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Author Topic: Electron Reversing Device  (Read 58207 times)

Offline tinman

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Re: Electron Reversing Device
« Reply #30 on: January 10, 2013, 02:09:42 PM »
Hi TK
Well i live on the coast of western Australia,so we dont quit hit 50c.
But we often get to 45c in summer,but when you live with it all your life-you get use to it.
Then on the other end of the scale,in winter we can often go below 0c.
No snow here,just ice.

This dosnt realy have anything to do with the circuit,but it was something else i found interesting reguarding a BPC.
And i also put forth a question in reguard to reading the current flow in both directions,useing two diodes in opposite directions off the positive input.Then hooking 1 DMM to each diode to measure the current flow in both diections.We then add the two amounts together to get our total current amount.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmR_Sqw7wv0

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Re: Electron Reversing Device
« Reply #30 on: January 10, 2013, 02:09:42 PM »

Online ramset

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Re: Electron Reversing Device
« Reply #31 on: January 10, 2013, 02:18:01 PM »
TM
Quote
But the thing i need you to understand is this-in no way do i claim any OU from this circuit.
What i am doing is sharing something i found to be interesting.
 
------------------
Well apparently you are not alone in your "curious" observation,I personally feel your worth your weight in Gold to this community !
 
Sometimes Providence brings Men together to ponder a problem or  curiousity,These moments can be Fleeting or be part of Much bigger "events".
 
It is This "Event" we work towards.And what you do here brings us Closer!
you set a good example .[as always as far as I can tell?]
 
Thank you
Chet
PS
I also hope you do not suffer from that heat wave .

Offline poynt99

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Re: Electron Reversing Device
« Reply #32 on: January 10, 2013, 02:49:52 PM »
And i also put forth a question in reguard to reading the current flow in both directions,useing two diodes in opposite directions off the positive input.Then hooking 1 DMM to each diode to measure the current flow in both diections.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AmR_Sqw7wv0
Apparently you did not see this post tinman:
http://www.overunity.com/13234/welcome-to-understanding-overunity/msg350306/#msg350306

I have reproduced the diagram here for you.

Quote
We then add the two amounts together to get our total current amount.
This is incorrect. The correct procedure to obtain the average current supplied by the FG is to take the absolute value of each reading (convert the negative current to positive), add them together, then divide by 2. As follows:

IFG(avg) = (|Ipos| + |Ineg|)/2

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Re: Electron Reversing Device
« Reply #32 on: January 10, 2013, 02:49:52 PM »
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Offline poynt99

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Re: Electron Reversing Device
« Reply #33 on: January 10, 2013, 03:05:18 PM »
Ok to answer some question's
First up,i make no claims of any type,other than what i see is something i havnt seen befor.
Relax mates, I've not alluded that you have made any claims.

Quote
So a question of my own would be-if the current is changing direction(as it is) then why do the meters not read in AC insted of DC?
At a guess i would think this could be due to the wave shape itself,in that the meters must see a sign wave and not a square wave to read in AC mode.
By all means try it on ACmA. You won't get an accurate reading unless your meter is true rms, but you will get a much more meaningful reading than what you have on DCmA.

Quote
Now the r3,150uf cap and diode are not for any operational purpose of the circuit.As mentioned in one of the video's,it is for a voltage reference point only.This tells me how much voltage the circuit is running on.The diode loss must also be added to that voltage>in my case it is +.5 volts for those diodes.
I don't quite understand this. Why can't you measure across the FG output?

Quote
Although the FG may be useing so many miliamps at 12 volt's,that is not what the circuit in question is useing.
If you were to measure the average battery current, this would give you a pretty good idea what the circuit in question is using, less 5mA or so for the FG itself.

You should post the original schematic for the FG. It appears you deleted a line or two that is required to show proper operation.

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Offline tinman

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Re: Electron Reversing Device
« Reply #34 on: January 10, 2013, 03:17:57 PM »
Apparently you did not see this post tinman:
http://www.overunity.com/13234/welcome-to-understanding-overunity/msg350306/#msg350306

I have reproduced the diagram here for you.
This is incorrect. The correct procedure to obtain the average current supplied by the FG is to take the absolute value of each reading (convert the negative current to positive), add them together, then divide by 2. As follows:

IFG(avg) = (|Ipos| + |Ineg|)/2
Well i guess the only answer i have as to why i missed that post is that i thought anything related to this circuit would be posted here on the thread about the circuit.
But looking at your diagram,it seems that we agree on how to measure each flow of current.
But yes,i did overlook the fact that it must be devided by two for a full cycle current average.
With the meters hooked like i was going to hook them up,then we would not have to convert negative current to positive current.If you flip your bottom meter around(reverse the polarities)then both meters will read a positive current flow.
 In reguards to your question in your next post-I don't quite understand this. Why can't you measure across the FG output?
Well my meters just wont read a voltage that is going high then low,so i collect the peak to peak voltage and store it in the 150uf cap,so as i have a stable voltage to read.
I then placed my scope across the output of the FG output,and make sure the cap is correct.But we must remember to add the voltage loss from the diode aswell to that cap voltage-and this will vary slightly depending on what diodes you use ofcourse.

