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Author Topic: Has An Important Property Of Fluids Been Overlooked ?  (Read 44993 times)

Offline minnie

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Re: Has An Important Property Of Fluids Been Overlooked ?
« Reply #60 on: December 03, 2012, 05:15:53 PM »
Hi
   I was looking at it as if gravity was a spring, pulling two things together. Yes, a spring can do some work, but you have
to put that energy into the spring to start with, once it's gone, it's gone!
                                      John.

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Offline johnny874

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Re: Has An Important Property Of Fluids Been Overlooked ?
« Reply #61 on: December 03, 2012, 05:53:05 PM »
Hi
   I was looking at it as if gravity was a spring, pulling two things together. Yes, a spring can do some work, but you have
to put that energy into the spring to start with, once it's gone, it's gone!
                                      John.

  Minnie,
 Here is what I posted in besslerwheel.com and will post in the same titled thread in this forum.
 @Aman, the show is Numb3rs, season 4, episode 69. Watch the 10 minute mark. They show Heron's Fountain.
The previous post about Bessler;
Quote from: daanopperman
daxwc ,
             The pendulum will destroy the wheel if any decrease or increase in wheel rpm takes place .
   daanopperman,
  I'll give away what Bessler has said many times, the weights work together. When both pendulums are falling together, one on each side of the wheel, their blows to the wheel will be cushioned by the water they are pumping.
 This also allows the pendulum moving upwards towards top center to do as much work as the one moving downward not wasting any potential.
 With a 4:1 ratio and to weights working together, the ratio baloons up to 8:1. And if you have as an example 98n-m's of torque, it would easily move 5kg's of water.
 The torque would be equivalent to 10 kg's at 1 meter. It would take 1.25 kg's at a ratio of 8:1 to generate that much force.
 And as Bessler would say, simple enough for him to understand. I'm still amazed by what the guy knew.
 Kind of why I am willing to spend the money and what time it takes me, his work is worth more than what it will cost me  :-)
edited to add, when Bessler said he made more pulleys and levers, the pulleys would be for connecting the levers/pendulums so they work together. Where you have pulley's, you also have lines/chords/ropes, etc.
edited to add; Stefan Hartmann, moderator of overunity.com has let me know he is interested in seeing me post more videos detailing different aspects of Bessler's wheel. Since it will take time for the build I am doing, I will in the next week r so be posting some vidoes show how Bessler's water pumps worked as well as how his levers/penulums might have worked together. I have let Stefan know that I think Bessler would be something close to a genius for the work he accomplished.
 
                                                                 Jim
edited to add; made a quick video showing how 2 opposing levers move in a wheel and suggest how they might work together.
 The other links are for how much over balance is required to rotate a wheel and also a demonstration of a basic water pump shooting water which Bessler did mention that his weights "shot out".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sFE9Gz8A-c8&feature=youtu.be
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PJRhqXdRrbg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOl2dJaavS8
with pumps, when one pumps or discharges, it will be into another pump above it on the wheel. If you watch the first link, imagine as the wheel rotating that it is constantly pumping water upwards into an empty chamber. And once you can understand that, then you can start to understand everything Bessler said. And hopefully everything he wrote won't be made known so some people can realize some things for themselves.

Offline fletcher

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Re: Has An Important Property Of Fluids Been Overlooked ?
« Reply #62 on: December 03, 2012, 08:48:41 PM »
Thanks Red & TK, minnie etc - I have computer & on-going internet connections problems so will be back to discuss when I can.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Has An Important Property Of Fluids Been Overlooked ?
« Reply #62 on: December 03, 2012, 08:48:41 PM »
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Offline minnie

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Re: Has An Important Property Of Fluids Been Overlooked ?
« Reply #63 on: December 03, 2012, 11:01:12 PM »
Hi Fletcher,
                you could well have got mixed up with the spring thing. We were arguing whether gravity is a force or energy.
I felt that gravity was only a force. I likened it to a spring in that to make a spring have energy you have to tension it.
Although not quite there, the fellow with his copper pipe has made a real good effort.
I've got a couple of questions but I'll leave it for now as it sounds as if you're very busy at the moment and also have internet
probs. I'm really enjoying it, thank you for giving your time,
                                                                                             John.


