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### Author Topic: 1850 Watts free energy power ? New GEGENE circuit by JL Naudin shows COP = 2.8  (Read 254868 times)

#### picowatt

• Hero Member
• Posts: 2038
##### Re: 1850 Watts free energy power ? New GEGENE circuit by JL Naudin shows COP = 2.8
« Reply #30 on: January 01, 2013, 05:25:06 PM »
I may be incorrect, but it appears from the various scope shots and photos that he is not measuring directly across the CSR (I cannot see a scope gnd lead attached to the CSR), but is instead measuring voltage at two points, with one point including the CSR Vdrop.  It appears that he then calculates the difference between the two waveforms to arrive at what he believes is the voltage across the CSR.

At the 33Kc or so frequency of the positive going voltage peak (calculated from time interval at FWHM), around 500nHy of inductance in the current sense loop would produce a 100% error in the current measurement (i.e., it would add add .1 ohms in series with the .1 ohm CSR), despite the CSR being non-inductive.  500nHy is equal to about 15 inches of straight wire.

If I am in error regarding my assumptions related to his use of the CSR and how he measured the voltage across the CSR, please feel free to enlighten me.  Possibly someone can take a closer look at his photo and see if he does indeed have his probe and probe ground directly across the CSR.  From what I can see zoomed in, it does not appear so.

It remains likely that his previous test using the light meter that indicated a 92% efficiency was closer to reality.

PW

#### hartiberlin

• Hero Member
• Posts: 8053
##### Re: 1850 Watts free energy power ? New GEGENE circuit by JL Naudin shows COP = 2.8
« Reply #31 on: January 01, 2013, 08:09:44 PM »
I have just read Naudin´s new update at:

http://jnaudin.free.fr/gegene/gegene06en.htm

Well I guess the high efficiency comes from triggering wrongly the waveforms on te scope.

If he  also has such a waveform:

http://www.overunity.com/13228/1850-watts-free-energy-power-new-gegene-circuit-by-jl-naudin-shows-cop-2-8/dlattach/attach/119141/

and is only triggering on the maximum amplitude waveform, then it is not the average power output,
but just a maximum temporarely power output, that is only there for a few microseconds...

So the best way would really be to rectify and integrate the power output into a charging cap
and then just use DC measurements to see how big the average output power really is.

As the light output measurement have already shown, the average output power is only
at around 92 %, otherwise the lights would have been much brighter...!

And the light output test is already pretty accurate.

So unfortunately I guess the new Test2 was just a measurement error.

P.S: Yes would be interesting to see how a second output Tesla Bifilar coil acts below the transmitter coil.
Will every output coil then only have half the power output ?

Many thanks  and BTW , happy new year to all  !

Regards, Stefan.

#### TinselKoala

• Hero Member
• Posts: 13958
##### Re: 1850 Watts free energy power ? New GEGENE circuit by JL Naudin shows COP = 2.8
« Reply #32 on: January 02, 2013, 01:11:05 AM »
I may be incorrect, but it appears from the various scope shots and photos that he is not measuring directly across the CSR (I cannot see a scope gnd lead attached to the CSR), but is instead measuring voltage at two points, with one point including the CSR Vdrop.  It appears that he then calculates the difference between the two waveforms to arrive at what he believes is the voltage across the CSR.

At the 33Kc or so frequency of the positive going voltage peak (calculated from time interval at FWHM), around 500nHy of inductance in the current sense loop would produce a 100% error in the current measurement (i.e., it would add add .1 ohms in series with the .1 ohm CSR), despite the CSR being non-inductive.  500nHy is equal to about 15 inches of straight wire.

If I am in error regarding my assumptions related to his use of the CSR and how he measured the voltage across the CSR, please feel free to enlighten me.  Possibly someone can take a closer look at his photo and see if he does indeed have his probe and probe ground directly across the CSR.  From what I can see zoomed in, it does not appear so.

It remains likely that his previous test using the light meter that indicated a 92% efficiency was closer to reality.

PW
I think I see both scope references attached to the coil end of the CVR.

However.... I am not convinced that the coil is hooked up as a Tesla bifilar ! It's not clear to me just how the coil is hooked to the lead-out wires. But I'll take his word for it for now.

