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Author Topic: Electron Reversing Device  (Read 67281 times)

Offline poynt99

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Re: Electron Reversing Device
« Reply #45 on: January 12, 2013, 04:23:46 PM »
tinman,

Again, it's difficult to visualize what you are doing without a schematic of the setup, including the meters.

Is the attached diagram accurate for this latest test?

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Re: Electron Reversing Device
« Reply #45 on: January 12, 2013, 04:23:46 PM »

Offline tinman

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Re: Electron Reversing Device
« Reply #46 on: January 12, 2013, 04:49:46 PM »
tinman,

Again, it's difficult to visualize what you are doing without a schematic of the setup, including the meters.

Is the attached diagram accurate for this latest test?

Hi poynt99
No that diagram is incorrect.
I will draw one up as soon as i can,but i have eliminated the DMM's now.
In this video i use only resistors of the same value,and measure the voltage across them with the scope.
The circuit is very simple now.
All current must now pass through the resistor on the input side.
I have two more resistors of the same value across each output to the LED's

There are no cap's in the circuit now,and the BPC is hooked to ground and high side LED.
Let me know what you see in the scope shots in this video.I see a very interesting effect happening here,in that we can carry the negative current over into the next positive pulse-thus increasing the voltage across the resistor.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmBUQCh9uPE

Offline poynt99

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Re: Electron Reversing Device
« Reply #47 on: January 12, 2013, 05:48:48 PM »
OK tinman,

I await your complete schematic with the resistors, at which time I'll try to comment.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Electron Reversing Device
« Reply #47 on: January 12, 2013, 05:48:48 PM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Electron Reversing Device
« Reply #48 on: January 12, 2013, 09:56:22 PM »
Hmm....
OK, I'm not awake yet, but I can see that the oscillator has the same asymmetries that my "deadbug" build of it has, so at least I'm somewhat encouraged that I put it together properly.

However I was not pleased with the frequency range or control, using the only 500K pot I could find in my stash, a PCB trimpot. So I changed this pot for a 50K, 10-turn, Spectrol brand linear precision potentiometer, and I put some more capacitance in the 0.01 uF timing cap to compensate, by putting 22 nF in parallel, for 0.032 uF total. Now I can cover a range of about 400 Hz up to a bit over 8 kHz with much better adjustability. The brightness of the LEDs is better at higher frequencies, but I wanted to still be able to reach the 550-600 Hz range, so I sacrificed the HF end by using the larger timing cap.

Tinman's reported a capacitance measurement on his TB coil of around 50 pf..... but I can't get a good capacitance reading on either one of my flat TB coils with either my ProsKit cheapo LCR meter, or my Fluke 83 DMM. Both of these meters are nice and accurate when measuring marked commercial capacitors. When I break the center tap and measure the two adjacent windings on the 685 uHy coil without them being connected together I get around 2 nF.
(Incidentally this coil will light an LED, _even with the center tap open_ , when it picks up the EM from another TB coil driven at the right freq range.)

I've got some disagreements with some of the comments TM is getting on the video, but that's to be expected.....   ;D

I haven't done any current testing with TM's  new setup yet. I think I know how it's set up from the verbal description but I'm also looking forward to seeing the exact schematic.




Offline MileHigh

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Re: Electron Reversing Device
« Reply #49 on: January 13, 2013, 11:09:56 AM »
Tinman:

Without a schematic one simply can't discuss what you are demonstrating in your clips.  Many people try to discuss circuits without schematics and it's simply wrong so we look forward to seeing your schematic.

Some people on your other forum are offering crazy far-fetched explanations of how your circuit runs, there is one person in particular.  I assume that you have the good sense to ignore that.

MileHigh

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Re: Electron Reversing Device
« Reply #49 on: January 13, 2013, 11:09:56 AM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: Electron Reversing Device
« Reply #50 on: January 13, 2013, 11:42:20 AM »
Here is the schematic for the latest mod.As you can see now,the circuit is very simple.
I have included my latest test results on the schematic.
Now as simple as it may be,i cant see why meters 3&4 read higher than meter's 1&2.

My only thought is that part of the circuit (marked in green box)is a current trap?
I do have a theroy as to what is happening here,but i will await your thoughts first,as there may be a simple explination im just no seeing.

I would also like to know how to lift the frequency up on the SG.Is it a simple matter of reducing the .01 cap?
The reason is that the current in starts to drop rapidly toward the high end of the frequency,and the current at the led's go's up.But i have reached the limit of frequency,so i need to get it higher.

http://i1136.photobucket.com/albums/n492/duneraider69/circuittest5_zpsd5f15c9d.jpg

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Electron Reversing Device
« Reply #51 on: January 13, 2013, 02:47:22 PM »
Yes, by lowering the value of the 0.01 uF cap (10 nF nominal, mine was 11 nF) you will raise the frequency. By going from about 11 nF down to 7 nF I've raised up to about 35 kHz (this is at the lowest resistance setting of the Freq pot). But your low end will rise too. The good news (?) is that the waveform is more symmetrical in voltage and duty cycle at the higher frequencies.
I'm now using a 50k, 10 turn pot instead of the 500k.  With 50k and 7 nF my low end is about 1400 Hz and my high end is about 35 kHz.

