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Author Topic: "Perfect" OU tests?  (Read 6709 times)

Offline Enigma516

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"Perfect" OU tests?
« on: January 14, 2013, 09:07:09 PM »
I would like to put together a suite of tests and a description on the tests / how to. So that we as a group can be using similar tests (hopefully in stages). These tests should be some combination of scientific tests, practical tests, and incremental steps leading up to a result.

Example (but not likely good tests)

Test 1: measure voltage out and voltage in
Test 2: measure amps out and amps in

etc... I would really like to nail this down so that I can test some devices and designs. This would give us all a set of metrics to compare.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

"Perfect" OU tests?
« on: January 14, 2013, 09:07:09 PM »

Offline Madebymonkeys

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Re: "Perfect" OU tests?
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2013, 11:09:49 PM »
I would like to put together a suite of tests and a description on the tests / how to. So that we as a group can be using similar tests (hopefully in stages). These tests should be some combination of scientific tests, practical tests, and incremental steps leading up to a result.

Example (but not likely good tests)

Test 1: measure voltage out and voltage in
Test 2: measure amps out and amps in

etc... I would really like to nail this down so that I can test some devices and designs. This would give us all a set of metrics to compare.

I am happy to help with this.
Power in vs power out is key although measuring current and voltage is only the start of it....for an AC system the phase needs to be considered (search 'power factor' on Wiki). In fact, if you aren't sure wether an output (or input) is pure DC then power factor needs to be considered.

That's it basically - a good PF meter (around a couple of thousand £ or so) should do the trick. Don't be fooled by off the shelf kill-a-watt type devices, they assume some level of compliance with the law and line voltages etc - you need a decent PF meter as used in compliance test houses (the type of test labs who test for (for example) CE compliance or VDE etc).

Many OU designs involve heavily inductive or capacitive elements which all effect PF, there can also be switching elements which inteoduce harmonics - only a high quality power quality meter can give a true reading.

Let me know if you want me to suggest some or point you in the direction of a lab with facilities (in the UK) to test.

MBM

Offline Enigma516

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Re: "Perfect" OU tests?
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2013, 12:04:34 AM »
Are there any incremental tests we all could be doing at home without that level of expensive equipment? Obviously the end goal would be to send it to be tested at an independent lab with that level of test equipment

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: "Perfect" OU tests?
« Reply #2 on: January 15, 2013, 12:04:34 AM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: "Perfect" OU tests?
« Reply #3 on: January 15, 2013, 12:16:56 AM »
I beg to disagree with Enigma's early posts above, a little bit, because what is important is not power in/out..... but rather _energy_ in and out.

It's easy to fool oneself by looking only at power measurements, and there are many examples of this happening right now.

I have SSTCs that have inputs of less than a kW and produce "outputs" of many kW if measured naively. My "tinselkoil 2.0" delivers 7-10 amps at 30 kV or higher, yet is powered by ordinary American mains power, 120V at 7 amps. How can this be? It is because peak power is not the same thing as average power, reactive power is not the same as real power, and proper measurement -- integration of the instantaneous output power over a suitable time period, to yield energy flow data -- is elusive and apparently misunderstood by many experimenters.

If power is the only measurement available, be sure to measure real power by using it in Joule heating measurements, like JLN's coffeepot tests of the induction hob "ou" claims. This kind of measurement, properly done, is a rough quick and dirty physical integration which does eventually yield energy flow data.



Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline TinselKoala

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Re: "Perfect" OU tests?
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2013, 12:27:01 AM »
Are there any incremental tests we all could be doing at home without that level of expensive equipment? Obviously the end goal would be to send it to be tested at an independent lab with that level of test equipment
There are, certainly, but the specific details will depend on the characteristics of the device under test. For example, JLN's coffeepot calorimetry is a very good test of the _real_ power (as opposed to reactive power) coming out of the bifilar coil coupled to the induction hob cooktop.

Having a high-end DSO do realtime multiplication of voltage and current, and then integrating the result over an appropriate time period will almost always work properly _IF_ the initial measurements are accurately done and the time interval is properly chosen. Examples of doing this improperly can be found in the same JLN work as the coffeepot calo measurements.
This kind of multiplication and integration can also be done manually using analog scopes, as I have shown elsewhere, but the accuracy of the result still depends on good input data, and it seems that this is where many claimants fall off the "straight and narrow" thorny path of truth. Particularly with high frequency circuits, the input measurements aren't actually measuring what they are supposed to be measuring, but rather are contaminated heavily by artefacts, and so... GIGO applies. As I have also illustrated elsewhere.
A simple illustration of what can go wrong, even when using modern equipment on simple circuits:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KWDfrzBIxoQ

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: "Perfect" OU tests?
« Reply #4 on: January 15, 2013, 12:27:01 AM »
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Offline Enigma516

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Re: "Perfect" OU tests?
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2013, 12:36:25 AM »
very interesting video thank you for sharing. Now for someone like me I am not sure how best to test the Joules conversion power output in a controlled repeatable measurable way. Do you have any suggestions?

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: "Perfect" OU tests?
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2013, 12:52:46 AM »
very interesting video thank you for sharing. Now for someone like me I am not sure how best to test the Joules conversion power output in a controlled repeatable measurable way. Do you have any suggestions?
Not specifically, without knowing the details of the device under test.