I would also like to say thanks for the help and input you have given so far-its been a great help

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Re: Electron Reversing Device
« Reply #34 on: January 10, 2013, 03:17:57 PM »
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Offline poynt99

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Re: Electron Reversing Device
« Reply #35 on: January 10, 2013, 03:25:32 PM »
Well my meters just wont read a voltage that is going high then low,so i collect the peak to peak voltage and store it in the 150uf cap,so as i have a stable voltage to read.
I then placed my scope across the output of the FG output,and make sure the cap is correct.But we must remember to add the voltage loss from the diode aswell to that cap voltage-and this will vary slightly depending on what diodes you use ofcourse.
Ah ok, now I understand. You are reading the positive peak voltage. ;)

Quote
I would also like to say thanks for the help and input you have given so far-its been a great help
You're welcome. I hope my long post explaining things made sense to you?

ETA: If you leave the bottom meter as shown, you can easily see which current is the negative one, then just flip it's polarity in your head for your computation. It would be interesting to see which current is higher in amplitude and which is lower...don't you agree?

Offline tinman

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Re: Electron Reversing Device
« Reply #36 on: January 10, 2013, 03:48:51 PM »
Ah ok, now I understand. You are reading the positive peak voltage. ;)
You're welcome. I hope my long post explaining things made sense to you?

ETA: If you leave the bottom meter as shown, you can easily see which current is the negative one, then just flip it's polarity in your head for your computation. It would be interesting to see which current is higher in amplitude and which is lower...don't you agree?
I do agree with you on that,so i will leave the meters as you have them depicted when i do my test.

Now here is the untouched schematic for the FG.
As you will see,i only removed the switch and line for the sawtooth wave side of thing's.
So this would in no way change the square wave operation.
The circuit is just a cheapy from jaycar-probably made in china.
But it dose what i wanted it to do for the time being.

(http://i1136.photobucket.com/albums/n492/duneraider69/Unmodifiedwavegenerator_zps5a9fde6e.jpg)

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Re: Electron Reversing Device
« Reply #36 on: January 10, 2013, 03:48:51 PM »
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Offline poynt99

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Re: Electron Reversing Device
« Reply #37 on: January 10, 2013, 04:04:41 PM »
OK, that FG circuit now makes more sense.

You were right, there was no effect with the parts you removed from the schematic. The sqaure wave output is from the normal pin 3 of the 555.

For the "sawtooth" output, they are simply buffering the timing cap wave form....not very effective, but an interesting and simple idea. It will look like a curved sawtooth, more than a linear one.

Offline poynt99

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Re: Electron Reversing Device
« Reply #38 on: January 11, 2013, 05:00:43 AM »
tinman,

When I explained the correct method of computing the average FG current, I was thinking in terms of measuring this with an o-scope, then performing the computation using both peak currents. I made an error here because you will actually be using two separate meters to measure the two separate currents, negative and positive.

So for this method, you were right. You will simply add the two currents together. Why? Because with a 50% duty cycle, the meters will be averaging each polarity of current separately. So for example, if we have +40mA and -50mA (peak), the two meters will actually indicate +20mA and -25mA (average) respectively. Add them together and you have the correct 45mA average current.

Sorry for any confusion.

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Re: Electron Reversing Device
« Reply #38 on: January 11, 2013, 05:00:43 AM »
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Offline tinman

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Re: Electron Reversing Device
« Reply #39 on: January 11, 2013, 11:47:34 AM »
tinman,

When I explained the correct method of computing the average FG current, I was thinking in terms of measuring this with an o-scope, then performing the computation using both peak currents. I made an error here because you will actually be using two separate meters to measure the two separate currents, negative and positive.

So for this method, you were right. You will simply add the two currents together. Why? Because with a 50% duty cycle, the meters will be averaging each polarity of current separately. So for example, if we have +40mA and -50mA (peak), the two meters will actually indicate +20mA and -25mA (average) respectively. Add them together and you have the correct 45mA average current.