Offline Aman Shah

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Re: Has An Important Property Of Fluids Been Overlooked ?
« Reply #64 on: December 04, 2012, 06:13:07 PM »
Hi
   I was looking at it as if gravity was a spring, pulling two things together. Yes, a spring can do some work, but you have
to put that energy into the spring to start with, once it's gone, it's gone!
                                      John.

Strange thought!
Anyway,what made you think this.Have you come across any research papers related to quantum physics,suggesting this hypothesis?If yes,then this may be interesting.

please answer.
..............................................................
Let me just tell all of you that something needs capacity to do work on a body at a height to let it fall down.Nothing can fall down without doing any external work on it.If some body falls down without external work on it ,it would mean you have not supplied energy to move that body.It would then mean anything would move on its own without supply of energy.This would be violation of law of Thermodyanamics.It would be like Output without input energy.

Hence gravitational force is associated with Gravitational energy.And hence gravity is both Force as well as Energy.

Energy is capacity to do work.

The creation of force needs energy.
Just think logically.

This is like,most of you guys are telling that force and energy can be seperate quantities,out of which any one is needed to move a body,but it cannot be true.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Has An Important Property Of Fluids Been Overlooked ?
« Reply #64 on: December 04, 2012, 06:13:07 PM »
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Offline minnie

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Re: Has An Important Property Of Fluids Been Overlooked ?
« Reply #65 on: December 04, 2012, 06:41:39 PM »
Hi,
    what I've been looking at is in the context of a little toy we were trying to make. I just felt that gravity just pulls two masses
together and to put energy into the system we must pull them apart.
    I honestly haven't a clue about gravitational energy and quasars or whatever, just my thoughts on making  a curiosity here
on Earth.
    I'm just enjoying a few of Fletcher's ideas and really appreciate being put right by others who know a lot more than me.
What I have learned is even if we get our toy to work it won't have much power unless built on a massive scale.
                                                              John

Offline Aman Shah

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Re: Has An Important Property Of Fluids Been Overlooked ?
« Reply #66 on: December 04, 2012, 06:49:18 PM »
Hi,
    what I've been looking at is in the context of a little toy we were trying to make. I just felt that gravity just pulls two masses
together and to put energy into the system we must pull them apart.
    I honestly haven't a clue about gravitational energy and quasars or whatever, just my thoughts on making  a curiosity here
on Earth.
    I'm just enjoying a few of Fletcher's ideas and really appreciate being put right by others who know a lot more than me.
What I have learned is even if we get our toy to work it won't have much power unless built on a massive scale.
                                                              John
Thanks Minnie.I hope you can also learn quiet a good amount of information by visiting my blog on Bessler wheels.Do visit all my articles on my blog on Bessler wheels.com

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Has An Important Property Of Fluids Been Overlooked ?
« Reply #66 on: December 04, 2012, 06:49:18 PM »
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Offline minnie

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Re: Has An Important Property Of Fluids Been Overlooked ?
« Reply #67 on: December 04, 2012, 08:31:51 PM »
Hi,
   thank you Aman. I found your blog O.K. and there's quite a bit for me to take in. I think about these concepts
as I'm doing my job, then I come back to it for another go.
                                                                                      John.

Offline Aman Shah

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Re: Has An Important Property Of Fluids Been Overlooked ?
« Reply #68 on: December 04, 2012, 08:41:32 PM »
Welcome.Do read all the 4 articles as of now of my blog.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Has An Important Property Of Fluids Been Overlooked ?
« Reply #68 on: December 04, 2012, 08:41:32 PM »
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Offline fletcher

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Re: Has An Important Property Of Fluids Been Overlooked ?
« Reply #69 on: December 04, 2012, 10:54:55 PM »
@ All ..

Back on line.
 
 To complete the concept ..
 
