous production has been studied
and verified.

Whether any sort of resonance is involved in the
phenomenon hasn't been conclusively demonstrated.
Title: Re: Resonance and HHO
Post by: pauldude000 on February 15, 2013, 05:48:52 PM
There is possibly some confusion as to what
Quarter Wave Resonance is?  Or, for that matter,
Resonance itself?

An antenna which is cut for 1/4 wave resonance
will exhibit that resonance at only a single
frequency or wavelength. (http://www.radio-electronics.com/info/antennas/basics/resonance.php)

It is possible for such an antenna to exhibit
resonance at harmonics but that would not
be 1/4 wave resonance.  The developed standing
wave patterns would be greater than 1/4 wave.

.........

Your "multiples of five" when combined will produce
a certain unique waveshape but what has that to
do with Resonance?
 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Resonance)
..........

Whether any sort of resonance is involved in the
phenomenon hasn't been conclusively demonstrated.


Good, you have at least opened the proverbial box. Awesome! We can actually discuss this, which I am all for.


Here is where I start deviating from the standard model.


"An antenna which is cut for 1/4 wave resonance (http://www.radio-electronics.com/info/antennas/basics/resonance.php) will exhibit that resonance at only a single (http://www.radio-electronics.com/info/antennas/basics/resonance.php) frequency or wavelength. (http://www.radio-electronics.com/info/antennas/basics/resonance.php)"


Prove it... :) Those 'mutiples of 5' are not just harmonics. They are 1/4 wave harmonics. They share all of the wave characteristics to resonate on the antenna alongside the main frequency. Every single one of them will resonate on that antenna, producing the qualifying standing wave. They will modify the wave shape, but not change either the main frequency or reduce the power within the system.


They will actually be strengthened by the main signal, while reinforcing the main signal. If They are the main signal, they will produce the same available power on the same antenna as would the base signal. The antenna itself cannot tell the difference. However this is a one way street, from the smaller wavelength to the larger.


If the base signal is applied directly to a 1/5 smaller antenna, it will instead induce a resonance of the frequency at which the smaller antenna was cut for, but with great loss of power as well as considerable 'noise'. This is caused by indirect coupling and induction.


Think tuning fork next to a crystal glass rod. The frequency the glass rod resonates at is not necessarily the frequency of the fork. Using an antenna principle, the glass rod was nowhere near the length of the 1/4, 1/2, or even 1 wavelength of the applied wave, which are kilometers long at the frequency of sound, so why did it resonate at all and return an audible pitch with waves themselves kilometers long? Small antennas often show the same principles. That is why the antenna on your portable AM/FM radio doesn't have to be kilometers or even hundreds of meters long.


If the smaller wavelength is applied to a 5 times larger than normal 1/4 wave dipole antenna, it will ring as if designed for it. This is determined by wave phase of the applied signal at the end of the antenna. If on phase at the proper point in the cycle, it will create a standing wave. The applied wave must be at 90 degrees at the end of the antenna.


You may wonder about my use of the term 'system'. I use the term to refer to not only the main frequency and it's power, but all the derivatives and their interactions as well, all of the above as a combined into single conceptual enitity.


At to your  first question in your post, consider this. The modern definitions of resonance and harmonics, etc., are based inherently off of music and sound, and in their usage have no more real applicability towards electromagnetism than octave or pitch. Similar in concept, but enough different in practicality that a new term should have been created. That is why many physics books use the base frequency as the first harmonic, and many calculators and engineering concepts separate the base signal from the harmonics of the base signal, as it is both self-referencing and illogical to reference a base signal as it's own harmonic. We aren't teaching music, nor building pianos.


As to:


Quote
Whether any sort of resonance is involved in the [/size]phenomenon hasn't been conclusively demonstrated.[/size]


Absolutely. Precisely. Yes! No-one has said it does.


We are going to check that out, as it should play a part... That is unless someone is implying that the mysterious water molecule is some sort of unique magical entity that doesn't follow the pattern of everything else in the universe.


That is a very good reason to experiment with the concept, now is it not?
Title: Re: Resonance and HHO
Post by: SeaMonkey on February 16, 2013, 02:51:58 AM
The 1/4 Wave Antenna is desirable for its
radiation characteristics and impedance.
In truth, a resonant standing wave can
be produced on any length of antenna
at any frequency.  All that is required is
the ability to cause a reflection of the
incident wave to set up a condition where
two traveling waves interact:  the incident
wave and the reflected wave.  This interaction
will produce a standing wave or "stationary
wave" with voltage peaks and nulls which
are fixed so long as the frequency doesn't
vary.

