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Author Topic: The Paradox Engine  (Read 91130 times)

Offline Tusk

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Re: The Paradox Engine
« Reply #90 on: December 29, 2013, 07:37:41 AM »
Quote
What if you could tweak the concept a bit, use some electromagnetic paradoxes to achieve an ever increasing rotation speed with a constant electric input.

I'm up to my neck in paradox already thanks broli  :) Having grown up with a father who was an electronics engineer (although that was valves and big bakelite knobs) and now with a son likewise qualified, I can admit to not having even a hint of that mental capacity which lends itself to understanding this most perplexing subject. If you suspect there is an improvement to be made in this area, someone else will no doubt be able to follow your line of thinking. My own efforts are simply aimed at presenting the fundamental concept as it presented itself to me, in the hope others might pick up on the potential and take it to the next level.

Quote
refer to the video description for explanation.

Until you realize the Freudian whiplash.

Over my head, but I assume the idea has a flaw? From a mechanical/inertial point of view there appears to be no way to secure an advantage, but once those currants start moving around in those pipes.......  ;D

Quote
In the real world I would see that the spin up can happen faster than the spin down

The spin up is certainly more rapid webby1, but note that applies only in the FoR of the rotor arm; in the observer FoR the rate of acceleration and final rotation of the disk should be equal, but here again we slip across into EM theory. Does the assist (in the rotor arm FoR) from the inertia of the disk make it easier or more difficult for the EM drive to accelerate the disk as before?

The data suggests that if anything it may make it easier but certainly not more difficult, with peak power being lower for the 'rotor arm free' mode. This is assuming that having the EM drive active for the same period will result in the same final rate of rotation (disk - FoR observer). As I inferred earlier, I can see an argument for and against the rotational acceleration being reduced here.

The argument 'for' involves point of force motion, with the disk 'running away' from the EM point of force more rapidly due to the inertial assist (this seems counter intuitive, would the disk really accelerate less rapidly while having that acceleration assisted?).

The argument 'against' seems to be that with EM effects (and indeed cycles) being so rapid, point of force motion has limited effect, allowing a constant acceleration at little or no additional cost.

Again, data seems to confirm the latter. I'd like to carry on with that linear example, because it presents in a less convoluted way and might be a better vehicle for discussion and comprehension of the various phenomena. With this example I've replaced the EM drive unit with an EM drive rail (like a rail gun I suppose); and allowed that the disk can be accelerated rotationally as shown while having the secondary reaction manifesting linear acceleration along a guide rail, again as shown.

If the 'disk' consisted of an outer circular rod of large mass yet small radial cross section, we might allow that the two equal forces (applied force and secondary reaction) produce a rate of rotation and linear motion which are comparable in terms of KE (since the same mass is accelerated directly by equal force in both instances).

This then (if accepted) leads to the conclusion (by conventional thinking) that the sum of these energies must be equal to the total energy spent producing the two motions. With the point of force motion issue (due to the linear acceleration) the EM effect may be directed along the rail with little effort beyond that of maintaining a single point of force. Any given point of the disk itself will of course have something like twice the velocity (over the EM rail) of that imparted by rotation alone, due to the linear motion. But we can 'chase' the required point of force along as it accelerates electromagnetically, using sensors etc (or so I am told).

So much for my frame of reference manipulation - the 'second phenomenon' - it seems that EM drive systems are not limited by such concerns. Serves me right for initially contemplating application of the first phenomenon using means other than an EM drive system (from memory I was dabbling in springs, collisions and even human power)  :o

As a benchmark with this example we might first motivate the disk and note the period of time required for the disk to reach point C on the drive rail. Then we might secure the disk and rotate it without allowing linear motion. Applying the same force would result in X rate of rotation after a period equal to the period required for the disk to reach point C in the benchmark linear acceleration test, after which power would be cut. The equivalent of our 'rotor free' test on the PE apparatus we once more allow the disk it's linear motion along the guide rail. Since the force applied would be equal to the previous static test, the secondary reaction at the axis (being equal) would induce a linear acceleration comparable to the rotational acceleration (i.e. equivalent to X rate of rotation converted to linear motion) which in this instance would again result in X rate of rotation at point C. As the secondary reaction manifests regardless of whether or not the linear motion is allowed to manifest, the same energy is expended in both instances.

