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### Author Topic: 1850 Watts free energy power ? New GEGENE circuit by JL Naudin shows COP = 2.8  (Read 255000 times)

#### vrand

• Full Member
• Posts: 214
##### Re: 1850 Watts free energy power ? New GEGENE circuit by JL Naudin shows COP = 2.8
« Reply #90 on: January 09, 2013, 08:56:25 AM »
yes Romero did the same test but it even was more confusing cause he never posted a circuit diagram and not everybody knows how a grid tie inverter works.....

so is this just some kind of bootstrap effect with the second power meter showing wrong values or why does it show 240 watts more input power ??

The JLN circuit is on his website:
http://jnaudin.free.fr/gegene/gegene13en.htm

The idea with the 500 watt inverter is to feed it from the feedback coil and then let it power the cooker coil. In this test it only supplied the cooker coil with 250 watts, while the grid wall plug supplied 750 watts for a total input of around 1000 watts. So net input is 750 watts.

Output of 1880 watts > than 750 watts input.

Looking good
Cheers

#### TinselKoala

• Hero Member
• Posts: 13958
##### Re: 1850 Watts free energy power ? New GEGENE circuit by JL Naudin shows COP = 2.8
« Reply #91 on: January 09, 2013, 11:26:21 PM »
Where do you get that 1880 Watts output figure from? Doesn't it come from adding up the "box labels" of the halogen light bulbs?

None of the presently-described testing is better than, or invalidates, the coffee-pot calorimetry measurements. There is no evidence that the system is actually putting out 1880 Watts of power; on the contrary, the coffeepot testing shows that the output power is _in fact_ less than the input power. The lightmeter measurements also indicate that the light bulbs are not being supplied with the full power that they are labelled for.

We have two sets of well-performed testing that show unequivocally that the power out to a load is less than the power in. And we have another few sets of measurements that appear to be improperly done and/or interpreted, using DSO and commercial "wattmeters".  And we now have some irrelevant "looping" trials using an underpowered inverter, which itself is not 100 percent efficient. And we of course continue to mistake labels on boxes for actual power measurements.

Or at least some of us do.

• Full Member
• Posts: 164
##### Re: 1850 Watts free energy power ? New GEGENE circuit by JL Naudin shows COP = 2.8
« Reply #92 on: January 10, 2013, 12:11:08 AM »
Where do you get that 1880 Watts output figure from? Doesn't it come from adding up the "box labels" of the halogen light bulbs?

None of the presently-described testing is better than, or invalidates, the coffee-pot calorimetry measurements. There is no evidence that the system is actually putting out 1880 Watts of power; on the contrary, the coffeepot testing shows that the output power is _in fact_ less than the input power. The lightmeter measurements also indicate that the light bulbs are not being supplied with the full power that they are labelled for.

We have two sets of well-performed testing that show unequivocally that the power out to a load is less than the power in. And we have another few sets of measurements that appear to be improperly done and/or interpreted, using DSO and commercial "wattmeters".  And we now have some irrelevant "looping" trials using an underpowered inverter, which itself is not 100 percent efficient. And we of course continue to mistake labels on boxes for actual power measurements.

Or at least some of us do.

Has anyone mentioned 'power factor' yet Sorry, I haven't read 100% of the posts

Not considering PFC would account for these (what I believe are) measurement errors.
An inductive load such as a cheap Chinese (correct me if this induction hob is a high-end, power factor corrected model!!!) induction hob is, by definition, quite inductive - this is going to mean a very low Power Factor. This would give the impression of it consuming more power than its actually converting to useful work.
http://www.energymanagertraining.com/energy_audit_instruments/electrical_measuring/how%20to%20measure%20power%20factor.htm

OP: Check out 'real' and 'apparent' power.

How about measuring the PF and correcting for it (as currently its probably not even legal to connect it to the grid!) then re-measuring. Post the PFC circuit here.

I hope I haven't pis&ed-off the OP with this info although it should save him wasting any more of his valuable time.