In general, using properly filtered input measurements, multiplied and integrated over time, will give correct energy input data. Output data in general can also be measured this way. But since I have no idea what test kit you have or the specifics of the DUT, I can't be more specific about testing, either.

Integrating an instantaneous power waveform is the mathematical equivalent of determining the area enclosed by the waveform (since the total waveform is a geometric representation of power x time) and will result in an answer in Joules passing your measurement point during the time interval. Back before DSOs with math, people even did things like tracing the waveform off the scope onto tracing paper, then cutting it out and weighing the paper on an analytical balance -- the weight of the paper is proportional to the area of the waveform cutout.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: "Perfect" OU tests?
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2013, 12:52:46 AM »
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Offline Madebymonkeys

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Re: "Perfect" OU tests?
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2013, 01:02:39 AM »
I beg to disagree with Enigma's early posts above, a little bit, because what is important is not power in/out..... but rather _energy_ in and out.

I an electrical system, power out / power in would be considered a good measure of efficiency.
Power = Joules per second
Energy = Joules

You could argue that power is the correct measurement.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_(physics)

Quote
It's easy to fool oneself by looking only at power measurements, and there are many examples of this happening right now.

I disagree - power is a very reasonable thing to measure, always has been.d

Quote
I have SSTCs that have inputs of less than a kW and produce "outputs" of many kW if measured naively. My "tinselkoil 2.0" delivers 7-10 amps at 30 kV or higher, yet is powered by ordinary American mains power, 120V at 7 amps. How can this be? It is because peak power is not the same thing as average power, reactive power is not the same as real power, and proper measurement -- integration of the instantaneous output power over a suitable time period, to yield energy flow data -- is elusive and apparently misunderstood by many experimenters.

I do agree, it's not an easy thing to measure at all.
If the system isn't chaotic then there will be some repetition in the input and output waveforms - sampling voltage vs current in the time domain over a long period (and at high bandwidth), and using the point data and math to calculate the power, could be a way forward with standard oscilloscope HW and a spreadsheet?

Quote
If power is the only measurement available, be sure to measure real power by using it in Joule heating measurements, like JLN's coffeepot tests of the induction hob "ou" claims. This kind of measurement, properly done, is a rough quick and dirty physical integration which does eventually yield energy flow data.

As an idea, the heating could be performed with something like a power resistor, say a bifilar wire wound type. This would be as near as damnit purely resistive and could have its terminations easily made watertight. This could then be used as the heating element for the tests you describe above by immersing it in a flask of water.

That said, power quality measurements are still important especially if you are to hook the system up to the grid.

Offline dtard

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Re: "Perfect" OU tests?
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2013, 03:11:35 AM »
And what is grid. Grid and O.U and really I don't want to have to mess with battery's. Think i'm gona have to figure this out on my own ::)

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: "Perfect" OU tests?
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2013, 03:11:35 AM »
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Offline Madebymonkeys

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Re: "Perfect" OU tests?
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2013, 08:18:16 AM »
And what is grid. Grid and O.U and really I don't want to have to mess with battery's. Think i'm gona have to figure this out on my own ::)

Huh?

Offline conradelektro

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Re: "Perfect" OU tests?
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2013, 09:51:36 AM »
Since measurements are very difficult (e.g. the power factor problem and many other pit falls, specially mechanical output or heat output is difficult to measure accurately) it would be best for an inventor of an OU-machine to show a self runner.

Of course, it will probably not be possible to build a self runner, but it would proof OU without the measurement problem.

Let's consider a sailing boat. It comes pretty close to OU, because the sailor does not have to pay for the wind. Similar is a photovoltaic panel, because the sun is there for free.

My hope is, there are other "energy sources" in the universe which can be tapped into. And a machine using this "other energy source" would look like an OU self runner (like a sailing boat or a solar panel appears to be OU if one does not understand the underlying principles).

My favorite "other energy sources" are "neutrino power", "cosmic rays"or "zero point energy" whatever they are.

Greetings, Conrad

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: "Perfect" OU tests?
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2013, 09:51:36 AM »
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Offline Madebymonkeys

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Re: "Perfect" OU tests?
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2013, 10:55:53 AM »
Since measurements are very difficult (e.g. the power factor problem and many other pit falls, specially mechanical output or heat output is difficult to measure accurately) it would be best for an inventor of an OU-machine to show a self runner.

Of course, it will probably not be possible to build a self runner, but it would proof OU without the measurement problem.

Let's consider a sailing boat. It comes pretty close to OU, because the sailor does not have to pay for the wind. Similar is a photovoltaic panel, because the sun is there for free.

My hope is, there are other "energy sources" in the universe which can be tapped into. And a machine using this "other energy source" would look like an OU self runner (like a sailing boat or a solar panel appears to be OU if one does not understand the underlying principles).

My favorite "other energy sources" are "neutrino power", "cosmic rays"or "zero point energy" whatever they are.

Greetings, Conrad

A self runner with no other source of power would certainly be the acid test!
The solar example is only really OU in a financial sense - the kW of sun hitting the panel is much more than what you get out. Financially OU (after initial incestment is recouped) is great though - making solar panels or wind power more efficient would be superb!



 

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