The presence of harmonics, or other frequencies,
will produce other peaks and nulls which may
or may not reinforce the fundamental frequency
of interest.  In most cases the harmonics are at
a very low amplitude and their effects are negligible.

The presence of the harmonics may be greatly increased
by injection from multiple signal sources if desired.

I now understand your "model" and how you've arrived
at it.  Unorthodox though it may be, you have noticed
a certain phase relationship correlation in those harmonics
which you find to be unique.

I appreciate that you've taken the time and made the
effort to clarify what your thoughts are.

In your pursuit of enhanced Hydrogen and Oxygen
production by means of the frequency stimulated
electrolyzer you are bound to observe the same
mysterious effects that others have found.

Very sharp pulses at three or more harmonically
related frequencies superimposed upon a
DC potential just at or slightly below the electrolysis
threshold seems to be the most effective.

With patience and perseverance you and your
partners in experimentation should enjoy some
measure of success.

Title: Re: Resonance and HHO
Post by: stevie1001 on February 16, 2013, 11:40:46 PM
How do you know that he will find some succes, mr. Seamonkey?
Or is it a guess?


Title: Re: Resonance and HHO
Post by: SeaMonkey on February 17, 2013, 03:45:36 AM
Greetings Stevie,

It's been quite a while since we've had the opportunity
to share ideas.
Title: Re: Resonance and HHO
Post by: stevie1001 on February 17, 2013, 09:22:10 AM
Yes, it has been a couple of years, ill gues...

Thanks for the documents.
The pdf who talks about resonant effects is nice.
My only issue is that the test is done with 20volts over two electrodes.
Thats 18 volts too much, is it?
Its nice to read that they found some effect....but in numbers of efficiency it is not a step forwards.
Or am i wrong here?

Regards
Title: Re: Resonance and HHO
Post by: pauldude000 on February 17, 2013, 09:28:41 AM
I now understand your "model" and how you've arrived
at it.  Unorthodox though it may be, you have noticed
a certain phase relationship correlation in those harmonics
which you find to be unique.

I appreciate that you've taken the time and made the
effort to clarify what your thoughts are.

In your pursuit of enhanced Hydrogen and Oxygen
production by means of the frequency stimulated
electrolyzer you are bound to observe the same
mysterious effects that others have found.

Very sharp pulses at three or more harmonically
related frequencies superimposed upon a
DC potential just at or slightly below the electrolysis
threshold seems to be the most effective.

With patience and perseverance you and your
partners in experimentation should enjoy some
measure of success.


I think the possibility exists as well, though an appealing experimental concept does not guarantee any sort of success. I thank you for the advice, and have over-all had an enjoyable talk with you. (When I was not tired that is. I can get quite cranky.)


With the combination of various factors carefully calculated,  thoughtful and precise construction applied to the unit, I see no guarantee of failure, and the reasonable expectation of a possibility for success. That is enough for me.


I will post the frequencies I calculate as soon as I can. (I am in the middle of editing a 120,000 word novel I am writing as well as another book started. Business with pleasure so to speak, but deadlines don't wait.)
Title: Re: Resonance and HHO
Post by: pauldude000 on February 17, 2013, 09:56:45 AM
Greetings Stevie,

It's been quite a while since we've had the opportunity
to share ideas.


6115710 was interesting. I never would have guessed it was the Nickle content of the stainless steel Cr-Ni-Fe-C which made it suitable as a long term inexpensive electrode for the purpose.


7043466 I haven't read as yet, and will read it later.
Title: Re: Resonance and HHO
Post by: pauldude000 on February 17, 2013, 10:32:56 AM
Hasn't anyone yet made the simple logical association that Faraday's laws of electrolysis are predicated upon postulated constant applied DC current, and are not necessarily valid as laws towards applied AC or even pulsed DC?


Laws are only valid within the specified circumstances.


Title: Re: Resonance and HHO
Post by: SeaMonkey on February 17, 2013, 06:51:34 PM
Yes, Faraday's Law regarding electrolysis has to
do with the ionic oxidation and reduction which
takes place at the electrodes as a consequence
of electrical current flow in a strictly chemical
reaction sense.