Also, there's no need to upload an image file to a filesite if you have it locally on your computer, you can just include it as an attachment to your post and it will appear inline. Like this:

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Electron Reversing Device
« Reply #51 on: January 13, 2013, 02:47:22 PM »
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Offline poynt99

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Re: Electron Reversing Device
« Reply #52 on: January 13, 2013, 03:16:35 PM »
While we're at it, here is the FG schematic.

Offline poynt99

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Re: Electron Reversing Device
« Reply #53 on: January 13, 2013, 03:20:22 PM »
tinman,

So you're back to the meters, ok.

Why did you move the coil connection? Does it not produce similar results with it connected to the high side above m4?

ETA: I'd be curious also if you could replace the two LEDs with diodes and achieve the same effect. In addition, will any other "standard" air-core coil produce a similar result?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Electron Reversing Device
« Reply #53 on: January 13, 2013, 03:20:22 PM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: Electron Reversing Device
« Reply #54 on: January 13, 2013, 03:47:12 PM »
Hi Poynt99

I tried all three location's.
Keeping one leg of the coil on ground,and placing one leg on the common rail of m3 and m4-i gain about 6ma on both meter's.
If i place the leg between m3 and the LED,it kills all output and the input meters go high(a short)
But when i place the coil between m4 and the LED i gain about 15ma on each meter?
As the meter shunts are only 1.5 ohm's on the ma setting,i am at a loss as to why i get such a big difference.
I also cant work out why m3 and m4 dont read the same as m1 and m2?

As you would have seen in my last video,there is a carry over of current on the high side into the low side pulse(the probe and ground were the wrong way around when i did the test)

Now i did concider that i have m3 and m4 hooked in series,and we are seeing a double of the current we actualy have.
But three things tell me this cant be.
1-the diode's-being the LED's
2-both positive lead's of the DMM's are hooked together,but one show's a negative current and one a positive current.
So one must be reading the high side and one the low side.
3-if they were in series,then we would see 0 current flow,as they would be reading both the high side and low side-as we seen on  the input side when we first started testing.

So i have just plain run out of answer's

Oh and thanks for the tip on the pic's TK

Offline tinman

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Re: Electron Reversing Device
« Reply #55 on: January 13, 2013, 03:55:40 PM »
tinman,

So you're back to the meters, ok.

Why did you move the coil connection? Does it not produce similar results with it connected to the high side above m4?

ETA: I'd be curious also if you could replace the two LEDs with diodes and achieve the same effect. In addition, will any other "standard" air-core coil produce a similar result?
I will try the diode's and different coils tomorow.
I do have a couple of primaries and secondaries out of some mots.
I also have some air coils from some old pulse motor builds.

So i'll give them a try,and see what happen's.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Electron Reversing Device
« Reply #55 on: January 13, 2013, 03:55:40 PM »
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Offline e2matrix

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Re: Electron Reversing Device
« Reply #56 on: January 13, 2013, 07:54:54 PM »
I'm not sure if this has been considered yet but LED's can produce a current depending on the amount of ambient light striking them.   They can actually act as a sort of solar cell.   I'm not sure they would produce as much extra as you are seeing but this scenario could be quickly eliminated by doing a test in the dark and only using a small flashlight to observe the meters. 

Offline poynt99

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Re: Electron Reversing Device
« Reply #57 on: January 13, 2013, 07:58:46 PM »
A neat video from a serious "Tesla" coiler, on how to make one form of pancake coil. This guy has a veritable historical coil museum in his house!

tinman, how did you make yours?

Interesting commentary he has at the 44:20 mark ;)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiCoYs-ojO0

Offline poynt99

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Re: Electron Reversing Device
« Reply #58 on: January 13, 2013, 10:59:23 PM »
tinman,

I suspected this had a fairly straightforward explanation, so I PSpiced this up and found what I believe explains the results you are seeing.

Per the schematic, I substituted diodes for your LED's, and used a simple air-core inductor with some small parallel capacitance. I set the FG to a frequency (40kHz) that appears to be a sub-harmonic of the coil's resonant frequency, as you can see by the inductor's current wave form.

On the schematic, you see a green and red current probe, and on the scope01 you see the average of each reading. The average current in the "output" side is a full 75% higher than what the "input" side is reading.

You may recall that voltages and currents can be greatly amplified in resonant tank circuits, and I believe that is what we are seeing here. The amplified current is being reflected in the output side diodes as they form a secondary loop with the inductor/capacitor tank.

Although the current may be greatly magnified, the power or energy is not, due to phase changes between the voltage and current through the output diodes.

So I would say that we've just confirmed a tank circuit can be used to amplify either voltage or current, and that this can catch us sometimes.

Anyway I might be wrong, but to my mind, if I can show something similar using PSpice, there can't be anything too exotic going on. :)

.99

Offline e2matrix

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Re: Electron Reversing Device
« Reply #59 on: January 13, 2013, 11:14:58 PM »
I've said it before and I know you don't like to hear this but Sims are only good for the known.   What we are seeking and what may be going on here is the unknown.  Something new.   While a sim may explain what's going on here I don't like to think someone will stop experimenting in the real world with a circuit just because a sim says there can't be anything out of the ordinary there.   Just my short rant in case anyone is considering limiting their thinking a sim   :P 

 

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