Once again, the question of point of force motion arises, except that in this example the disk rotation is unassisted by inertia (as deduced by broli earlier):

Quote
in the rotating version a rotation of the wheel would arise due to its inertia. While no such "spontaneous" rotation appears in the linear version.

This is correct, the point of force motion in this instance consists of the normal acceleration of the disk, exactly as it would appear in the static test, and the linear acceleration which is accounted for by rapid EM 'switching' along the EM rail according to the position of the disk, which seems to cost us nothing, or very little; 'rail guns' might be considered a good example of the advantages of this effect.

But then I have admitted to a poor grasp of matters electronic (and therefore EM); so fire away, I still have a human powered version up my sleeve  ;D   

 

 
« Last Edit: December 29, 2013, 01:18:23 PM by Tusk »

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Re: The Paradox Engine
« Reply #90 on: December 29, 2013, 07:37:41 AM »

Offline Tusk

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Re: The Paradox Engine
« Reply #91 on: December 30, 2013, 08:18:14 AM »
Quote
I just ran a stupid and simple test,, not that it should be needed when you have MIT showing the same stuff.

No better way to come to grips than going 'hands on' to see for yourself webby1. My own curiosity led down a similar path, although admittedly that was long before the M.I.T. document surfaced.

It's really quite magical, don't you agree? While these simple collisions are not manifesting energy above the initial condition, having proof positive that we get two equal forces for the cost of one fairly shouts 'OU potential'.

This is still my personal favourite (it took several months to come up with the idea):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zi8k3PMUM6k&feature=youtu.be

I'm still unsure how it impacts on Newton's Third Law of Motion, or at least the common interpretation of it.

How about 'every action has an equal and opposite reaction, except those actions which have two equal and opposite reactions  :o

Offline Tusk

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Re: The Paradox Engine
« Reply #92 on: December 30, 2013, 03:22:06 PM »
Quote
My take on Inertia,, it is the force of not wanting to see any change.

Thanks webby1; at least we can now put a name to the general lack of enthusiasm.

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Re: The Paradox Engine
« Reply #92 on: December 30, 2013, 03:22:06 PM »
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Offline telecom

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Re: The Paradox Engine
« Reply #93 on: December 30, 2013, 05:08:49 PM »
Hi Tusk and webby1,
can you please explain in a layman terms what you have discovered?
I'm trying to follow the thread, but I can't understand it, need you to shed more light on
something what perhaps  is very clear to you, but vague to me!
What exactly that video is supposed to prove?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zi8k3PMUM6k&feature=youtu.be

Offline Tusk

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Re: The Paradox Engine
« Reply #94 on: December 31, 2013, 07:35:04 AM »
First in reply to this from telecom:

Quote
What exactly that video is supposed to prove?

I think webby1 did a reasonable job with his answer. I would add that the additional motion (rotation) manifests simply by shifting the point of application of force. The rotation is justified in CoM by allowing that angular momentum is unchanged; which typically seems to foster the view of 'nothing to see here, please move on' in those less open to possibility. But personally I found the sudden realisation that two forces appear where before there was only one, each with the same value as the first, not only surprising but suggestive of OU potential.

With the rotational condition the point of force motion is of course greater (than the linear only condition) when the resultant linear motion is allowed to manifest. Thus the PE apparatus, which demonstrates one method of overcoming this problem by frame of reference manipulation (another method for advancing point of force motion at little or no cost is EM switching, as with a rail gun).

So at this point we finally manifest two forces for the cost of one, along with the consequent motions. Unfortunately the dynamics of the device are apparently so convoluted, and the phenomena involved so unconventional and poorly understood, that the significance and veracity of the concept becomes unclear at best, and downright laughable for those prepared to venture an opinion after a brief scan of the basic principles and conclusions.

