Author Topic: Electron Reversing Device (Read 82812 times)

tinman · « **Reply #90 on:** January 14, 2013, 02:17:01 PM »

Quote from: TinselKoala on January 14, 2013, 02:01:01 PM

@TM: Your inductance and resistance results seem reasonable, you've got a lot more wire in your bf coil than I do.
For your timing cap: Caps in series add up like resistors in parallel: 1/C₁ + 1/C₂ + ... + 1/C_n = 1/C_total, so you can build smaller caps by adding larger ones in series. So if you put another 2.2 nF in series with the one you've got you should get another step up in frequency.

I hope you get to feeling better soon, don't stress yourself in the heat.

Hi TK
No-no stress here.
If i get to hot,i just go hop in the pool lol.
But it's only 39c here today-so not to bad.

And in reguards to the cap's-yep,i know about paralle and series-but thanks all the same.
You said you were getting a cleaner wave when you went up in frequency.Mine is getting messy at about 37KHz-and the higher i go the worse it get's.
I start to get a clear ringing threw the wave at about 50KHz onward.
I placed a .22uf cap across the coil and the ringing got larger-but this seems to drop the current draw down on the input side.

If nothing else,im haveing a ball with this simple little circuit,and i now know how to get the inductance of a coil-thanks to you.
The other thing i tried was adding a couple of small incandecant bulbs in series with the led's,and they would light up quite well.

Anyway,i look forward to your findings with the circuit.

Brad

conradelektro · « **Reply #91 on:** January 14, 2013, 05:10:45 PM »

@tinman and TinselKoala:

May be I am totally stupid, but I do not get the point? What are you two trying to show? In case you have the time and patience, could you explain in layman terms?

The circuit and your measurements do not make any sense to me. But this is not surprising, because I am not an electronics specialist. I really would like to understand the gist of it and why you get excited about your measurements?

I am not criticizing, I am just curious and confused.

Greetings, Conrad

poynt99 · « **Reply #92 on:** January 14, 2013, 05:11:27 PM »

Thanks for the coil values tinman.

I'll plug those into the sim when I get home tonight.

btw, how did you measure your coil capacitance of 50pF?

gotoluc · « **Reply #93 on:** January 14, 2013, 05:21:50 PM »

Quote from: tinman on January 14, 2013, 02:04:05 PM

Another thing i noticed when i changed the 10nf cap to a 2.2nf cap on the SG,is it now draws 32ma from the battery with nothing conected to the output of the SG ?.
The SG as it is seems to be a fairly inefficient unit.
Maybe a better one could be made.Something that covers from 30KHz to 100KHz.

Hi TinMan,

Thank you for sharing your interesting effect.

Wouldn't a CMOS version of a 555 timer not be more efficient and also capable of higher frequency?

Luc

e2matrix · « **Reply #94 on:** January 14, 2013, 08:03:30 PM »

Quote from: tinman on January 14, 2013, 02:04:05 PM

After reading TK's post about not seeing much diference in the light output of the LED's,i decided to place a solar pannel with a 1k resistor across it and test the voltage output from the pannel as we lifted the frequency.

The setup is now running at a top frequency of 74KHz.
The diference between the input and output meters is very large now.
But it seems that that is what the ma draw would be with those LED's running at 4 volt's.

I tried my analog meter ,and that read about 2ma less than the DMM.
Another thing i noticed when i changed the 10nf cap to a 2.2nf cap on the SG,is it now draws 32ma from the battery with nothing conected to the output of the SG ?.
The SG as it is seems to be a fairly inefficient unit.
Maybe a better one could be made.Something that covers from 30KHz to 100KHz.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v7MbkgMehNQ

TK was using Ultraviolet LED's. I'm not sure you can really track the brightness very well on those.
I had built a 555 square wave gen a couple weeks ago that was hitting over 500 KHz. I think they say 1 MHz is max but usually anything over 300 KHz is difficult to achieve. There are a whole lot of circuits out there for the 555 but got mine from an old radio shack engineers book.

e2matrix · « **Reply #95 on:** January 14, 2013, 08:12:33 PM »

Quote from: gotoluc on January 14, 2013, 05:21:50 PM

Hi TinMan,

Thank you for sharing your interesting effect.

Wouldn't a CMOS version of a 555 timer not be more efficient and also capable of higher frequency?