 I set out in this thread with the intention to come up with a POP mechanism that could be built & tested for validity & I went thru a series of progressive & more complex steps, building a picture to a reciprocating or rotary device.
 
 The crux of any asymmetric device is the ability to find balance in one configuration & unbalance in another.
 
 I said that I had a new type of theoretical balance mechanism that could achieve that goal - it had similarities to the Roberval Balance - the Roberval has torque issues & will remain upright with the use of a wide base for support - this one does not, IINM.
 
 I propose that my non compressible fluid lever & pantograph balance has no torque wherever a mass is applied in a symmetrical system.
 
 Mass & pressure are scalar quantities - they can be vectored as forces - the use of the pantograph parallelogram redirects weight force to the other side of a symmetrical non compressible fluid filled enclosed container [i.e. pascals principle of undiminished pressure transmission re hydrostatics] - the pantograph is rigidly attached to the fluid container - pressures & forces are spread evenly throughout the liquid, all forces are in equilibrium therefore there is no torque & the system is balanced - the system self adjusts for different mass loadings - like the hydrostatic paradox the total weight of the system is the combined masses however the contention is that torque can be removed.
 
 The 'balance apparatus' does not work upside down & is unbalanced.

Offline johnny874

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Re: Has An Important Property Of Fluids Been Overlooked ?
« Reply #70 on: December 04, 2012, 11:44:12 PM »
Until you can demontrate actual quantum gravity effects as being important as the scale of Bessler wheels (or any size other  than Planck scale),  the Newtownian view of the world works just fine for detemining that what you propose is impossible.

  Gianna,
 What Bessler realized is something everyone over looks. For what Fletcher is discussing can be found in Bessler's drawings and with examples of how balance can be shifted.
 I think the problem this creates is that if someone wants an original solution using fluids as a means of propulsion that it will be difficult. This could be why so many dislike me in these forums. it is not because I came up with the answer but because Bessler did a long time ago.
 Even in besslerwheel.com they will not discuss what he knew of engineering. It does not allow them to talk about what they might know. But for a rotating wheel, I doubt anyone will improve upon Bessler's work.
 
                                                                                                                                        Jim

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Has An Important Property Of Fluids Been Overlooked ?
« Reply #70 on: December 04, 2012, 11:44:12 PM »
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Offline Red_Sunset

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Re: Has An Important Property Of Fluids Been Overlooked ?
« Reply #71 on: December 05, 2012, 06:46:19 AM »
@ All ..
Back on line.
  To complete the concept ..
 

Hi Fletcher,
You appear to be changing the design for certain good reasons you might have.  These mods are not very clear without you addressing the underlying reasons why you are doing so.  I am not disputing if the concept works or doesn't work, sure a practical proof can surprise us all.
From a pure reasoning standpoint, I still do not see how you are going to get away with a buoyancy concept that can not displace fluid because the fluid is fully enclosed and pressurized.  You have not expanded on that point.  The logic you are using is jumping over a logical step that is critical in the natural process, ignoring this step allows you to reach your conclusion.  But this makes the conclusion incomplete and premature.  Do you have any replies on previous reply posts that address this process?

The new design with the truss and sliding pivots needs some more explanation from you side to be clear what you are intending to achieve with it? and its difference with the previous designs. The scale below the beam should be sufficient to demonstrate the concept. A practical working design can be a separate exercise.
Regards, Michel

Offline minnie

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Re: Has An Important Property Of Fluids Been Overlooked ?
« Reply #72 on: December 05, 2012, 07:58:05 PM »
Hi,
    I take it that the red T shape associated with the piston is a locking pin.
                                                                John.

Offline fletcher

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Re: Has An Important Property Of Fluids Been Overlooked ?
« Reply #73 on: December 05, 2012, 09:40:45 PM »
Yes John, else the mass would act on the lhs piston in a hydraulics fashion & displace fluid volume & move the rhs piston upwards compensatorily - I want the mass to use its own weight force to increase internal fluid pressure [P = F / A] until equilibrium of forces is achieved at the lhs piston interface - however the overall system is still not in equilibrium of forces because there is no opposing force acting downwards against the rhs piston [locked] - hence the need for the pantograph [parallelogram of forces] to provide an equal down thrust [force] to rhs piston - since the force source is the masses weight force which is applied over the piston surface area to create higher fluid internal pressure & the piston area is doubled with the inclusion of the pantograph mechanism acting on the rhs piston then the internal fluid pressure increase is halved, but the system has now established equilibrium of forces at both piston interfaces - it is balanced i.e. no torque, IINM.