Quote
Right now I am mulling over the internal difference in rate of applied force.

From the internal reference frame of the disc, when it is in a constant state it is not in motion, it is only when that constant state is disturbed that the disc observes and reacts to an external thing and that makes me wonder about the observed rate.

The data from the test runs suggests a linear rate webby1, for rotor secure and rotor free. The measurements are taken from the FoR of the rotor arm, but I would expect a linear rate in the observers FoR with the rotor arm free (observer and rotor arm FoR is the same in rotor secure mode). This because the loss of the additional inertial rotational motion (of the disk) in the FoR of the rotor arm (or lack of, as we would observe it) is directly proportional to the rate of rotation of the rotor arm itself; which rate will also prove to be linear due to the constancy of the applied and thus secondary reactive force.

I think the suggested use of your mechanical rectifier along with regenerative braking at the drive unit might actually provide the simplest solution (in engineering terms). I would still like to see two identical disks (for maximum efficiency) but the idea of gearing the rotor arm output in order to reduce the rate of rotation is excellent. In this way, the additional inertial rotation of the disk can be minimised so eliminating any concerns about reduction of disk rotation during rotor arm braking, disk braking and reversal of the rotor arm. A neat solution - engineering opportunities abound.





 

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Re: The Paradox Engine
« Reply #94 on: December 31, 2013, 07:35:04 AM »
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Offline telecom

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Re: The Paradox Engine
« Reply #95 on: December 31, 2013, 05:25:15 PM »
First in reply to this from telecom:



With the rotational condition the point of force motion is of course greater (than the linear only condition) when the resultant linear motion is allowed to manifest. Thus the PE apparatus, which demonstrates one method of overcoming this problem by frame of reference manipulation (another method for advancing point of force motion at little or no cost is EM switching, as with a rail gun).

So at this point we finally manifest two forces for the cost of one, along with the consequent motions. Unfortunately the dynamics of the device are apparently so convoluted, and the phenomena involved so unconventional and poorly understood, that the significance and veracity of the concept becomes unclear at best, and downright laughable for those prepared to venture an opinion after a brief scan of the basic principles and conclusions.





These results make me perplexed, to say the least, but as someone said, facts are the stubborn thing.
After all, nobody really knows what the electricity is, but now can't live w/o it ! So, in your apparatus, Tusk,
you are applying EM pulses towards the disk off centre, and by doing it, you generate two equal motions, one linear
of the centre of mass, which is the axis of the disk, and another rotational, getting two for one.The linear is being converted also into the rotational about the centre of the rotating arm. Nobody limits us by using only one disk, you can put 10 disks if you wish,
and each one should generate twice the input. Am I correct in this observation?

Hi webby1, can you please explain how your force multiplicator works in more details, would like to know more about it.
Best regards.

Offline telecom

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Re: The Paradox Engine
« Reply #96 on: December 31, 2013, 07:43:19 PM »
Hi webby1,
I meant your mechanical rectifier, and its application towards the Tusk's device.
regards.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The Paradox Engine
« Reply #96 on: December 31, 2013, 07:43:19 PM »
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Offline Tusk

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Re: The Paradox Engine
« Reply #97 on: January 01, 2014, 02:22:53 AM »
There is a small problem with this idea webby1:

Quote
The second ring of induction coils goes around the larger circle described by the outside edge of the disc as the arm rotates, this is the regenerative system.

I did already look at this since (as you observed) the resistance from the regenerative braking will create a rotor arm rotation in the same direction as the applied force from the EM drive unit, but with the disk rotation going in the opposite direction the energy in the system is tending to cancel itself out. In other words, the magnets embedded in the disk might actually pass over the outer ring of induction coils with virtually zero velocity other than the radial motion as both their disk and rotor arm radial directions lined up additively.

If the rotor arm were geared to significantly reduce rotation rate this would be much less of an issue, so yes the idea has merit.

