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Solid States Devices => solid state devices => Topic started by: aladinlamp on December 22, 2012, 02:51:36 PM

Title: Lorentz force questions
Post by: aladinlamp on December 22, 2012, 02:51:36 PM
Hi
 
 i have 2 questions regarding Lorentz force
 
 1. Does Lorentz force create opposite and equal reaction force acting on magnets, as you can see on attached picture <?
 
 
 2.Does conductor moving in homogeneous magnetic field consume more power than  static condtuctor to  achieve same continuous amperage?  Does the wire movement increase power input <>?
 
 Thanx for clarification
Title: Re: Lorentz force questions
Post by: Neo-X on December 22, 2012, 05:02:52 PM
On your first question the answer is yes. On your second question either you move the magnet or the wire you can get the same amount of drag thats why the electrical power output from wire is always less than the mechanical power input.
Title: Re: Lorentz force questions
Post by: aladinlamp on December 22, 2012, 05:33:32 PM
what do you mean by drag <?

i was asking if relative motion between wire and magnets increases power input compared to static scenario.


Title: Re: Lorentz force questions
Post by: Neo-X on December 22, 2012, 05:37:26 PM
what do you mean by static scenario?
Title: Re: Lorentz force questions
Post by: aladinlamp on December 22, 2012, 05:41:10 PM
static i mean, wire and magnets are hold in place, even if they want to move from each other
Title: Re: Lorentz force questions
Post by: Neo-X on December 22, 2012, 05:46:55 PM
Ah you are talking the faraday disc. In faraday disc, lorentz law cannot apply there so oviously its overunity.
Title: Re: Lorentz force questions
Post by: aladinlamp on December 22, 2012, 06:02:13 PM
no , i mean picture above, imagine those magnets to be long, to go all the way up... the wire is moving upwards, linear motion, because of lorentz

magnets are hold in place, only wire is moving in homogenous magnetic field

will this increase power input <>?


Title: Re: Lorentz force questions
Post by: Neo-X on December 22, 2012, 06:17:02 PM
No.. Because the magnetic field created by the electric current opposes the magnetic field of the magnet.
Title: Re: Lorentz force questions
Post by: aladinlamp on December 22, 2012, 06:20:01 PM
ok so does not matter if wire is allowed to move or not

you are saying input voltage and amperage stays the same


Title: Re: Lorentz force questions
Post by: Neo-X on December 22, 2012, 06:35:54 PM
yeah the same amount of power will be produced either you move the magnet or the wire.
Title: Re: Lorentz force questions
Post by: aladinlamp on December 22, 2012, 06:45:16 PM
you mean power consumed right...

power consumed when nothing moves versus power consumed when wire is moving


Title: Re: Lorentz force questions
Post by: TechStuf on December 23, 2012, 03:12:16 AM



Watch this short movie:


http://freelights.co.uk/move.avi


The ramifications should quickly become obvious.  There are numerous ways to overcome the 'Lorentzian legacy'.  Should one wish to charge a capacitor instead of lighting LEDs and then dump it's potential back into spinning the wheels of change, such may be handily arranged.  Remember, and this is important, the magnets doing the work, need not be the ones carrying the load.


Free energy is Right aBound the corner.


Peace,


TS
Title: Re: Lorentz force questions
Post by: Neo-X on December 23, 2012, 04:56:16 AM
the only way i know to reduce the lorentz is to move the core instead of moving the coil or magnet. By doing so, the reluctance is varying and so does the magnetic flux linking to the coil but it doesnt produce so much drag because the magnet and coil are not moving.
Title: Re: Lorentz force questions
Post by: crazycut06 on December 23, 2012, 11:59:33 AM
the only way i know to reduce the lorentz is to move the core instead of moving the coil or magnet. By doing so, the reluctance is varying and so does the magnetic flux linking to the coil but it doesnt produce so much drag because the magnet and coil are not moving.