Luc

Yes - the CMOS version would be much lower power if you want to measure power from the battery instead of output from the FG. But there is also a super low power timer chip gadgetmall has mentioned a couple times elsewhere that makes even the 555 CMOS version look like a power hog. I'll have to dig around here a little to find it. I think you can even get free samples of it from the source.
Here it is: Touchstone Semiconductor’s TS3001 and TS3002 are the easiest to use, lowest power timers on the planet. Set the frequency with just a resistor (TS3001), or a resistor and a capacitor (TS3002) Use about 1 volt at 1 microamp.
http://touchstonesemi.com/products/timers?gclid=CKbq8fvG6LQCFQioPAod0iAApQ

I'm not sure though if it can put out enough power to drive what you have here but they are cheap enough it might be interesting to try.

gyulasun · « **Reply #96 on:** January 14, 2013, 08:45:47 PM »

Quote from: e2matrix on January 14, 2013, 08:12:33 PM

....
http://touchstonesemi.com/products/timers?gclid=CKbq8fvG6LQCFQioPAod0iAApQ

I'm not sure though if it can put out enough power to drive what you have here but they are cheap enough it might be interesting to try.

Yes, from the data sheet the recommended supply voltage is 1.8V for this timer so you would have to use an amplifier with level shifter to have the usual output voltage or driving power levels you got used to with the 555 family.
The CMOS version of the 555 (LMC555 or TLC555) is compatible in everything to the bipolar NE555 type, including pin-out too. And their frequency can go up indeed to 2.5 - 3 MHz.

Gyula

e2matrix · « **Reply #97 on:** January 14, 2013, 09:17:54 PM »

Quote from: gyulasun on January 14, 2013, 08:45:47 PM

Yes, from the data sheet the recommended supply voltage is 1.8V for this timer so you would have to use an amplifier with level shifter to have the usual output voltage or driving power levels you got used to with the 555 family.
The CMOS version of the 555 (LMC555 or TLC555) is compatible in everything to the bipolar NE555 type, including pin-out too. And their frequency can go up indeed to 2.5 - 3 MHz.

Gyula

Thanks Gyula, After I looked at the specs I realized it would not likely work here unless microcurrents are somehow able to tap something very unusual. I can't find the message thread right now where gadgetmall mentioned this but I think he said he was lighting some LED's with this chip and a 1.2 volt NiMH. Not sure though - just my vague recollection....

e2matrix · « **Reply #98 on:** January 14, 2013, 10:37:12 PM »

Posted by 'tika' on EF and appears relevant about the Tesla bifilar pancake here:
"Electrically, the coil can be seen as a parallel RLC circuit:

Code:
---------+--------+--------+
| | |
/ S ____
R \ L S _C__
/ S |
| | |
---------+--------+--------+
Note that contrary to a series RLC circuit, this arrangement will show a peak in impedance at its resonance frequency. This is due to the dual relationship of electrical circuits, which causes the effects measured on voltages in series circuit to be measured in the currents of the corresponding parallel circuit.

In the series circuit, large voltages spikes can be measured across the coil and across the cap when the circuit is fed an AC voltage. Which means that
in the parallel circuit large currents spikes will exist in the LC loop. Large current in the coil will bring about a very strong magnetic field. This oscillatory current and its induced magnetic field will peak at the resonant frequency, where impedance is at its highest, and thus input power is at the lowest possible for the circuit. Free real power!

It is impossible to measure current inside a bifilar coil, as this is happening on the entire length of the spires. But there is no radiant energy or 4th dimension magical vortex here. Just down to earth great engineering, like all of Tesla's inventions.

Hope this will help understand better why we are seeing this excess power and how we can get even more out of it. I predict that will be at the resonant frequency for the coil."

TinselKoala · « **Reply #99 on:** January 14, 2013, 11:03:25 PM »

Quote from: conradelektro on January 14, 2013, 05:10:45 PM

@tinman and TinselKoala:

May be I am totally stupid, but I do not get the point? What are you two trying to show? In case you have the time and patience, could you explain in layman terms?

If anyone around here is totally stupid, it is not you. You've demonstrated your competence many times and I think you are well respected for your knowledge and skills.

What am I trying to show? Pretty much what I always do when I start soldering stuff together: That as a thing is viewed, so it appears.

That is, I first try to "replicate" (how I hate that word) or reproduce the actual phenomenology, the effects noted by the original experimenter. Then I try to find the reasons that the effects are seen. If there are errors in experimental procedure, data collection, interpretation of results, and/or conclusions drawn, I hope to be able to identify those errors and hopefully correct them.

Along the way, I am hoping to fill in gaps in knowledge: both my own, and those of others.

Especially, if bogus or extravagant claims are being made, I hope to be able to point those out and explain, and illustrate or demonstrate if I can, why and how those claims are in error.

I also am trying hard to use up this 9.35-pound spool of #27 magnet wire that I've had kicking around for twelve years in my lab.