The voltage necessary to achieve electrolysis is
dependent upon the conductivity of  the water
and how much electrolyte is in solution.  Pure
water would require a fairly high emf while a
strong electrolyte solution less than 2 volts per
cell.
Title: Re: Resonance and HHO
Post by: wings on February 17, 2013, 07:10:56 PM
Greetings Stevie,

It's been quite a while since we've had the opportunity
to share ideas.

see this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=XVBEwn6iWOo#!
Title: Re: Resonance and HHO
Post by: Gwandau on February 18, 2013, 12:17:51 AM
see this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=XVBEwn6iWOo# (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=XVBEwn6iWOo#)!

Great link, Wings.

This is fascinating information about the strange properties of water.
 

Dr. Gerald Pollack, UW professor of bioengineering has discovered a long range liquid crystal phase in water consisting of about three million molecular layers of gelly-like organised positively charged water known as being responsible for the surface tension. He has named this layer the EZ-layer(Extended Xone).
 

This is highly interesting since it indicates that water is not neutral, and in fact he did get a measurable current out of the charged differential between the EZ-layer and the adjacent negatively charged area. So the crystalline water phase is positive charged and have been found to grow at the air-water interface normally called the area of surface tension.
 

One factor that Dr. Gerald Pollack found out was that the stable crystalline phase of water extends far out into the normal bulk water and that the region of positively charged crystalline water expands considerable when exposed to light,the best effect found in the infrared region at the 3 micrometer wavelength .
 
He concludes that the effect of light upon water, such as the effect of the sun upon the water of our planet is shown to primarily be spent on charging the water molecular crystalline structure, and only secondary spent on warming up the water on our planet. This is indeed controversial results, and would indicate that the important of light in regard to the electro chemical state of water has been considerably underestimated.
 

He says that he may have found the very basis for photo synthesis found in the current formed between the surface layer and the bulk of water, since the current measured in the "water battery" was highly increased by exposing the water to light.
 

 
@Pauldude,

Maybe there is a clue here as how to approach the HHO resonance quest. I have a feeling that the organized and quite strained surface layer is the target we should concentrate on. The crystalline water structure is found not only in the interface between water and air but in any transition area, although the strongest effect where found in areas close to hydro phobic surfaces.
 

Merely by using same shape as a dry cell for the frequency experiments we will have created an environment where the percentage of surface area is optimized and the volume of neutral bulk water is minimized.
 
 
 
This in combination with light as a crystal stabilizer will arrange the water molecules in such an unison array that any frequency applied may have a much more controlled effect upon the water bonds.

Maybe this is what makes the difference.
 

It will in any case be included in my own initial test series as a highly interesting parameter to study.
 

Gwandau
 
Below is a screen dump from the video depicting some interesting properties of the EZ-layer.
Note: When using the term "stable" below, Dr. Pollack is only refferring to the molecular positioning, not the stability of the internal molecular bonds, which are the same as in bulk water.
Title: Re: Resonance and HHO
Post by: zwitt on May 01, 2013, 03:39:49 AM
Hi,

you know this work ?

http://www.ijee.ieefoundation.org/vol3/issue1/IJEE_13_v3n1.pdf

Zbig
Title: Re: Resonance and HHO
Post by: magpwr on May 01, 2013, 10:53:13 AM
Hi,

If anyone plan to work on HHO which produce produce large amount of HHO at 12volts x 0.5amp.

Before embarking on this project electronics knowledge is a must.

Please refer to the video below.The pdf link was extracted from youtube description.There is no selling involved so this is not a scam.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9XrLOudwRw (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9XrLOudwRw)

http://www.panaceauniversity.org/Ravi%20Cell.pdf (http://www.panaceauniversity.org/Ravi%20Cell.pdf)

After reading the pdf document few times over.
1)This is what i know seamless stainless steel rods got to be used 316 or 316L with gaps less than 1.57mm(Please use online unit convertor to convert to inch,depending on your region).
2)Rods got to be sanded should not have smooth surface even for the inner tube
3)Conditioning at 0.2amps using pulsed current to lower current input to prevent unstable big white chunk being form on tube which may fall off easily.
4)Tubes got to be air dried after each condition cycle as mention in the document.The white layer which slowly forms on tube should never be touched.Conditioning the tubes takes 3 months.