Sorry for any confusion.
Now poynt99-your adding confusion to my confusion lol.
But on a more serious note,my first thought's were as you just stated above.
As we were not long ago talking about the meters averaging current,it made sence to me that we add the two together.
But when you posted your comment about deviding by 2,that also made sence.
As it is a square wave that is either on or off for half a cycle,i thought the meters might read the peak current of that half cycle-so your comment about /2 made sence aswell.
But i was comeing back to put forth my original thought of adding the two together,as there would be a 0 current draw on the meters for half a cycle-so the meter would average between peak and 0 current draw.
But i see you beat me to it-so we are on the same page now.

I think this is one situation where people can get fooled into thinking they have something OU.
If we had of gone for the devide by 2,we could have been making that very error we try to eliminate-and we could of had an OU machine that wasnt OU.

I will put the scope across the meter,as i know the shunt on ma is 1.5 ohm's.This should tell us exactly how accurate our meters are,and what they are reading.

But for my first input-output measurments,i will add the two DMM readings together and use that figure as a starting point.
This will give us a close indication as to how much more we have to get out of the circuit to get to where we want to be.
It may even tell us that there is nothing in the circuit at all aswell.

Offline tinman

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Re: Electron Reversing Device
« Reply #40 on: January 11, 2013, 04:13:12 PM »
poynt.99-and all.

I made a couple of changes to the circuit tonight,and not to much changed-until i added those two blocking diodes on the positive input to take current measurements(as drawn by poynt.99)

After much testing useing the scope aswell as the meter's,im getting result's im finding hard to believe.

I will upload the video tomorow so as you guy's can let me know what you see.

Cheers

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Re: Electron Reversing Device
« Reply #40 on: January 11, 2013, 04:13:12 PM »
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Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Electron Reversing Device
« Reply #41 on: January 11, 2013, 09:14:41 PM »
Hmmm.... I guess I'm falling behind.   ???

I cobbled together the oscillator circuit from the schematic posted (as usual, I redrew it, hopefully without errors). I had to use a 2n2222a transistor (which is probably irrelevant) and I used a 1K instead of the 820R specified. The circuit as I built it is specified below, along with some representative scopeshots.

The oscillator, unloaded, makes not very symmetrical pulses, the duty cycle isn't 50 percent and the voltages aren't symmetrical around zero. But when loaded by hooking to the LED board it evens out quite a bit. The scopeshots below are taken directly across the TB coil. The most symmetrical squareish waveforms are happening at the highest frequency it puts out, and at lower frequencies the waveforms look very much like what I see using my FG with accurately symmetrical output settings for both duty cycle and voltages.

I have not yet done any current measurements using this new oscillator board. The frequency range is from 135 Hz to about 27 kHz at the extreme settings of the freq pot, measured with the Philips PM6676 and confirmed by manual computation from the scope. The best symmetry and best LED light output happen with the "level" pot turned all the way up and the "freq" pot at the highest freq setting.

FWIW.....




Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Electron Reversing Device
« Reply #42 on: January 11, 2013, 10:19:52 PM »
OK..... I made a video showing how to determine the inductance of an unknown inductor by making a tank circuit with a good capacitor of known value, driving the tank at its resonant frequency, determining this frequency, and then using an on-line calculator to crunch the numbers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alkfoX62Na0

I think that the TinMan oscillator can cover the frequency range necessary to cover most bifilar coils we might use, and of course everyone knows how to calculate frequency from an analog scope display. Right? 
 ;)

The online calculator I used is here:

http://www.1728.org/resfreq.htm

Offline tinman

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Re: Electron Reversing Device
« Reply #43 on: January 12, 2013, 10:34:14 AM »
Thanks TK for takeing the time to make that video,i will go and have a look now that my day is almost done.

Ok well i guess i need some help here to determond as to what i have done wrone here?.
I set up the input DMM's as poynt99 drew out in a previous post,wich was also how i was going to do it aswell.

I have placed two more DMM's on the output to the LED's-and well-something is wrong with the measurements some where?
As far as i know and can work out,all the current being consumed by the system has to pass through both input DMM's-there is just no other way for the current to get into the system(that i can see)
And it cant flow back in the wrong direction,as there is blocking diode's there.

So as many of you here are far more experianced than myself in spotting error's-could some one please point out mine?.

Cheers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OulowB7DAHU

Offline tinman

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Re: Electron Reversing Device
« Reply #44 on: January 12, 2013, 01:23:07 PM »
In this test,i removed the DMM's and used a 4.7 ohm resistor on the negative input and on one leg of the output.
These were the lowest value resistors of the same type i had two of.
I turned the voltage up a bit,so as to get a better and clearer reading on the scope.
We seem to get an idication that the meter's were reading correctly if you take into account that we are also disipating power across the LED aswell as the resistor on the output.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OulowB7DAHU

 

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