Hi Neo-X,
Have you tried it? How can you generate current if the magnet or the coil is not moving?
Title: Re: Lorentz force questions
Post by: ALVARO_CS on December 23, 2012, 03:23:28 PM



Hi Neo-X,
Have you tried it? How can you generate current if the magnet or the coil is not moving?

crazycut06
with a flux gate generator, that is a rotor which has pieces of iron at the rim.
those pieces pass between fixed magnet and fixed coil (one in front of the other).
The coil receives the flux when the rotor iron makes a bridge when passing.
As far as I know, not OU yet.
google (or  youyube): lenzness generator

cheers
Alvaro
Title: Re: Lorentz force questions
Post by: crazycut06 on December 23, 2012, 04:13:27 PM

crazycut06
with a flux gate generator, that is a rotor which has pieces of iron at the rim.
those pieces pass between fixed magnet and fixed coil (one in front of the other).
The coil receives the flux when the rotor iron makes a bridge when passing.
As far as I know, not OU yet.
google (or  youyube): lenzness generator

cheers
Alvaro


Yes, i know about that, but i was thinkin of the core inside the coil moving from left to right with magnets on both ends, will lenz be less? Or We get less lenz because we do not generate more current?
Title: Re: Lorentz force questions
Post by: Neo-X on December 23, 2012, 04:52:17 PM
@crazycut

I havent tried it yet bcoz im more into solid state ou generator. I believe that a standard generator specially those bigger one are capable of getting overunity. For example, you draw a constant current from the generator, so the lorentz force or drag is also constant. Suppose we increase the speed of the generator, the voltage through the output coil is also increased but the drag losses is still the same bcoz we draw constant current. So we can say that the output power to the generator is can be increase by increasing its speed while its drag loss is not. And if we reduce the friction of the generator, the input power needed to rotate the generator will become so less untill the output power of the generator surpass the input power.
Title: Re: Lorentz force questions
Post by: verpies on December 25, 2012, 10:43:54 AM
In Faraday disk, Lorentz law cannot apply there so oviously its overunity.
Why Lorentz law cannot be applied?
Title: Re: Lorentz force questions
Post by: broli on December 25, 2012, 12:01:00 PM
If you have some spare time at your hand try to read this:
http://www.df.lth.se/~snorkelf/LongitudinalMSc.pdf

and go through these:
http://blogs.scienceforums.net/pengkuan/

and if you're still really bored:
http://www.distinti.com/docs/nm.pdf



Title: Re: Lorentz force questions
Post by: Dave45 on December 25, 2012, 03:46:52 PM


Watch this short movie:


http://freelights.co.uk/move.avi (http://freelights.co.uk/move.avi)


The ramifications should quickly become obvious.  There are numerous ways to overcome the 'Lorentzian legacy'.  Should one wish to charge a capacitor instead of lighting LEDs and then dump it's potential back into spinning the wheels of change, such may be handily arranged.  Remember, and this is important, the magnets doing the work, need not be the ones carrying the load.


Free energy is Right aBound the corner.


Peace,


TS

Hey TS that vid reminds me of Newman's device, I wonder if the magnet was set on an axle inside a coil like the Newman motor and was allowed to rotate as the magnet on the wheel moved past,  ??? might be worth checking out.
Title: Re: Lorentz force questions
Post by: gravityblock on April 30, 2013, 06:28:03 AM
The Lorentz force is nothing more than the Z-D force1 viewed from the proper inertial system of a permanent magnet.  The field of a permanent magnet is magneto-static. The movement of the magnetic source causes the Z-D effect which has been termed magneto-kinematic.  A magneto-static field does not meet the requirement for wave motion and moves like a body synchronously with its source. Nevertheless, the magnetic field satisfies Faraday's law just like any electromagnetic wave.

1.)  Zajev-Dokuchajev (Z-D) effect (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&ved=0CEUQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fpiers.org%2Fpiersproceedings%2Fdownload.php%3Ffile%3DcGllcnMyMDEyTW9zY293fDNBOF8xMDQwLnBkZnwxMjAzMDExMzI4NTM%3D&ei=DTt_UdumDKiFywG4p4HIDA&usg=AFQjCNHtE5r2kVi1AN2ut8u0r0wui88vZw&sig2=NFBd1JvdzTLvvJ55TvWZLw&bvm=bv.45645796,d.b2I): the moving of the magnetic field with the rotating magnet.

Gravock
Title: Re: Lorentz force questions
Post by: gravityblock on April 30, 2013, 09:52:03 AM
The comments found in the image below are so true when you really think about it as shown by the work found in Section 5.  Experiment #3 is an instance of Faraday's Law due to the strength of the magnetic field changing.  However, the magnetic field itself in experiment #1 and #2 are not changing, thus it is not an instance of Faraday's Law.  This is an important and fundamental aspect of electromagnetism in which researchers need to understand.

Gravock
Title: Re: Lorentz force questions
Post by: gravityblock on April 30, 2013, 10:24:29 AM
The phase shift cannot be explained if the magnetic field is considered to be immobile, but is readily explained by the rotation of the magnetic field with the magnet.

