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Author Topic: Resonance and HHO  (Read 82462 times)

Offline pauldude000

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Re: Resonance and HHO
« Reply #60 on: February 17, 2013, 09:56:45 AM »
Greetings Stevie,

It's been quite a while since we've had the opportunity
to share ideas.


6115710 was interesting. I never would have guessed it was the Nickle content of the stainless steel Cr-Ni-Fe-C which made it suitable as a long term inexpensive electrode for the purpose.


7043466 I haven't read as yet, and will read it later.

Offline pauldude000

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Re: Resonance and HHO
« Reply #61 on: February 17, 2013, 10:32:56 AM »
Hasn't anyone yet made the simple logical association that Faraday's laws of electrolysis are predicated upon postulated constant applied DC current, and are not necessarily valid as laws towards applied AC or even pulsed DC?


Laws are only valid within the specified circumstances.



Offline SeaMonkey

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Re: Resonance and HHO
« Reply #62 on: February 17, 2013, 06:51:34 PM »
Yes, Faraday's Law regarding electrolysis has to
do with the ionic oxidation and reduction which
takes place at the electrodes as a consequence
of electrical current flow in a strictly chemical
reaction sense.

The voltage necessary to achieve electrolysis is
dependent upon the conductivity of  the water
and how much electrolyte is in solution.  Pure
water would require a fairly high emf while a
strong electrolyte solution less than 2 volts per
cell.

Offline wings

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Re: Resonance and HHO
« Reply #63 on: February 17, 2013, 07:10:56 PM »
Greetings Stevie,

It's been quite a while since we've had the opportunity
to share ideas.

see this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=XVBEwn6iWOo#!

Offline Gwandau

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Re: Resonance and HHO
« Reply #64 on: February 18, 2013, 12:17:51 AM »
see this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=XVBEwn6iWOo#!

Great link, Wings.

This is fascinating information about the strange properties of water.
 

Dr. Gerald Pollack, UW professor of bioengineering has discovered a long range liquid crystal phase in water consisting of about three million molecular layers of gelly-like organised positively charged water known as being responsible for the surface tension. He has named this layer the EZ-layer(Extended Xone).
 

This is highly interesting since it indicates that water is not neutral, and in fact he did get a measurable current out of the charged differential between the EZ-layer and the adjacent negatively charged area. So the crystalline water phase is positive charged and have been found to grow at the air-water interface normally called the area of surface tension.
 

One factor that Dr. Gerald Pollack found out was that the stable crystalline phase of water extends far out into the normal bulk water and that the region of positively charged crystalline water expands considerable when exposed to light,the best effect found in the infrared region at the 3 micrometer wavelength .
 
He concludes that the effect of light upon water, such as the effect of the sun upon the water of our planet is shown to primarily be spent on charging the water molecular crystalline structure, and only secondary spent on warming up the water on our planet. This is indeed controversial results, and would indicate that the important of light in regard to the electro chemical state of water has been considerably underestimated.
 

He says that he may have found the very basis for photo synthesis found in the current formed between the surface layer and the bulk of water, since the current measured in the "water battery" was highly increased by exposing the water to light.
 

 
@Pauldude,

Maybe there is a clue here as how to approach the HHO resonance quest. I have a feeling that the organized and quite strained surface layer is the target we should concentrate on. The crystalline water structure is found not only in the interface between water and air but in any transition area, although the strongest effect where found in areas close to hydro phobic surfaces.
 

Merely by using same shape as a dry cell for the frequency experiments we will have created an environment where the percentage of surface area is optimized and the volume of neutral bulk water is minimized.
 
 
 
This in combination with light as a crystal stabilizer will arrange the water molecules in such an unison array that any frequency applied may have a much more controlled effect upon the water bonds.

Maybe this is what makes the difference.
 

It will in any case be included in my own initial test series as a highly interesting parameter to study.
 

Gwandau
 
Below is a screen dump from the video depicting some interesting properties of the EZ-layer.
Note: When using the term "stable" below, Dr. Pollack is only refferring to the molecular positioning, not the stability of the internal molecular bonds, which are the same as in bulk water.

Offline zwitt

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Re: Resonance and HHO
« Reply #65 on: May 01, 2013, 03:39:49 AM »

Offline magpwr

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Re: Resonance and HHO
« Reply #66 on: May 01, 2013, 10:53:13 AM »
Hi,

If anyone plan to work on HHO which produce produce large amount of HHO at 12volts x 0.5amp.