Pulsing circuit or frequency generator can be purchased in ebay on the cheap or create Dave Lawton circuit http://www.making-hydrogen.com/hydrogen-generator-555-timer.html (http://www.making-hydrogen.com/hydrogen-generator-555-timer.html)

Imaging having hho torch(Temperature around 2800C) using around 6watt of power or using hho fire heat to power stirling generator.

There is possibility of getting overunity by using free piston stirling engine with helium instead of air.Better than using hho for cars or petrol generator which could wear off engine parts quicker.
Please take note ignition timing got to be retarded a little for optimal performance for petrol engine.









Title: Re: Resonance and HHO
Post by: rogerthat on June 15, 2013, 08:02:54 PM
I am new to this thread, but not HHO research, nor this site, and it's been a while, so I forgot my last username and had to register as a new user.

I have a few theories about the Meyer's resonance issue, some of which I have proven.

Water molecules become entrained in the process of conducting electrons.
The Russians have put this into use to reduce friction encountered while moving vessels and torpedoes in water.
Picture water molecules forming strands like hair.
Once the molecules are entrained, they resist making new conduction paths.
I have placed 2 electrodes in water, spaced 3mm apart, and while I was applying a high voltage signal at resonant freq to those electrodes, they were totally insulated from each other, and no current would flow between them while 40 volts was applied across them.

Resonance:
A resonant circuit consists of an inductor and a capacitor.
Picture a spring (inductor) and a weight (capacitor), similar to a door-stop spring or a tuning fork.
Now back to actual circuitry.
In Meyer's circuitry, the inductor is apparent, the capacitor is not so apparent.
How many electrons exist in any glass of water? (would vary with the amount of water)
Can a glass of water hold a static charge? (yep)
Picture an inductor pumping electrons in and out of water through a single electrode.
The electrons yanked out of the water have to go somewhere (some larger body, earth or a car body maybe)
The plates of a capacitor can be brought close together to increase storage capacity, or set miles apart.
Either way, each plate still has electrons that can be pumped in or out to create a surplus or deficit.
Either way, it's still a functional capacitor.
When the plates are far apart, the measurable capacity will be dependant on the lesser of the two masses.
When the plates are close together, the capacity is augmented by the electric field created between the plates.

I said all that to say this.
The resonant frequency Meyer's speaks of is based on the inductive capacity of the VIC, and the lesser capacitive mass of the cell (electrodes and water combined).  The resonance has nothing to do with the spacing of the electrodes in the water, or the quality of the water itself.  (The cell is one of the two capacitor plates)

Operating at resonance keeps the water molecules entrained.

The VIC:
The VIC bifilar windings server two purposes.
1) An inductor involved in creating the resonant part of the circuit which entrains the electrons in the cell.
2) An extension cord and analog delay line for the delayed application of a high voltage differential to the cell electrodes.

Picture +3000 volts being equally applied to two electrodes, which entrain the water molecules and subsequently deplete the water of electrons, then, while the electrodes have been insulated from each other by the entrainment of the water molecules, a high voltage differential is applied to the electrodes.

With the entrainment engaged, and a high voltage field applied across the entrainment strands, and some of the water molecules having fewer than the required electrons needed to sustain the covalent bonding, the molecule breaks down.

I may have left a few small details out, but that's my theory in a nutshell.

I have yet to apply more than 40 volts across the electrodes.

Also, I have made water break down using only one electrode using a signal consisting of high voltage spikes at 60 cycles.


Title: Re: Resonance and HHO
Post by: Manolis on July 11, 2017, 08:58:49 PM
I realise this is an old discussion but it came up in a search for "electrolysis resonant frequency" so I signed up to ask whether any progress has been made?

I'm an Electronics Engineer (university degree) retired. I have built my own small electronics workshop in the garden. I'm building an HHO generator to see whether it makes any difference to the running of my 50cc motorbike. There's not much current available from the magneto (12v system) so the HHO gas generator needs to be efficient.

I thought of pulsing the supply current using a 555 circuit to drive a MOSFET or similar. So far I have 6 interleaved plates put together using Inox stainless steel perforated with 4.8 mm holes and using nylon spacers. The steel just barely attracts a very strong magnet so I guess theres some nickel in it.

Hmm, I can't read the verification code. I can see that it's going to be tedious to type posts here. FUABHC
OK, second try! FUADHC