Gravock
Title: Re: Lorentz force questions
Post by: gravityblock on May 01, 2013, 10:32:46 PM
There is a new method of calculation presented in the publication which is applicable to a range of generic problems dealing with moving sources of magnetic flux.  This is an important and fundamental aspect of electromagnetism which needs to be understood.  Due to the lack of response, it appears the significance of this is being overlooked.

Gravock
Title: Re: Lorentz force questions
Post by: broli on May 01, 2013, 11:38:42 PM
Due to the lack of response, it appears the significance of this is being overlooked.

Don't mistake silence with absence ;) .

A custom made half moon neo magnet.
Title: Re: Lorentz force questions
Post by: broli on May 03, 2013, 06:54:12 AM
Hi GB, even before seeing this article I was playing around with different kind of setups in my mind. I always have and still believe that the homopolar motor/generator is one of the least researched aspects in physics/relativity while there's still much to discover. Following in the footsteps of people like Stefan Marinov, J. Guala-Valverde, Bruce DePalma, Robert J Distinti...and many more, I decided to continue where they left off.

Especially the "electrometer" probe mentioned in that article you show is something I've been thinking about for a while. That is, a way to perform truly "single piece" voltage measurements without having to close the loop which would end up raising the endless question as to where the voltage is truly generated. The open probe circuit can actually be very easily be constructed, here's such circuit..

http://www.amasci.com/emotor/chargdet.html (http://www.amasci.com/emotor/chargdet.html)

My only question is about sensitivity. however this is also mentioned

Quote
Regular foil-leaf electroscopes deal with electrostatic potentials in the range of many hundreds or thousands of volts. The above device can detect one volt. Its sensitivity is ridiculously high.
Title: Re: Lorentz force questions
Post by: gravityblock on May 03, 2013, 09:11:59 AM
Broli,

The electrometer you referenced is a great find.  The 1 volt is doable, but out of curiosity, is there a way of cheating by placing a small electret in the vicinity of the electrometer at a distance which would be just shy of turning the LED on/off?  Couldn't we then detect a smaller voltage in the millivolt range during our experiments?  I'm interested in the half moon magnet too.

GB
Title: Re: Lorentz force questions
Post by: broli on May 04, 2013, 09:58:03 AM
Broli,

The electrometer you referenced is a great find.  The 1 volt is doable, but out of curiosity, is there a way of cheating by placing a small electret in the vicinity of the electrometer at a distance which would be just shy of turning the LED on/off?  Couldn't we then detect a smaller voltage in the millivolt range during our experiments?  I'm interested in the half moon magnet too.

GB

I don't think you need to go that far, you could just cascade a few of those FETs to amplify the signal further. However another issue to note is that most neo magnets have a metallic coating which is conductive. When you spin this with the magnet it will induce a voltage, per homopolar generator rules, and this voltage will thus polarize the coating. The question that then will arise is are you measuring, in the probe, the induced voltage applied by homopolar rules or the induced voltage due to electrostatic induction of the coating. However this can easily be resolved by using a plastic/rubber coated magnet.
Title: Re: Lorentz force questions
Post by: gravityblock on May 04, 2013, 10:21:43 AM
I don't think you need to go that far, you could just cascade a few of those FETs to amplify the signal further. However another issue to note is that most neo magnets have a metallic coating which is conductive. When you spin this with the magnet it will induce a voltage, per homopolar generator rules, and this voltage will thus polarize the coating. The question that then will arise is are you measuring, in the probe, the induced voltage applied by homopolar rules or the induced voltage due to electrostatic induction of the coating. However this can easily be resolved by using a plastic/rubber coated magnet.

A plastic/rubber coated magnet is an easy fix.  I was thinking the electret idea would allow for lower rotational speeds, higher humidity levels, weaker and smaller diameter magnets, etc.  However, cascading a few FET's to amplify the signal further is a much better setup and provides more flexibility during testing than the electret idea.  This makes things much more doable. :)

Edit: Added the last sentence.
Title: Re: Lorentz force questions
Post by: lumen on May 17, 2013, 07:31:39 PM
Broli,

That looks like it might work for a test to see if the field cutting the probe would separate the charges as you show.
A FET probe is very sensitive and you would need to take care that other things were not inducing the charge.

My theory on rotating a magnet on it's axis is that the field always takes the position of less work, whether it rotates with the magnet or not depends on which one does the least work.

If an amount of work could be determined by how fast the charge would accumulate, then this might serve as a path to proving a rotating field!
It may be possible to add some accumulating plates on each end of the probe to improve the charge, or a super low voltage diode to prevent the charge from equalizing when the magnet stops rotating.