Before embarking on this project electronics knowledge is a must.

Please refer to the video below.The pdf link was extracted from youtube description.There is no selling involved so this is not a scam.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u9XrLOudwRw

http://www.panaceauniversity.org/Ravi%20Cell.pdf

After reading the pdf document few times over.
1)This is what i know seamless stainless steel rods got to be used 316 or 316L with gaps less than 1.57mm(Please use online unit convertor to convert to inch,depending on your region).
2)Rods got to be sanded should not have smooth surface even for the inner tube
3)Conditioning at 0.2amps using pulsed current to lower current input to prevent unstable big white chunk being form on tube which may fall off easily.
4)Tubes got to be air dried after each condition cycle as mention in the document.The white layer which slowly forms on tube should never be touched.Conditioning the tubes takes 3 months.

Pulsing circuit or frequency generator can be purchased in ebay on the cheap or create Dave Lawton circuit http://www.making-hydrogen.com/hydrogen-generator-555-timer.html

Imaging having hho torch(Temperature around 2800C) using around 6watt of power or using hho fire heat to power stirling generator.

There is possibility of getting overunity by using free piston stirling engine with helium instead of air.Better than using hho for cars or petrol generator which could wear off engine parts quicker.
Please take note ignition timing got to be retarded a little for optimal performance for petrol engine.










Offline rogerthat

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Re: Resonance and HHO
« Reply #67 on: June 15, 2013, 08:02:54 PM »
I am new to this thread, but not HHO research, nor this site, and it's been a while, so I forgot my last username and had to register as a new user.

I have a few theories about the Meyer's resonance issue, some of which I have proven.

Water molecules become entrained in the process of conducting electrons.
The Russians have put this into use to reduce friction encountered while moving vessels and torpedoes in water.
Picture water molecules forming strands like hair.
Once the molecules are entrained, they resist making new conduction paths.
I have placed 2 electrodes in water, spaced 3mm apart, and while I was applying a high voltage signal at resonant freq to those electrodes, they were totally insulated from each other, and no current would flow between them while 40 volts was applied across them.

Resonance:
A resonant circuit consists of an inductor and a capacitor.
Picture a spring (inductor) and a weight (capacitor), similar to a door-stop spring or a tuning fork.
Now back to actual circuitry.
In Meyer's circuitry, the inductor is apparent, the capacitor is not so apparent.
How many electrons exist in any glass of water? (would vary with the amount of water)
Can a glass of water hold a static charge? (yep)
Picture an inductor pumping electrons in and out of water through a single electrode.
The electrons yanked out of the water have to go somewhere (some larger body, earth or a car body maybe)
The plates of a capacitor can be brought close together to increase storage capacity, or set miles apart.
Either way, each plate still has electrons that can be pumped in or out to create a surplus or deficit.
Either way, it's still a functional capacitor.
When the plates are far apart, the measurable capacity will be dependant on the lesser of the two masses.
When the plates are close together, the capacity is augmented by the electric field created between the plates.

I said all that to say this.
The resonant frequency Meyer's speaks of is based on the inductive capacity of the VIC, and the lesser capacitive mass of the cell (electrodes and water combined).  The resonance has nothing to do with the spacing of the electrodes in the water, or the quality of the water itself.  (The cell is one of the two capacitor plates)

Operating at resonance keeps the water molecules entrained.

The VIC:
The VIC bifilar windings server two purposes.
1) An inductor involved in creating the resonant part of the circuit which entrains the electrons in the cell.
2) An extension cord and analog delay line for the delayed application of a high voltage differential to the cell electrodes.

Picture +3000 volts being equally applied to two electrodes, which entrain the water molecules and subsequently deplete the water of electrons, then, while the electrodes have been insulated from each other by the entrainment of the water molecules, a high voltage differential is applied to the electrodes.

With the entrainment engaged, and a high voltage field applied across the entrainment strands, and some of the water molecules having fewer than the required electrons needed to sustain the covalent bonding, the molecule breaks down.

I may have left a few small details out, but that's my theory in a nutshell.

I have yet to apply more than 40 volts across the electrodes.

Also, I have made water break down using only one electrode using a signal consisting of high voltage spikes at 60 cycles.