Offline Tusk

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Re: The Paradox Engine
« Reply #98 on: January 01, 2014, 10:52:43 AM »
lol webby1, you are starting to get ahead of me; no doubt your mechanical engineering abilities coming into play.

Quote
The "faster" motion of change between the magnet and induction coil is in a straight line out from the arm axle,, the disc magnet, from the point of view of the induction coil, is popping over and then back away,, I look at like the teeth on a gear set,, they do not have any difference in rotation rate but each tooth face has a fast slide in and out of the valley of the other gear.

I'm not so sure about this. I would have thought the optimum arrangement would be to have the disk magnets racing over the induction coils as fast as possible. Your point that recovering the energy at a lesser rate still allows a full recovery is doubtful to me. That may be so with a strictly mechanical (and frictionless) system but with EM induction isn't it all about velocity (i.e. rotation rate)?

For example, I could set up a flywheel and have the axle/shaft function as a geared output, attached to a dynamo. It would be possible I think to 'waste' the stored energy by setting the gears to a low rate of rotation, with the dynamo turning slowly; or turn the dynamo rapidly and generate a useful voltage. Theoretically the same energy is recovered but from a practical viewpoint the low voltage recovery is less useful. This may be a case of poor knowledge/interpretation of electrical theory on my part, but that is my understanding.   

Quote
the resistance from the regenerative system does not have a "direct" negative feedback,, so the disc could spin and the arm could rotate with only a small slip angle over the coils,, yes smaller output but then it just spins down for a longer time

I'm not quite sure what you mean by 'the small slip angle over the coils', you lost me with what I assume to be an engineering term. It would seem however that you have managed to navigate through the material without losing your bearings, and now have a fairly thorough grasp of the thing; which probably means that much of your spare time is spent trying to find the mistake  :) 

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Re: The Paradox Engine
« Reply #98 on: January 01, 2014, 10:52:43 AM »
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Offline Tusk

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Re: The Paradox Engine
« Reply #99 on: January 01, 2014, 05:53:52 PM »
You've given me plenty to think about there webby1  :)

Quote
I will assume that you have used some method to determine the force value of the arm while you are spinning up the disc

Not so much, other experiments with different apparatus were conducted to confirm the equality of the two forces. Unfortunately the PE apparatus was assembled before I had the chance to weigh the various components, but an estimate along with predicted consequent rates of rotation and actual rates suggest that the physics is holding.

Quote
in one view the magnet on the disc is moving in two directions at the same time,, it is spinning via it's axle AND the arm is rotating,, this is what I mean by slip.

It comes from flying small aircraft with a buddy that used to be a fighter pilot,, this was years ago,,in a very strong cross-wind he could slip the plane down and onto the runway very smoothly,, seeing the window I was sitting next to heading down the runway and then at the last second snapping the tail around so the plane was lined up straight

Flying gliders (years ago) I employed the technique on many occasions; quite possibly the rather pressing requirement to get it right first time has permeated my approach to other pursuits, thus my caution on this point. Your description becomes more clear, but I'm still not sure about the velocity issue:

Quote
this will be a low resistance induction unit to maximize its resistance to the disc magnet passing,, each coil will see many pulses as the arm is bringing the disc towards it, over it and then taking the disc magnets away from it.

As I admitted earlier, EM theory is not my best suit; it sounds plausible but I'll need to think on it more, and probably consult with an electronics engineer. You seem confident with it and appear to understand the issues so I'll accept the premise tentatively while I look into it further. I can't imagine what an engineering nightmare it would be to design a production version of this, talk about the need to get it right... all these options and no precedent. Serious challenges, thankfully my only concern is furnishing a comprehensible and credible proof of concept.


Offline telecom

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Re: The Paradox Engine
« Reply #100 on: January 01, 2014, 06:53:40 PM »
Perhaps it will be beneficial to use two Tusk's apparatus side by side.
When one EM drive is braking and works as a generator, it sends the energy
to another EM drive to accelerate the disc and vice versa.