So far, I've wound several TC secondaries, a bunch of Bedini motor coils, some Tesla bifilar coils, a bunch of JT coils and toroids and etc.... and I still have over seven pounds left !!

Quote

The circuit and your measurements do not make any sense to me. But this is not surprising, because I am not an electronics specialist. I really would like to understand the gist of it and why you get excited about your measurements?

I am not criticizing, I am just curious and confused.

Greetings, Conrad

Well, we are hopefully all trying to figure out what the measurements mean and how they arise. Since these kinds of measurements are often used by free energy claimants, I personally think it's important to understand how people can fool themselves and what the consequences can be. I'm also interested in improving scoposcopy skills and in showing that digital equipment is not _always_ better than analog kit properly used. I think a lot of people using low-end digital and/or computer-based oscilloscopes would be much better off using cheaper, surplus analog scopes and studying how to interpret them properly, rather than relying on the digital "numbers in boxes" that the digital equipment spits out.

Further, as far as I am aware, Tinman hasn't made any extravagant claims about these circuits ..... there is nothing here to "debunk", just interesting phenomena to explore. Some may find this exploration not of interest, boring and old-hat .... good for them, they may know more than I do and don't need to read .99's or MileHigh's excellent explanations or see my dead-bug efforts at reproducing measurements and apparatus.

Finally... I have the feeling that these tests are only preliminary "practice" for something perhaps more interesting to come, and I'm eager to find out what that might be.

TinselKoala · « **Reply #100 on:** January 14, 2013, 11:19:17 PM »

Quote from: e2matrix on January 14, 2013, 10:37:12 PM

Posted by 'tika' on EF and appears relevant about the Tesla bifilar pancake here:
"Electrically, the coil can be seen as a parallel RLC circuit:

Code:
---------+--------+--------+
| | |
/ S ____
R \ L S _C__
/ S |
| | |
---------+--------+--------+
Note that contrary to a series RLC circuit, this arrangement will show a peak in impedance at its resonance frequency. This is due to the dual relationship of electrical circuits, which causes the effects measured on voltages in series circuit to be measured in the currents of the corresponding parallel circuit.

In the series circuit, large voltages spikes can be measured across the coil and across the cap when the circuit is fed an AC voltage. Which means that
in the parallel circuit large currents spikes will exist in the LC loop. Large current in the coil will bring about a very strong magnetic field. This oscillatory current and its induced magnetic field will peak at the resonant frequency, where impedance is at its highest, and thus input power is at the lowest possible for the circuit. Free real power!

It is impossible to measure current inside a bifilar coil, as this is happening on the entire length of the spires. But there is no radiant energy or 4th dimension magical vortex here. Just down to earth great engineering, like all of Tesla's inventions.

Hope this will help understand better why we are seeing this excess power and how we can get even more out of it. I predict that will be at the resonant frequency for the coil."

Good stuff and bad stuff all mixed together in there. Reactive power is _not_ real power, not excess power, not "free real power". Voltage rise through standing wave resonance can be astounding, as any Tesla coiler knows, but is relatively meaningless, even if spectacular. But if the coil's resonant frequency is _also_ at the resonant frequency of some power source or storage in the environment, _maybe_ some of this external power can be entrained into the experimenter's circuit. This is the Holy Grail of sorts, and seems to be what Tesla believed was possible, using what we today would call low frequencies and high initiating voltages--- frequencies and voltages that require physically large apparatus and considerable expertise (to avoid killing oneself) and are thus out of reach of the typical experimenter we might encounter on these forums. Can you imagine harnessing the energy of a lightning bolt, on your workbench?
Lately I am starting to wonder if the opposite might be true, also or instead .... extremely high frequencies (THz), very low initial energies, tickling and teasing Nature instead of brute-forcing her to cooperate...... but unfortunately these realms are also out of reach of the average garage experimenter with ordinary equipment.

So now you know where my own particular "woo" beliefs are founded, and some of why I haunt these pages.

TinselKoala · « **Reply #101 on:** January 14, 2013, 11:28:22 PM »

Quote from: e2matrix on January 14, 2013, 08:03:30 PM

TK was using Ultraviolet LED's. I'm not sure you can really track the brightness very well on those.
I had built a 555 square wave gen a couple weeks ago that was hitting over 500 KHz. I think they say 1 MHz is max but usually anything over 300 KHz is difficult to achieve. There are a whole lot of circuits out there for the 555 but got mine from an old radio shack engineers book.

That is right about the UV LEDs and visual brightness impressions, no argument there from me.

