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Author Topic: V gate question  (Read 14605 times)

Offline ace569er

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V gate question
« on: February 04, 2013, 12:29:45 AM »
I have a question. If a v gate is set up in repulsion. How many and in which part(speed) of the v, counter pushing sets are needed to push to first magnet through the gate?  example:

Offline ace569er

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Re: V gate question
« Reply #1 on: February 04, 2013, 12:47:15 AM »
also in attract would be nice....

On a different note, I see the zip ring marble rails, or what ever they are actually called. The metal ball get stuck on the end. Were the magnets are strongest. What if you use slightly weaker sphere magnets on axles? Having the first one pushed off the gate by a second repulsive fast moving spere?( Need a large track with very gradual increasing strength.)

Offline ace569er

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Re: V gate question
« Reply #2 on: February 09, 2013, 08:05:55 PM »
really....no one knows???

Offline shadowpt

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Re: V gate question
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2013, 10:15:59 AM »
After running simulations on configurations like V-gate or even the Spiral wheel I understood that no ammount of sets can overcome the sticky point, this is actually pretty simple to understand.

When you set magnets in a inclined configuration (like the V-gate) they are both contributing to the movement as much as they are against it, this means that for each next magnet that is closer to the center there is also another magnet before pulling it back, if only with a smaller force. In the end you are adding and subtracting force from each magnet and the total result of all forces is actually smaller or equal to the last magnet (the one at the sticky point).

If this system could result as one thinks it should then only 1 V-gate would be enough since the magnet in the middle would achieve a bigger force than the one present on the sticky point, the fact that it doesn't means that no matter how many sequenced v-gates you have it still won't be enough to overcome the exit.

If you want I can draw a scheme explaining this in a more detailed way.

Offline ace569er

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Re: V gate question
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2013, 07:18:24 PM »
I sort of get what your saying....,but the drawing made no difference if there is three, one or what ever number of V's. (tho gate space does matter if you want it to run) It's a stator it all breaks out the same as you said. That's not what I'm saying. I talking about multiple armatures. Big difference, The armature is pulling to the gate. The  force is not equal till it hits the gate. which is why it stops at the gates......! My drawing shows the armature passing gates. If the first magnet can be pushed passed, is all I needed to know. If you build my drawing you will see, that the first magnet WILL be push passed the gate. Just like I thought. It stops after, because there are no longer multiple magnets pushing the second magnet, after the first passes the gate. That is what I needed to know. So that if  multiple stators CAN push the one in the, sticky point of, gate passed. Up to 5 can always push 1. Next best is 3 to 1. Meaning with good math ratio skills, you can find a gate to space to length to strength
 ratio that works. Just keep dividing the circle. I explain how in a different post. All you have to do is build my drawing up there to see you can push passed the sticky point if a gate. Then do the math, to wrap a large cylinder at the right gate, space, to armature ratio. To make it work, enjoy....
 To clarify by 3 to 1; I mean that at any point if 1 is stuck 3 are pushing. At any point if 1 is in a space 3 are pushing. 3 are always pushing out of the 4.

Offline shadowpt

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Re: V gate question
« Reply #5 on: February 14, 2013, 03:38:20 PM »
I know exactly what you mean cause I had that same thought aswell. The thing is that I already did the math and the simulations up to 10 intercalated systems (ex. 10 Vgates or Spirals with the stators in equaly different postions) and the sum of the forces will never be enough to push out the one stuck at the exit/entry point because in such systems the forces that contribute for movement are reduced by a big margin and all sumed up will only be equal or lower to the sticky point.

Give it a try with FEMM, its really easy to use and you are able to discover the same as I did. If you need help with LUA scripts I can share mine ; they allow you to conduct the forces evaluation along a predetermined path and save each result by distance in a .txt file so you can use it in, lets say excel and analize the graphic like I have done in another posts:

http://www.overunity.com/13303/requesting-decent-analysis-on-femm-simulation-data

http://www.overunity.com/12503/need-some-help-with-magnetic-field-simulation-data-analysis/

Offline ace569er

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Re: V gate question
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2013, 02:34:01 AM »
The second paragraph confuses me a little. I'll have to look in to the program. To understand more.

   Any way I made my design using tapered metal plates, as a v gate substitute. Because I currently lack 668 1/4'' magnets, to make the real thing. It run for just under a hour. Then the plates became saturated and it stopped... :( ...Also I noticed that it has to be big enough for the spaces between gates to be a minimum of 2''. Because there is always a 1'' sticky point no matter how you set it up or what size. Which that greatly confuses me why it's always roughly an inch. On both a 3inch radius wheel as while as a 2foot radius wheel. Can any one explain that?
   I had to do a 1' radius to get it to spin for almost an hour.   So I am really confused why it wouldn't work, if I can get around the saturation. By using neo's.... I'll send a layout, if I can't figure out the program you mentioned. So you can test it, if you like. Though I prefer real world tests, simulations work, right, most of the time.
   I recently found a configuration that has 10 always pushing 1. twice as much, as the one I tested. Sadly it most be a radius of 4 feet to make the armature arms and gates 2inches plus apart. So I'm not building it.....

Offline ace569er

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Re: V gate question
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2013, 05:46:17 AM »
Yeah.....I'm lost with FEMM. I do not feel like figuring that program out. You made it sound easy...

Offline shadowpt

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Re: V gate question
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2013, 02:18:21 PM »
I will gladly test it out for you, just share the design and I will put it in FEMM if it can be simulated in 2d environment.
The best thing about running simulations is that you can make a configuration that you want very easily and you dont need to worry about getting the tools/magnets for it and it gives you a much better perspective one what is going on and the values that is returning.

I was like you the first time I played with FEMM, didn't understand a thing about it but after a couple of youtube tutorials I understood the basic functions that I needed to handle the program and then it became easy.

Offline ace569er

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Re: V gate question
« Reply #9 on: February 16, 2013, 05:36:03 AM »
Sure I PM the specs to you. I was thinking it's mainly nice because it's cheaper than buying $120 worth of 1/4" neo's.

Offline ace569er

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Re: V gate question
« Reply #10 on: February 16, 2013, 06:04:37 AM »
Well I can't add stuff to a PM.........lame, damn.......

Offline mangyhyena

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Re: V gate question
« Reply #11 on: April 19, 2013, 02:30:38 AM »
One thing I've wondered about is substituting coils for magnets in a vgate formation.  Shouldn't the coils repel a magnet traveling down the V as they transduce electricity?  Also, if the coils in the next V formation are not shorted or loaded, wouldn't they allow the magnet into the gate because they wouldn't repel it?  Maybe short or load them after the magnet has entered, driving the magnet toward the next V to repeat the cycle?

For that matter, couldn't the coils in a magneto be left "open" as the magnet approaches, then loaded or shorted as the magnet passes by it?  Seems like that would eliminate repulsion against rotation, then repel the magnet as it passes, driving rotation.

There is a lot about coils I don't understand, so probably none of that is correct.  I just thought timing the loading of the coils might help generate electricity using less input energy.  All this is based on my assumption that unloaded coils don't repel the magnet as it approaches or passes.  Just figured if you kept the coil unloaded as the magnet approaches, then load or short the coil as the magnet is leaving, you might see the coil "kick" the magnet away in the direction of rotation.

If it were that easy, though, folks like you all would have licked this free energy thing a long time ago.