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Author Topic: V Gate Magnetic Config  (Read 40101 times)

Offline Jdneilson

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Re: V Gate Magnetic Config
« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2013, 10:08:54 PM »
The outer casing is made of perspex, the only metal components are the magnets, Iron ferrite rods and bismuth, the bar magnets can be cancelled by simply creating a horse shoe, the bar magnet then becomes the middle section and looses 90% of its attraction.  Also, the fact that lateral motion is achieved on 11 cylinders, thats 33 magnets @ 1kg pull force far outway the attraction of the "compromised" magnets.  The reason the casing is made of perspex is to remove static build up as this can reduce the stability of the magnetic fields.  The design has a equal pull along its shaft to ensure equal load on the magnetic bearings.  I have calculated the guass at each stage of each gate, there is 3 times the amount of pull force to counteract the reverse attraction at the end of the gate.  This is why I believe this will work. 

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Re: V Gate Magnetic Config
« Reply #15 on: November 21, 2013, 10:08:54 PM »

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: V Gate Magnetic Config
« Reply #16 on: November 21, 2013, 10:33:37 PM »
The outer casing is made of perspex, the only metal components are the magnets, Iron ferrite rods and bismuth, the bar magnets can be cancelled by simply creating a horse shoe, the bar magnet then becomes the middle section and looses 90% of its attraction.  Also, the fact that lateral motion is achieved on 11 cylinders, thats 33 magnets @ 1kg pull force far outway the attraction of the "compromised" magnets.  The reason the casing is made of perspex is to remove static build up as this can reduce the stability of the magnetic fields.  The design has a equal pull along its shaft to ensure equal load on the magnetic bearings.  I have calculated the guass at each stage of each gate, there is 3 times the amount of pull force to counteract the reverse attraction at the end of the gate.  This is why I believe this will work.
The perspex case makes sense because it doesn't allow eddy currents.
You are wrong about "static buildup" influencing magnetic fields if you are talking about electrostatics, and in fact a metal housing would not allow electrostatic fields/charges to build up whereas a plastic one like Perspex would.
The rest, the part I can decode, is an empirical issue. Can you show any evidence, even in a simulation, that a _single_ "cylinder" unit can overcome its own losses? Your calculations don't mean much to me unless I can see your working. Errors have been made before in calculations!
Do you have any experience with magnetic bearings? With bismuth metal in conjunction with magnets? And what about the issue that the original "V-gate" doesn't work, and nobody has made any variation on one that does?

Offline Jdneilson

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Re: V Gate Magnetic Config
« Reply #17 on: November 21, 2013, 11:08:28 PM »
The original calloway vgate posted by roobert33 loses all its momentum in lifting the stator magnet. and any device that relies on mechanical intervention will hit the same hurdle. if you are lifting something it requires energy!  I have the guass readings I was refering to, based on a bar magnets end (maximum pull force) sliding towards the middle of the bar magnet.

If you imagine the width of the magnets being 6mm wide
12 magnets per side of the vgate
and an offset of 0.5mm per stage in the vgate.

I will try and find them and post shortly

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Re: V Gate Magnetic Config
« Reply #17 on: November 21, 2013, 11:08:28 PM »
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Offline Jdneilson

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Re: V Gate Magnetic Config
« Reply #18 on: November 21, 2013, 11:19:13 PM »
I understand how magnetic fields work, I am using 3ds max for design and femm 4.2 for magnetic calculations.  I am looking at using bismuth as shielding although alkaline is a cheaper alternative but not as effective.  Dimagnetics basicly act like a mirror to magnetic forces, the forces cannot penetrate the surface and are reflected back.  As for the the bearings, using 2 ring magnets, the outer a NS and the inner SN and the repelling force sits the shaft central, magnets at both ends of the shaft, also repelling forces keep the shaft from being displaced.  The vacuum is to remove air friction, the bearings to remove mechanical friction and the magnetic clutch so power can be transfered via the vacuum. 

Offline Jdneilson

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Re: V Gate Magnetic Config
« Reply #19 on: November 21, 2013, 11:42:22 PM »
I'm not sure where I read that static charges can influence magnetic bearings, I believe it was an article regarding Earnshaws theorem.  Regarding the rotation of magnets in a repelling state, I will tap off the static at the bearings as a precaution, a fluorescent tube should be sufficient.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: V Gate Magnetic Config
« Reply #19 on: November 21, 2013, 11:42:22 PM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: V Gate Magnetic Config
« Reply #20 on: November 21, 2013, 11:47:09 PM »
...
  I am looking at using bismuth as shielding although alkaline is a cheaper alternative but not as effective.  Dimagnetics basicly act like a mirror to magnetic forces, the forces cannot penetrate the surface and are reflected back.
...