Stefan's objection--- that the readings are taken at the peak of the outer envelope--- seems very damning. These cookers use the envelope modulation to control depth of penetration into the cooking pan (see the pdf). It's pretty clear from looking at the envelope-modulated waveform Stefan linked and those in the pdf file that the true overall average output power is going to be about half of that measured at the very peak of the envelope.

I'd like to see simultaneous waveforms from both the transmitting coil in the cooker, and the receiving coil. I will guess that the _transmitting_ coil in the cooker will show the same high "efficiency" when measured by the same method used for the receiving coil.

ETA: Yep, it's perfectly clear from the video that the envelope modulation is happening, and that Jean-Louis has computed his power output from the peak oscillations.

#### picowatt

• Hero Member
• Posts: 2038
##### Re: 1850 Watts free energy power ? New GEGENE circuit by JL Naudin shows COP = 2.8
« Reply #33 on: January 02, 2013, 01:43:54 AM »
I think I see both scope references attached to the coil end of the CVR.

However.... I am not convinced that the coil is hooked up as a Tesla bifilar ! It's not clear to me just how the coil is hooked to the lead-out wires. But I'll take his word for it for now.

Stefan's objection--- that the readings are taken at the peak of the outer envelope--- seems very damning. These cookers use the envelope modulation to control depth of penetration into the cooking pan (see the pdf). It's pretty clear from looking at the envelope-modulated waveform Stefan linked and those in the pdf file that the true overall average output power is going to be about half of that measured at the very peak of the envelope.

I'd like to see simultaneous waveforms from both the transmitting coil in the cooker, and the receiving coil. I will guess that the _transmitting_ coil in the cooker will show the same high "efficiency" when measured by the same method used for the receiving coil.

ETA: Yep, it's perfectly clear from the video that the envelope modulation is happening, and that Jean-Louis has computed his power output from the peak oscillations.

Happy New Year TK (and all...),

I was looking at a photo that did not show that CSR board, it was hidden behind the unit.  I see in the video (not sure it was there yet when I originally looked) and in the capture you posted, that he does indeed appear to be directly across the CSR, so pretty much everything I said in my previous post is moot!  Assuming the bi-fi and lamp loads are floating "ground wise", all looks proper.

It probably would be a good idea for him to increase the distance between the induction coil and the CSR/probes/ground clip leads.  Possibly some degree of induction is happening there and this could be easily tested by moving/re-orienting the CSR board during a measurement to see if scope display changes.

It is strange that the DSO measurement method yields almost exactly double the power out that the light meter method demonstrated.

PW

#### broli

• Hero Member
• Posts: 2246
##### Re: 1850 Watts free energy power ? New GEGENE circuit by JL Naudin shows COP = 2.8
« Reply #34 on: January 02, 2013, 01:44:17 AM »
I added my own 50Hz 100% modulation to Naudin's data and the average power dropped to around 895Watt.

It was fun while it lasted on to other projects  .

#### hartiberlin

• Hero Member
• Posts: 8053
##### Re: 1850 Watts free energy power ? New GEGENE circuit by JL Naudin shows COP = 2.8
« Reply #35 on: January 02, 2013, 04:32:56 PM »
Yes, I rewatched Naudins last video again and the waveform was not steady on his scope
but jumped up and down...

So there was a modulation of thie waveform,
otherwise the scope would have triggered perfectly and it would have shown a steady state
waveform...

So the power output is probably much lower and otherwise the lamp brightness test would
have already shown the ou factor...

I still wonder, why his analog meters have shown so mamny wrong values,
but probably they are only calibrated for 50  Hz AC usage and not for
Khz usage with modulation on it...

Rergards, Stefan.

P.S: Would be interesting to see a circuit diagram from such an induction  cooking plate.

#### tagor

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1333
##### Re: 1850 Watts free energy power ? New GEGENE circuit by JL Naudin shows COP = 2.8
« Reply #36 on: January 02, 2013, 04:57:55 PM »

P.S: Would be interesting to see a circuit diagram from such an induction  cooking plate.