Offline fletcher

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Re: Has An Important Property Of Fluids Been Overlooked ?
« Reply #74 on: December 05, 2012, 11:58:35 PM »

Hi Fletcher,

You appear to be changing the design for certain good reasons you might have.  These mods are not very clear without you addressing the underlying reasons why you are doing so.  I am not disputing if the concept works or doesn't work, sure a practical proof can surprise us all.


Michel .. it can't be all bad, its only taken 5 pages & two weeks & the noise level has been low & discussion civil.


Quote from: Red

From a pure reasoning standpoint, I still do not see how you are going to get away with a buoyancy concept that can not displace fluid because the fluid is fully enclosed and pressurized.  You have not expanded on that point.  The logic you are using is jumping over a logical step that is critical in the natural process, ignoring this step allows you to reach your conclusion.  But this makes the conclusion incomplete and premature.  Do you have any replies on previous reply posts that address this process?



Well Michel you seem to be fixated on Archimedes buoyancy of an open system as the only means of producing upthrust - as I've taken pains to point numerously that Archimedes volume displacement buoyancy where the fluid medium density remains uniform is certainly one kind of buoyancy & the best known - but Archimedes isn't the only type of buoyancy/upthrust - the upward force experienced on an object in the final analysis is due to [e.g. using a cube or cylinder analogy] the pressure differential above & below that object, however the pressure differential was created - for example types of pseudo buoyancy are hovercraft [where pressure beneath is higher than above], pucks on air tables [same reason as previous], aircraft in straight & level flight at constant velocity [here lift force equals weight force but the engine provides the thrust to overcome drag which is substantially less than lift & weight force i.e. the four forces are in equilibrium but not equal] - these forms of "buoyancy equivalent" don't rely on equal mass & volume displacement but require an input of energy to create that pressure differential - in my case I am using gravity force to create its own underside pressure increase in an enclosed non compressible fluid system.

If you use simulation software for example you can create buoyancy force in either of two ways - in an open system calculate the fluid displacement & if you know its density you can make a direct comparison to the weight of fluid displaced etc - that's the simple way & the most common - the other is to calculate from fluid pressure levels - since we know the density of the fluid, for example water, we know that 10 meter head has 14.7 PSI so we can calculate the pressure & vector force on a surface area at any depth in the fluid - the net [assuming we zero out 1 atmospheric pressure starting point] when we convert to a vector force gives us the same buoyancy/upthrust force as volume displacement method - this means that anytime we know the pressure increase we can calculate the upthrust of an immersed object or in this case an object unable to penetrate the fluid but still having created an increase in fluid pressure by virtue of applying its own weight force to that enclosed fluid.


Quote from: Red

The new design with the truss and sliding pivots needs some more explanation from you side to be clear what you are intending to achieve with it? and its difference with the previous designs. The scale below the beam should be sufficient to demonstrate the concept. A practical working design can be a separate exercise.

Regards, Michel


See my above post to minnie [John] - the pantograph demonstrates parallelogram of forces which every text book on leverage & forces shows - the top pivot in my diagram is fixed to the rigid upright & the bottom pivot has the ability to slide up & down but not laterally, as I have shown - equally the bottom pivot could be anchored & the top have the ability to slide vertically but then there would be a tendency for the pantograph arms to move outwards rather than inwards - since the fluid volume & density for all intents & purposes doesn't change however, this is arbitrary - this is a concept & not presented as a final & most efficient engineering solution.

P.S. you will note that the diagram above is symmetrical around the vertical y axis [except for the mass weight] instead of back to back structures symmetrical about the x axis as before.

 

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