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Author Topic: Electron Reversing Device  (Read 67314 times)

Offline tinman

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Electron Reversing Device
« on: January 09, 2013, 12:49:12 PM »
I have been asked to start this thread reguarding a circuit i have built that has some interesting effect's.
It is only in it's primary stage of testing,but so far the result's are looking good.

So i invite you aboard to replicate and test as we go along.
I will start by adding a circuit diagram and a couple of video's on my work so far.
The circuit is from TK,and it is how the circuit is set up.
The only thing i use diferent is the two diode's.
I am useing 1n4004's,but these may need to be changed as the frequency get's higher.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYeGUGbmmII
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vdpY0TC64P4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8MjHay5HNHg

And here is the circuit diagram.
(http://i1136.photobucket.com/albums/n492/duneraider69/teslacircuit_zps00003503.png)
« Last Edit: January 09, 2013, 03:00:35 PM by tinman »

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Electron Reversing Device
« on: January 09, 2013, 12:49:12 PM »

Offline poynt99

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Re: Electron Reversing Device
« Reply #1 on: January 09, 2013, 03:53:01 PM »
As a start tinman, could you please state what it is that you believe is the merit of your results?

I've not determined this yet from your posts and videos, but is it that you believe the circuit, when tuned appropriately, provides a source of current back to the battery, in effect charging the battery, or something similar? Do you believe this circuit is somehow exhibiting OU then? Do you believe the LEDs can be illuminated with no energy required from the battery at certain settings?

Please clarify.

Thanks,
.99

Offline onthecuttingedge2005

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Re: Electron Reversing Device
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2013, 04:02:40 PM »
As a start tinman, could you please state what it is that you believe is the merit of your results?

I've not determined this yet from your posts and videos, but is it that you believe the circuit, when tuned appropriately, provides a source of current back to the battery, in effect charging the battery, or something similar? Do you believe this circuit is somehow exhibiting OU then? Do you believe the LEDs can be illuminated with no energy required from the battery at certain settings?

Please clarify.

Thanks,
.99

the word "believe" is not scientific.

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Re: Electron Reversing Device
« Reply #2 on: January 09, 2013, 04:02:40 PM »
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Offline poynt99

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Re: Electron Reversing Device
« Reply #3 on: January 09, 2013, 05:21:37 PM »
the word "believe" is not scientific.

Ah huh. Do you have a point?

Offline poynt99

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Re: Electron Reversing Device
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2013, 05:23:54 PM »
tinman et al,

As I mentioned before, without a proper diagram of the complete setup, you're walking around in the dark. I've taken the liberty and time to do this for you (thanks TK for drawing the bulk of it).

Do you concur that this diagram is correct per your setup?

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Re: Electron Reversing Device
« Reply #4 on: January 09, 2013, 05:23:54 PM »
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Offline poynt99

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Re: Electron Reversing Device
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2013, 05:35:59 PM »
tinman,

What is the purpose of the series 3R, 150uF cap, and diode? Why is this string of components required?

Offline MileHigh

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Re: Electron Reversing Device
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2013, 06:36:09 PM »
Well I think that I can answer the question in TK's clip about why the LEDs get so bright.

When the output of the FG is high that turns on the tree LEDs.

When the output of the FG is low, the three LEDs are off.  At the same time the Tesla pancake coil is being charged up with increasing counter-clockwise current flow.

Then on the transition from low to high of the FG output. for a certain amount of time there are two power sources discharging through the LEDs.  The first source is the FG itself.  The second source is the discharging Tesla pancake coil.  So for a brief time the three LEDs get a "double shot" and thus get very bright.  This is of course do to the fact that the current lags behind the voltage in an inductor.  The "double shot" of current is sufficiently short in time such that the LEDs do not get destroyed.

The rest of the circuit looks more or less like window dressing to me.

I am assuming that the FG has an output impedance of 50 ohms.

Poynt I read your correct comment about the meters averaging zero current flow when the current is bidirectional.  You of course are right and I was also fooled by that.  It's always funny to see yourself being fooled by your own preconceptions and mental laziness.