Hi,

If you look for the magnetic permeability of bismuth, you will find it 0.99983  so just a tiny bit less than 1 which is the chosen permeability of air (for comparison).  So it is simply not true that the forces (I suppose you mean flux lines here) cannot penetrate the surface.  And if you were to use a rather thick piece of bismuth, it would be almost equivalent to the effect of an air gap corresponding to the thickness of the bismuth.

Links on permeabilities for some materials: 
http://www.microwaves101.com/encyclopedia/magneticmaterials.cfm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diamagnetism

Gyula

Offline truesearch

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Re: V Gate Magnetic Config
« Reply #21 on: November 21, 2013, 11:58:45 PM »
@Jdneilson:


I don't want to discourage your experimenting and development at all. However, I don't believe that bismuth will do what you need. Take a look at this link from back in 2009/2010: http://www.overunity.com/8472/magnet-shielding/msg236766/#msg236766


Good luck with your discoveries and hope you keep posting  :)


truesearch

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: V Gate Magnetic Config
« Reply #21 on: November 21, 2013, 11:58:45 PM »
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Offline Jdneilson

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Re: V Gate Magnetic Config
« Reply #22 on: November 22, 2013, 12:05:19 AM »
Hmmmm, Was looking at bismuth in my original design, to use as a cap over the magnets. like a quadrant of a sphere.  allowing the attraction and then repelling once the magnet had passed over the bismuth.  Thankfully that was an old design idea and bismuth isn't mission critical in this design!!!  Thanks for the heads up on bismuth :)

Offline Jdneilson

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Re: V Gate Magnetic Config
« Reply #23 on: November 22, 2013, 12:29:14 AM »
Here's the cylinder construction

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Re: V Gate Magnetic Config
« Reply #23 on: November 22, 2013, 12:29:14 AM »
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Offline truesearch

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Re: V Gate Magnetic Config
« Reply #24 on: November 22, 2013, 12:46:11 AM »
@Jdneilson:


Is the attached non-3d image sort of what you see for your V-Gate design?


truesearch

Offline Jdneilson

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Re: V Gate Magnetic Config
« Reply #25 on: November 22, 2013, 12:58:41 AM »
Similar, apart from the gap is bridged with an iron ferrite disk, the disk has cutouts where the sticking points would be, the disk keeps the flux lines tight along the first 11 points of the vgate and greatly improves the attraction of the stator bar magnets.  when the 12th "Sticky" part of the vgate is reached the gap reduces the power of the bar magnet and makes the field lines between the 12th stage loose and reduces the power at this point so less attraction to pull it back!  Very simple design.   33 Bar Magnets vs 3 compromised magnets.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: V Gate Magnetic Config
« Reply #25 on: November 22, 2013, 12:58:41 AM »
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Offline Jdneilson

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Re: V Gate Magnetic Config
« Reply #26 on: November 22, 2013, 01:05:48 AM »
Will take a look at any comments tomorrow, must go to bed as I have work in the morning, Night all!

Offline TinselKoala

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Re: V Gate Magnetic Config
« Reply #27 on: November 22, 2013, 08:14:39 AM »
I understand how magnetic fields work,

Apparently you do not, as the rest of this post indicates.

Quote
I am using 3ds max for design and femm 4.2 for magnetic calculations.

You have great skills with your CAD package. Your drawings are very nice and clearly took a lot of work. You are to be congratulated for that much anyway. But any simulation package like femm is only as good as the assumptions that go into it. If you feed it garbage it will happily process that garbage into pretty packaged... garbage.

Quote
I am looking at using bismuth as shielding although alkaline is a cheaper alternative but not as effective.  Dimagnetics basicly act like a mirror to magnetic forces, the forces cannot penetrate the surface and are reflected back.

And here you begin again to go wrong, as others have pointed out above. "Alkaline"? What??

Quote
  As for the the bearings, using 2 ring magnets, the outer a NS and the inner SN and the repelling force sits the shaft central,

This much is correct and can work, as many before you, most notably the Steorn lads with their "plinth" Orbo motors have shown. But...

Quote
magnets at both ends of the shaft, also repelling forces keep the shaft from being displaced. 


Again here is where you go wrong. One end of the shaft has to bear against a fixed surface, or the system needs to be actively stabilized by electromagnets, sensors and a feedback system. Steorn weren't able to overcome this (in spite of something like 14 or 20 millions of pounds of investment burn) and wound up having one end of their shafts fitted with a tiny ball that would bear against a hardened micrometer head, which also allowed the "in-out" or endplay adjustment to get the proper positioning of the concentric ring magnet bearings for good support.