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Re: The Paradox Engine
« Reply #100 on: January 01, 2014, 06:53:40 PM »
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Offline telecom

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Re: The Paradox Engine
« Reply #101 on: January 01, 2014, 09:42:37 PM »
I was thinking of 2 discs and 1 arm,, while one disc is being spun up by the drive unit the other disc is being slowed down by the regenerative unit,, creating a more balanced output force maybe.
The discs should have an opposite rotation to help each other?
Still will be needed some kind of a power transfer between the FoR to compensate for the losses...

Offline telecom

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Re: The Paradox Engine
« Reply #102 on: January 02, 2014, 01:35:07 AM »
The direction you force the magnet\disc into moving is the same direction the arm will move,, that is why I went with the outside regenerative system, it will try and move the disc\magnet such that the arm will move in the same direction while they are trying to slow the disc down as the drive unit trying to speed it up.

Any *forced* change in RPM of the disc will create a change in the arm.

Webby1,
do you have any idea how electrically connect the disks EM drive and the rotating arm's output to make the current circulate?

Offline telecom

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Re: The Paradox Engine
« Reply #103 on: January 02, 2014, 02:45:58 AM »
You could use induction coupling,, a transformer does not need to have direct contact.

I have a Sonicare toothbrush,, you place the toothbrush handle in the charging cradle and it charges up the battery, no contacts involved, I would suppose that one could take the toothbrush apart and use it,, or it may be much better to build one from scratch.

Wireless power transmission on such a short range is fairly straight forward nowadays,, but all that kind of stuff is outside of my scope of abilities.

Thinking to myself,, the Sonicare has a built in system to run a drive coil to move the magnets that move the brush,, change the frequency of that and you might be able to have the whole drive system and controller,,,
I think what you are talking about only works with a very small air gap.
Probably sliding contacts could do the job...

Offline Tusk

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Re: The Paradox Engine
« Reply #104 on: January 02, 2014, 07:23:21 AM »
Wander off for a few hours around here and you have to spend hours trying to catch up  :)

(from webby1)

Quote
I am assuming that the rate of rotation of the disc, or its RPM does not matter,, and nor does the RPM of the arm.

I deliberately restricted my thinking to an inertial device, so yes as it stands the disk at least would always be either accelerating or decelerating. If it turns out that the outer ring braking essentially works like inertia we might run the device at a constant rate (disk and/or rotor arm) adjusting the brake force as required. But I will say at this point that we are in uncharted territory here, due to the difficulty just getting the basic idea 'out there' as it stands I had to leave some work undone. But at first glance I don't see any obstacles with this, yet. 

Quote
in a sense the disc is responding like an object under the influence of gravity, an influence that you are creating

I guess you could think of it that way, since we are dealing with a constant force (at least that is the intention). Similar then to the often proposed 'gravity wheel' where I believe the goal is to somehow manipulate gravity so that it effects one side more than the other. Here we supply the force which creates a bias in the reaction; bias is opportunity.

Quote
while one disc is being spun up by the drive unit the other disc is being slowed down by the regenerative unit

I imagine there is a myriad of possible arrangements worth considering, with various benefits. I'll need to think about this one, it may just offer a smoother cycle and reduce wear and tear.

Quote
All you need to do is to be able to demonstrate the effect and that the impact of that effect is less than the cost of the effect,, I think you may be close to, if not being able to, do all that ,, so I think you have it right so far.

Thanks webby1, I would not have rolled this out if I didn't believe that the combined weight of the theory and experimental data was sufficient proof; I had not allowed for the understandable disbelief and difficulty experienced by others attempting to follow my logic. Those aspects of the theory which test credibility are I think covered by the data. But 'joining the dots' as it were, requires some willingness and effort, so I appreciate your tolerance and determination.

(and this from telecom)

Quote
The discs should have an opposite rotation to help each other?

With a twin disk setup if one disk rotates clockwise then so too the other. This creates opposing secondary reactions at the disk axes on opposite sides of the rotor arm, ergo additive forces (and no excess baggage of a counter balance as with the single disk setup).     


 

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