For Tinman, when you get your new scope the key to understanding this circuit is to understand the timing.  Electronics is all about timing.   In this case the circuit only has two voltage nodes.  Hence the voltage timing diagram is trivial.  The real thing to try to discover using tricks with current sensing resistors is what are the currents in the circuit.  Like I said above, on the rising edge of the FG output, you should see a "bump" in the amount of current going into the tree LEDs.  Can you figure out how to measure that?

If you produced a timing diagram with the voltage output of the FG as the reference, and the various currents going through different branches of the circuit, then the circuit will be explained.   Naturally if you observe different LED brightness for different FG frequencies then a timing diagram for each frequency would be interesting.

Poynt is just a few mouse clicks away from generating a timing diagram using pSpice.  However, it would be a good exercise to derive the timing yourself, and then perhaps later Poynt will generate the pSpice timing diagrams.  For a trivial circuit like this you would expect the two diagrams to be very similar.

MileHigh

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Re: Electron Reversing Device
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2013, 06:36:09 PM »
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Offline e2matrix

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Re: Electron Reversing Device
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2013, 07:42:44 PM »
Since I just wound a Tesla pancake coil a few days ago I'm game to give this a try.  I haven't watched the vid's yet but is it mentioned what frequency to use on the function generator?   
Okay I just started the video and see mention of 530 Hz.  That's interesting as 528 Hz is one of the primary Solfeggio frequencies. 

Offline e2matrix

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Re: Electron Reversing Device
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2013, 08:15:18 PM »
As a start tinman, could you please state what it is that you believe is the merit of your results?

I've not determined this yet from your posts and videos, but is it that you believe the circuit, when tuned appropriately, provides a source of current back to the battery, in effect charging the battery, or something similar? Do you believe this circuit is somehow exhibiting OU then? Do you believe the LEDs can be illuminated with no energy required from the battery at certain settings?

Please clarify.

Thanks,
.99
It appears from simple power in / power out calculations that he is getting more than 2 times more power out than in.   I'm assuming you probably caught that.   Is that not an annomaly worth looking at?   

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Re: Electron Reversing Device
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2013, 08:15:18 PM »
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Offline e2matrix

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Re: Electron Reversing Device
« Reply #9 on: January 09, 2013, 08:41:02 PM »
It appears from simple power in / power out calculations that he is getting more than 2 times more power out than in.   I'm assuming you probably caught that.   Is that not an annomaly worth looking at?    He does state that he is not sure what he has and that's why he is open sourcing it for others to check out.   I think the first thing I would try if I can get it working like his setup is to run things at a higher power input and see if the output is still noticeably more power out than in. 

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: Electron Reversing Device
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2013, 08:44:51 PM »
Thanks, Tinman, for starting the thread.

First let me clear up a mior point: it's my _drawing_ of the circuit, not my circuit. I just redrew the schematic from Tinman's first sketch of it in his video. I always redraw circuits, it helps me to understand what's happening within them, and whenever possible I use the "positive and negative rail" format as I've sketched it; this makes layout of actual components a little easier (but may not always be appropriate for VHF or UHF circuits where actual layout can matter.)

Next.... please let's not get all adversarial right away. I think that Tinman is a careful and logical experimenter and I don't think he's about to go off "half-cocked" with claims of OU unless there is some evidence. I don't believe that he's made any such claims at this point.