Also right about the limitations of the 555 FGs, in whatever version of the 555 one wants to use. (But don't forget that you can use your low output 555 generator to trigger external power amplifiers made from mosfets or bipolar transistors to give whatever output power you need, as well as driving simple frequency doubler stages for higher frequencies.)

The oscilloscope and the function generator are the basic building blocks of any electronics lab setup, and do not need to be fancy digital kit at all, to be very useful. (Although some of the digital synthesised FGs that are available now for relatively little money are making me drool with desire and envy.) A basic 3 MHz FG that will be a lot more versatile and capable than any simple 555 timer circuit can be had, new, for under 200 dollars, and if you are willing to spend 4 or 5 hundred you can have real state-of-art kit for freqs under 20 MHz.

conradelektro · « **Reply #102 on:** January 14, 2013, 11:37:10 PM »

Thank you TinselKoala, I get it.

Once an electronics engineer told me that "measurment technique" is the most difficult area in his science. And whenever I try measurements in my experiments and when I see some crude OU claims I am reminded of that.

The claim in connection with tinman's circuit is not crude, it seems to be a subtle measurement problem. Electrodynamics is the high ground.

I recently bought this book about electrodynamics (it is supposed to be a standard book for electronics students in the German language)

http://www.amazon.com/Elektrodynamik-Einf%C3%BChrung-Experiment-Theorie-Springer-Lehrbuch/dp/3540214585/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1358202583&sr=8-3&keywords=Brandt+Dahmen

and it scares me. Them swinging things are not as simple as one thinks.

Greetings, Conrad

tinman · « **Reply #103 on:** January 14, 2013, 11:47:38 PM »

Quote from: poynt99 on January 14, 2013, 05:11:27 PM

Thanks for the coil values tinman.

I'll plug those into the sim when I get home tonight.

btw, how did you measure your coil capacitance of 50pF?

Hi poynt99
I measured the 50pF by simply placing my meter probes on either end of the coil-it read 49.47pF.
Maybe a meter error? as im not sure how a shorted coil could have any capacitance when idle.
Im guessing that would change when a pulsed current is sent through it.

Now the other thing i would like to know is a bit more on phase shift.
If we have a certain voltage over a set resistance,dose that not give us current value?
I ask because i find it hard to understand how you could have a voltage across a resistor if there is no current?
Also the frequency isnt realy that high in reguards to what we can obtain these days.

poynt99 · « **Reply #104 on:** January 15, 2013, 02:47:06 AM »

Quote from: tinman on January 14, 2013, 11:47:38 PM

Hi poynt99
I measured the 50pF by simply placing my meter probes on either end of the coil-it read 49.47pF.
Maybe a meter error? as im not sure how a shorted coil could have any capacitance when idle.
Im guessing that would change when a pulsed current is sent through it.

This most likely didn't give you a correct measurement. You are right, you can not measure capacitance across a coil. My Tonghui TH2821A impedance meter shows a negative capacitance while trying to measure an inductor, and vice versa when trying to measure a capacitor on inductance. I think 1n-3nF is probably more in line with your coil's capacitance. But no problem, as the parallel cap value does not make much if any difference in my sim under the conditions I have. 4.22mH did not give as good results though as 150uH.

Quote

Now the other thing i would like to know is a bit more on phase shift.
If we have a certain voltage over a set resistance,dose that not give us current value?
I ask because i find it hard to understand how you could have a voltage across a resistor if there is no current?
Also the frequency isnt realy that high in reguards to what we can obtain these days.

Of course, if you can measure the voltage directly across the resistor, and the resistor is non-inductive, you will have its true current. Don't worry so much about the phase shift in this circuit, as I don't believe it is having that much effect on the results you are seeing actually.

Are you still puzzled why the LED's have more power than the other diodes? I have addressed that here:
http://www.overunity.com/13244/electron-reversing-device/msg350752/#msg350752

The inductor has helped "pull" energy from the FG/battery and is releasing most of that energy to the LED's.

Have you ever encountered the infamous capacitor to capacitor discharge (energy transfer) experiment? If done so through a wire or resistor, half of the energy is lost during the transfer. If done so through a large inductance of very high Q factor, the transfer of energy from the source cap to the charge cap can be done almost without any loss.

Your circuit is doing a similar thing because of the coil inductance. If you remove the coil, the current will be identical in the diodes and LED's. When you introduce the coil as you have, it receives some energy from the FG/battery, and passes it on to the LED's.

Now for fun, try a thought experiment; remove the coil. Now, which component, the diodes or LED's will be dissipating more power, or will they be the same? Why?

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Author Topic: Electron Reversing Device (Read 82812 times)

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