Offline Manolis

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Re: Resonance and HHO
« Reply #68 on: July 11, 2017, 08:58:49 PM »
I realise this is an old discussion but it came up in a search for "electrolysis resonant frequency" so I signed up to ask whether any progress has been made?

I'm an Electronics Engineer (university degree) retired. I have built my own small electronics workshop in the garden. I'm building an HHO generator to see whether it makes any difference to the running of my 50cc motorbike. There's not much current available from the magneto (12v system) so the HHO gas generator needs to be efficient.

I thought of pulsing the supply current using a 555 circuit to drive a MOSFET or similar. So far I have 6 interleaved plates put together using Inox stainless steel perforated with 4.8 mm holes and using nylon spacers. The steel just barely attracts a very strong magnet so I guess theres some nickel in it.

Hmm, I can't read the verification code. I can see that it's going to be tedious to type posts here. FUABHC
OK, second try! FUADHC

Offline pauldude000

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Re: Resonance and HHO
« Reply #69 on: April 27, 2022, 08:22:24 AM »
I realise this is an old discussion but it came up in a search for "electrolysis resonant frequency" so I signed up to ask whether any progress has been made?

I'm an Electronics Engineer (university degree) retired. I have built my own small electronics workshop in the garden. I'm building an HHO generator to see whether it makes any difference to the running of my 50cc motorbike. There's not much current available from the magneto (12v system) so the HHO gas generator needs to be efficient.

I thought of pulsing the supply current using a 555 circuit to drive a MOSFET or similar. So far I have 6 interleaved plates put together using Inox stainless steel perforated with 4.8 mm holes and using nylon spacers. The steel just barely attracts a very strong magnet so I guess theres some nickel in it.

Hmm, I can't read the verification code. I can see that it's going to be tedious to type posts here. FUABHC
OK, second try! FUADHC


If you are still here, lol, then the 555 designs are a couple of pages back. Good circuits both of them. As far as progress? Yes. By the way, all of Stanley Meyers patents are now public domain as, since his death, his wife discontinued paying renewal fees, which let the patents expire years back.


Even though I am the Author, I had forgotten about this thread. I wrote it back when I was still working on another different type of OU project. Since then, I have read Stanley's patents, which explained his thought processes, and have examined the various devices drawn up for the patents. The concept is fairly straight forwards, but he, like other inventors often do to prevent people from easily using patents to create devices, threw in some red herrings into the mix, like his lasers.


He was basing it off of resonant technology and Tesla style harmonics, as I suspected at the start of this thread. However, that being said it is a lot easier to say than do. The target frequency is HUGE, way into the Ghz band. The only way to access it is through harmonic resonance. The problem with this is that, the farther away you get from the applied frequency, the harmonics slowly fade away in power. Basically, you have to hit the water molecules fairly hard with pulses designed to cause them to stretch to max, then hit them with a sharp pulse to cause them to break. The water molecules will not all be in sync, so only some will break at any given point.


Like I said, sounds easy -- but in practice it is not.


I have the knowledge, but ambition is somewhat lacking as I do not know whether I feel like painting a target on my back.

Online kolbacict

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Re: Resonance and HHO
« Reply #70 on: April 27, 2022, 09:46:01 AM »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_layer_(surface_science)
In this layer achieves the highest electric field strength, due to its small thickness, of all possible in water, right?

Offline kajunbee

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Re: Resonance and HHO
« Reply #71 on: April 27, 2022, 12:44:44 PM »
https://arxiv.org/pdf/1611.04677.pdf

But they did not succeed in water splitting by high electric field only.

Offline pauldude000

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Re: Resonance and HHO
« Reply #72 on: May 04, 2022, 07:29:33 AM »
They are still basing their system off of a pure constant DC source -- standard electrolysis -- but applied at the micro scale. Standard electrolysis is inefficient for numerous reasons, but a common one is the collection and pooling of negative ions reducing field strength. You have to dump massive amperage to get anywhere.

Online kolbacict

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Re: Resonance and HHO
« Reply #73 on: May 04, 2022, 09:40:31 AM »
but a common one is the collection and pooling of negative ions reducing field strength.
??
 :-\
In anyway the double electric layer is very slim.  Therefore it is small volume.
it cannot produce much gas. Am I right?

Offline alan

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Re: Resonance and HHO
« Reply #74 on: June 07, 2022, 03:50:53 PM »
resonance of water is in the ghz range (Kanzius iirc), you need resonance for a VIC to crank up voltage while blocking amps through mutual inductance.