Further, there are some "pitfalls" that this circuit illustrates. I've already discovered some interesting things. Did you know that the bifilar pancake coil, for example, can light up an LED even with the "interconnect" OPEN? That is, if you just don't even connect the wire that connects the top of one winding to the bottom of the other winding -- making the coil an open circuit to DC -- you can still light up an LED across the coil's output terminals if the coil is driven by another coil at the appropriate frequencies? I didn't know this until I started experimenting here.
In addition, many modern FGs have the "black" or output shield wire permanently grounded to the instrument chassis and back through the line cord to the mains ground, and most modern bench oscilloscopes have their probe references ("grounds") also connected in this way. This means that it's hard to scope the circuit in several places simultaneously and that one must be careful of ground loops caused by inadvertent placement of ground or reference leads. I was briefly amazed to see full brilliance in the LEDs even when the "black" output from my FG was disconnected.... the scope reference lead was providing the "negative" or Black wire connection back to the FG's output, through the chassis grounds that were interconnected both by the mains line and also by the BNC jumper used to feed the trigger signal from the FG directly to the scope.
Fortunately my Interstate F43 FG allows the user to isolate its output from its chassis ground, so I can power the circuit with the FG and by careful connections I can also scope a different point in the circuit.
Of course with a stand-alone dedicated oscillator as TM uses this is less of a problem, as long as one is aware of the possibility of groundloops. But without fully isolated scope references (like some portable scopes provide) it's not possible to scope the current in both input legs just by putting in CVRs in place of the DMMs and scoping across them, simultaneously, with a single scope, as the probe references (internally connected at the scope chassis) will short out the circuit, and even with two scopes, the probe "grounds" will still be connected through the mains, unless at least one of their mains supplies is fully isolated with an isolation transformer.

This is one reason why I've asked TM to show the circuit of the oscillator board he's using. Just good clear photos of the front and back of the oscillator , along with the component values, would probably be enough for me to trace out the circuit of TM's signal source, and it would be helpful for other experimenters, who may not have FGs that are capable of isolating their outputs.

Ok.... enough of that introduction, and on to some results. I'll be posting a video of some scopeshots later on, but for now, I've done a "quick and dirty" test by interrupting the connection between the 3R>Diode>150uF cap to the rest of the circuit.... and I see no difference in behaviour of the circuit whether or not these components are connected. I'll do more comprehensive testing of this later on. Perhaps TM can also try interrupting this leg of the circuit and see if he gets any differences in behaviour using his setup.

BTW, my pancake coil measures 695 uHy when tested on my ProsKit commercial (but cheap) LCR meter, and reads 685 uHy when my Arduino-based inductometer is used. I've used 1n914 diodes in my initial build but will try 1n4004 diodes today, to compare waveforms, and I've had to build up the cap values out of smaller caps: For the 2200 uF cap I used 2x1000uF and 1x220 uF  16 volt, in parallel, giving 2220 uF, and for the 150 uF I've used a 100 uF and a 47 uF in parallel, also 16 volts. Unfortunately I don't have single caps of the correct values so I am stuck with these.

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Re: Electron Reversing Device
« Reply #10 on: January 09, 2013, 08:44:51 PM »
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Offline poynt99

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Re: Electron Reversing Device
« Reply #11 on: January 09, 2013, 08:46:30 PM »
It appears from simple power in / power out calculations that he is getting more than 2 times more power out than in.   I'm assuming you probably caught that.
No. Please show the calculations.

Quote
Is that not an annomaly worth looking at?
I am asking so as to ascertain what anomaly tinman believes he might have.

At the moment, I do not see any anomaly at all. Would someone care to point it out if there is one?

Offline e2matrix

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Re: Electron Reversing Device
« Reply #12 on: January 09, 2013, 08:57:21 PM »
I just watched Tinsel's vid on this circuit.  Is he around here on this thread or on the JT thread with this?  Anyway is it not very interesting that his current readings went from positive to negative milliamp readings while he was changing the voltage and or frequency?   Yet the LED's stayed on.  How can that be or am I missing something about how strange that seems? 

Offline poynt99

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Re: Electron Reversing Device
« Reply #13 on: January 09, 2013, 09:01:21 PM »
Indeed,

It would seem that all who are discussing this circuit are missing something.

Think!

Offline e2matrix

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Re: Electron Reversing Device
« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2013, 09:29:28 PM »
Well tinman seems fairly sharp on all this and Tinsel Koala is no dummy so how about some hints as to what you think is going on.   Pancake coil picking up power from the environment ?  I don't think it would pick up enough to account for the additional power unless it's resonating something to pull that in.   

 

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