Ciao,

MBM

• Full Member
• Posts: 164
##### Re: 1850 Watts free energy power ? New GEGENE circuit by JL Naudin shows COP = 2.8
« Reply #93 on: January 10, 2013, 01:05:17 AM »
Has anyone mentioned 'power factor' yet Sorry, I haven't read 100% of the posts

Not considering PFC would account for these (what I believe are) measurement errors.
An inductive load such as a cheap Chinese (correct me if this induction hob is a high-end, power factor corrected model!!!) induction hob is, by definition, quite inductive - this is going to mean a very low Power Factor. This would give the impression of it consuming more power than its actually converting to useful work.
http://www.energymanagertraining.com/energy_audit_instruments/electrical_measuring/how%20to%20measure%20power%20factor.htm

OP: Check out 'real' and 'apparent' power.

How about measuring the PF and correcting for it (as currently its probably not even legal to connect it to the grid!) then re-measuring. Post the PFC circuit here.

I hope I haven't pis&ed-off the OP with this info although it should save him wasting any more of his valuable time.

Ciao,

MBM

Just read the manual for the watt meters he's using and there is no accuracy mentioned for the PF measurement which is worrying!
If its anything like the kill-a-watt, popular meter like this and in the same price bracket, then its measurement of PF will be dubious...in one review it measured the PF of a kitchen TV at 0.57!

http://www.newark.com/pdfs/techarticles/lambda/IPQPFC.pdf

Incidentally the US PF limit is 0.90 or higher for PF on devices over 75W.

#### hartiberlin

• Hero Member
• Posts: 8055
##### Re: 1850 Watts free energy power ? New GEGENE circuit by JL Naudin shows COP = 2.8
« Reply #94 on: January 10, 2013, 03:17:41 AM »
Laurent has seen some new modulation effects here:

So can anybody explain the EXTRA 240 Watts display of the second
Wattmeter from Naudin ?

Is it just a wrong display, cause the PowerFactor is wrong calculated or
the pulsed input of the cooker does jam the power meter ??

Regards, Stefan.

#### vrand

• Full Member
• Posts: 214
##### Re: 1850 Watts free energy power ? New GEGENE circuit by JL Naudin shows COP = 2.8
« Reply #95 on: January 10, 2013, 06:08:28 AM »

So can anybody explain the EXTRA 240 Watts display of the second
Wattmeter from Naudin ?

Is it just a wrong display, cause the PowerFactor is wrong calculated or
the pulsed input of the cooker does jam the power meter ??

Regards, Stefan.

From JLN circuit diagram the 240 watts display of the second wattmeter is from the second output coil (looks like 2 to 4 turns) that he shows moving on top of his main pancake coil  in the video.

So he has 2 Output coils:
- the main flat pancake coil, output around 1880 watts.
- the large diameter 2 to 4 turns coil, outputs around 240 watts.

Cheers

• Full Member
• Posts: 164
##### Re: 1850 Watts free energy power ? New GEGENE circuit by JL Naudin shows COP = 2.8
« Reply #96 on: January 10, 2013, 08:41:37 AM »
Laurent has seen some new modulation effects here:

So can anybody explain the EXTRA 240 Watts display of the second
Wattmeter from Naudin ?

Is it just a wrong display, cause the PowerFactor is wrong calculated or
the pulsed input of the cooker does jam the power meter ??

Regards, Stefan.

The wattmeters are inaccurate when measuring Watts and unspecified measuring PF (PF is required to be known) - he cannot make ridiculous claims based on these meters without taking into account the potential for measurement error.
What you are seeing will be down to measurement errors.
It's likely to have a low PF which also makes it illegal if lower than 0.90 - correct me if I am wrong!

#### m786

• Newbie
• Posts: 5
##### Re: 1850 Watts free energy power ? New GEGENE circuit by JL Naudin shows COP = 2.8
« Reply #97 on: January 10, 2013, 12:31:32 PM »
Somebody can remember a mustafa device, which is exactly to same as induction heater with feedback coil....

http://freeenergylt.narod2.ru/mustafa007/

#### JouleSeeker

• Hero Member
• Posts: 685
##### Re: 1850 Watts free energy power ? New GEGENE circuit by JL Naudin shows COP = 2.8
« Reply #98 on: January 10, 2013, 06:41:02 PM »
The wattmeters are inaccurate when measuring Watts and unspecified measuring PF (PF is required to be known) - he cannot make ridiculous claims based on these meters without taking into account the potential for measurement error.
What you are seeing will be down to measurement errors.
It's likely to have a low PF which also makes it illegal if lower than 0.90 - correct me if I am wrong!

I doubt that the induction cooker realizes such a low PF; may be wrong.