#### mrzlica

• Newbie
• Posts: 26
##### Re: 1850 Watts free energy power ? New GEGENE circuit by JL Naudin shows COP = 2.8
« Reply #37 on: January 02, 2013, 09:23:52 PM »

#### TinselKoala

• Hero Member
• Posts: 13958
##### Re: 1850 Watts free energy power ? New GEGENE circuit by JL Naudin shows COP = 2.8
« Reply #38 on: January 02, 2013, 11:01:09 PM »
test no.3, one coil, 96%

http://jnaudin.free.fr/gegene/gegene07en.htm

by

Results are in very good agreement with the lightmeter result. Now the issue is tracking down the reason for the unusually high figure from the scope measurements.

Again, I suggest measuring the induction cooker's output coil directly and computing its power using the same scope settings as before. Then, "zoom out" the timebase and trigger the scope on the modulation envelope, showing two or three full cycles of the envelope, and let the scope recompute the power curve over a more realistic time interval, one which doesn't just count the peak values within one "fat" part of the envelope, but rather counts several cycles of the modulation envelope. My prediction is that using the same settings as before, the output coil will also show "overunity" but a little more than the receiving bifilar coil. I'll say it will be very close to 2000 Watts. Then when the zoomed-out envelope is measured, the average power will drop to around 1000 Watts, of which 96 percent is getting to the receiving bifilar coil.

#### gotoluc

• elite_member
• Hero Member
• Posts: 3096
##### Re: 1850 Watts free energy power ? New GEGENE circuit by JL Naudin shows COP = 2.8
« Reply #39 on: January 03, 2013, 06:55:43 AM »
Hi everyone,

Happy New Year

Here is a test video made by Romero UK with an interesting idea. He added a feedback using a grid tie inverter.

Luc

#### Magluvin

• Hero Member
• Posts: 5886
##### Re: 1850 Watts free energy power ? New GEGENE circuit by JL Naudin shows COP = 2.8
« Reply #40 on: January 03, 2013, 07:10:46 AM »
Hi everyone,

Happy New Year

Here is a test video made by Romero UK with an interesting idea. He added a feedback using a grid tie inverter.

Luc

Very cool. Hmm. How does the inverter output become in sync with the wall power?  If they are off freq...  I dunno.

Mags

#### gotoluc

• elite_member
• Hero Member
• Posts: 3096
##### Re: 1850 Watts free energy power ? New GEGENE circuit by JL Naudin shows COP = 2.8
« Reply #41 on: January 03, 2013, 07:19:43 AM »
Very cool. Hmm. How does the inverter output become in sync with the wall power?  If they are off freq...  I dunno.

Mags

Hey Mags

I would guess that it auto syncs to the grid sine wave phase since it's designed to tie to a grid. I would hope anyways

Keep an eye on it as he may answer.

Luc

#### romerouk

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 366
##### Re: 1850 Watts free energy power ? New GEGENE circuit by JL Naudin shows COP = 2.8
« Reply #42 on: January 03, 2013, 01:12:05 PM »
Very cool. Hmm. How does the inverter output become in sync with the wall power?  If they are off freq...  I dunno.

Mags
the grid tie inverter is automaticaly checking to be in sync with the wall power, this feature can be used with many other experiments.

Best Regards,
Romero

#### broli

• Hero Member
• Posts: 2246
##### Re: 1850 Watts free energy power ? New GEGENE circuit by JL Naudin shows COP = 2.8
« Reply #43 on: January 03, 2013, 07:48:40 PM »
I have quickly processed the data from Naudin's new test #5 measurements.

And I must say I'm a bit confused myself now :p. I calculated the power output using two different methods, one is using the mean the is using the root mean square. Both of these results should have given the same result or atleast very close to eachother, however in these calculations the average is lower than the RMS. Does anyone have a clue what might have caused this?

#### synchro1

• Hero Member
• Posts: 4775
##### Re: 1850 Watts free energy power ? New GEGENE circuit by JL Naudin shows COP = 2.8
« Reply #44 on: January 03, 2013, 08:35:11 PM »

Or, maybe 1 receiver coil on both sides of the transmitter coil?  I dont know if one will take away from the other.

Mags