Quote
The vacuum is to remove air friction, the bearings to remove mechanical friction and the magnetic clutch so power can be transfered via the vacuum.

Nothing wrong there, except that the bearing system won't work the way you think it will. And of course... the air friction would be negligible compared to the great power you think you are going to get, so why go to the complexity and trouble of removing it.

Quote
I'm not sure where I read that static charges can influence magnetic bearings, I believe it was an article regarding Earnshaws theorem.

Please keep looking, I'd like to see the article.
Funny that you should mention Earnshaw's Theorem, but you believe that you can suspend a shaft between two repelling magnets at the ends of the shaft. Earnshaw's Theorem tells us, among other things, that you cannot do this. (The "Levitron" spin-stabilized toy is a special case that doesn't disprove the theorem and requires incredibly precise adjustment to work properly.) Maybe a first, and simple, step for you would be to get yourself a shaft and some ring and button magnets and try it for yourself. You should be able to build a frame of sufficient strength and accuracy from commonly available materials (wooden "craft sticks" and Duco cement, for example), and you can use almost anything, like a wooden dowel, as a shaft.  If you can get your shaft to "float" stably between the end magnets.... please let me know right away; that much alone would be a highly significant result.

Quote
Regarding the rotation of magnets in a repelling state, I will tap off the static at the bearings as a precaution, a fluorescent tube should be sufficient.

I still have no idea why you think there will be "static" in your system. Rotating magnets don't produce electrostatic charges on their own, and the current from electrostatic discharges is generally so weak that you can't detect the magnetic fields around them with ordinary equipment; neither will external magnets have much influence on normal electrostatic motors or generators, except by pulling on their metal parts.

Quote
The original calloway vgate posted by roobert33 loses all its momentum in lifting the stator magnet. and any device that relies on mechanical intervention will hit the same hurdle.


That isn't why that one doesn't work, but it is certainly another loss in the system, that roobert had to overcome by adding power from outside. There are lots of other "Calloway vgate" versions that don't lift the stator like roobert's clever model does, though... and none of them work, either; they lose all their momentum because _there is nothing to replace it_.

Just so you know, I do have a little bit of experience with magnets, magnetic levitation, magnetic bearings,  rotating machines, and electrostatic generators and motors. I have practical experience from building and testing things, as well as a "fair" grounding in theory. I sure can't make drawings like yours, though! That's a skill I envy, and you should be able to put it to good use.
       
Good luck, keep thinking, and +please+ try to do some real "proof of principle" experimentation on your own. Getting a shaft to float between the end magnets would be a great start.

I'll post this for your amusement, although I've posted it before in various places.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVfw-TeJ9r4

Offline Jdneilson

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Re: V Gate Magnetic Config
« Reply #28 on: November 22, 2013, 08:54:44 PM »
TinselKoala, It would appear that you too have a talent, The ability to pick and ridicule anyone on here that has an idea, judging from your replies to other posts you seem to have the ability and will to deter anyone from even attempting to create such devices, maybe you should seek employment with the nearest petro-chemical plant or energy supplier.  You evidently have a calling

Thanks to all the other people for suggestions and pointing me in the right direction.

Offline conradelektro

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Re: V Gate Magnetic Config
« Reply #29 on: November 22, 2013, 09:43:48 PM »
TinselKoala, It would appear that you too have a talent, The ability to pick and ridicule anyone on here that has an idea, judging from your replies to other posts you seem to have the ability and will to deter anyone from even attempting to create such devices, maybe you should seek employment with the nearest petro-chemical plant or energy supplier.  You evidently have a calling

Thanks to all the other people for suggestions and pointing me in the right direction.

I want to defend TinselKoala because many people attack him for what he does.

TinselKoala has the great talent of looking through misconceptions and illusions and he even takes the time to read and to comment. All the good people who post happily misconceptions and illusions should be grateful, but they attack instead of thinking, measuring and learning.

What does this say about the attackers?

If you make extraordinary claims you have to accept criticism and questions! Is this so hard to understand? Every mentally sane person will demand proof. Therefore a claim without proof is an offence. If you make extraordinary claims without proof you offend the reader because you assume that the reader is stupid.

If you make an extraordinary claim you have to provide proof. The readers of your extraordinary claim do not have to prove that your claim is wrong. It is never possible to prove that some concept will NOT work, it has to be proven that it DOES work.

TinselKoala does not attack, he explains. He might be a bit cynical, but people who make these extraordinary (and mostly foolish claims) without proof really deserve some ridicule for turning the burden of proof around.

Be glad that TinselKoala is around and listens and replies. I myself have almost stopped replying to extraordinary claims because the "inventors" do not want to discuss their claim, they want to be right without proof.

Greetings, Conrad

 

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