Question (also to TKoala and others):  Would an "official" utility company power meter give an erroneous reading of the input power to this Gegene device -- if the Gegene were the ONLY thing running on that meter?

• Full Member
• Posts: 164
##### Re: 1850 Watts free energy power ? New GEGENE circuit by JL Naudin shows COP = 2.8
« Reply #99 on: January 10, 2013, 11:22:52 PM »
I doubt that the induction cooker realizes such a low PF; may be wrong.

Here is a quote from a review of one particular model:

"Getting technical for a minute, the one other thing that surprised me concerned the hob's power-factor. The manual correctly states that when on Standby, it only consumes about 1 watt. However due to its low power-factor, it's actually pulling over 150VA - basically, 150 watts that 'technically' you don't have to pay for, but the electricity supplier must still provide, in other words, wasted energy! And most should already realise that this kind as 'wastage' is already factored into your bill. And it's definitely not very 'environmentally-friendly'! The manual does mention though that the hob should be disconnected from the mains when not in use."

It's from here:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/product-reviews/B004BM749S

As I mentioned, this is gross measurement error - no magic just poor understanding.

#### hartiberlin

• Hero Member
• Posts: 8055
##### Re: 1850 Watts free energy power ? New GEGENE circuit by JL Naudin shows COP = 2.8
« Reply #100 on: January 11, 2013, 01:44:06 AM »
I remember hearing that these cheap digital Wattmeters also have problems
showing the real Wattage and Powerfactor,
when you use a dimmer circuit before a load, cause they can´t handle and measure correctly the
cutted sine waves from the dimmer...

Maybe it is the same problem in the Naudin and RomeroUK test with the GridTie Inverter ?

#### hartiberlin

• Hero Member
• Posts: 8055
##### Re: 1850 Watts free energy power ? New GEGENE circuit by JL Naudin shows COP = 2.8
« Reply #101 on: January 11, 2013, 03:47:26 AM »
Jean Louis has just posted a new Cold Fusion experiment with it
using the output coil as the power source:

http://jnaudin.free.fr/gegene/gegene14en.htm

Looks interesting, but he has not yet done any power measurements and efficiency tests.

Regards, Stefan.

#### JouleSeeker

• Hero Member
• Posts: 685
##### Re: 1850 Watts free energy power ? New GEGENE circuit by JL Naudin shows COP = 2.8
« Reply #102 on: January 11, 2013, 06:15:00 AM »
Here is a quote from a review of one particular model:

"Getting technical for a minute, the one other thing that surprised me concerned the hob's power-factor. The manual correctly states that when on Standby, it only consumes about 1 watt. However due to its low power-factor, it's actually pulling over 150VA - basically, 150 watts that 'technically' you don't have to pay for, but the electricity supplier must still provide, in other words, wasted energy! And most should already realise that this kind as 'wastage' is already factored into your bill. And it's definitely not very 'environmentally-friendly'! The manual does mention though that the hob should be disconnected from the mains when not in use."

It's from here:
http://www.amazon.co.uk/product-reviews/B004BM749S

As I mentioned, this is gross measurement error - no magic just poor understanding.

Hold on.  Let's say one is simply heating a liter of water in a pan on an induction cooker.
We measure the heat OUTPUT by measuring the temp rise of the water.
Then Qout = 4.19 *(mass in g)* (Temp-rise in C).

We measure Pin using a power meter, preferably an "official" power meter supplied by the utility company.

Are you saying that the output energy (Qout) will be LARGER than the measured Pin?

• Full Member
• Posts: 164
##### Re: 1850 Watts free energy power ? New GEGENE circuit by JL Naudin shows COP = 2.8
« Reply #103 on: January 11, 2013, 08:24:19 AM »
Hold on.  Let's say one is simply heating a liter of water in a pan on an induction cooker.
We measure the heat OUTPUT by measuring the temp rise of the water.
Then Qout = 4.19 *(mass in g)* (Temp-rise in C).

We measure Pin using a power meter, preferably an "official" power meter supplied by the utility company.

Are you saying that the output energy (Qout) will be LARGER than the measured Pin?

No, the output from this will always be lower than the input.
All I am saying is that the power results from this system aren't measured correctly and cannot be trusted. The power gains that JLN sees on those little Chinese screens can be explained by poor measurement methods.