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Author Topic: Single circuits generate nuclear reactions  (Read 433009 times)

allcanadian

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Re: Single circuits generate nuclear reactions
« Reply #300 on: May 20, 2008, 05:44:59 PM »
@Koen1
Quote
Yes, cathode ray tubes aka electron cannons do accellerate electrons... so what?
The problem we have is in the high speed beta particles.. We want to collect
them and their energy content, we don't want to make more or accellerate
them even more... We want to catch their energy.


That is a very good point ;) We know we are surrounded by energy the trick is utilizing what has always been present.
Henry Moray once said "The waves in the electric field about the charge have been set in oscillation and is what causes an associated magnetic field". Moray used specially constructed ionic, cold cathode tubes(doped with radium or thorium) to do this but the method proposed here would seem to work as well. An easier explanation for the generator you speak of could be that the "beta radiation" is just that---radiated energy, the properties of this energy determined by the frequency of oscillation of the field. The frequency of oscillation determined by the nature of the matter involved and the qualities of the disturbance which produced the oscillations in the first place.
As well it could be possible that the high energy-high frequency field generated in and around the carbon rod does not "produce" a magnetic field but excludes or repells all magnetic fields in which case the surrounding toroid would experience a changing magnetic field through exclusion unlike most conventional generators.

aleks

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Re: Single circuits generate nuclear reactions
« Reply #301 on: May 20, 2008, 06:05:13 PM »
One think I keep thinking about is free electrons that leave carbon rod as beta particles. This gap should be filled, so it is very probable that there are two energy waves happen. One wave is beta energy wave and the second wave is electrostatic wave.

(Of course, I'm still insisting that free electrons are not taken from the carbon due to nuclear decay, but they are accelerated by hypothesized DC acoustic waves: in this case, magnetic bias field is used to make free electrons more "fluid" and detached from the carbon rod and thus prone to free-field acceleration, without bias field electrons will end up energizing carbon rod itself).

Inventor81

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Re: Single circuits generate nuclear reactions
« Reply #302 on: May 20, 2008, 06:26:08 PM »
Well, sphere or cylinder collect charge, they become positively charged. In the end this generates electrostatic energy which is saturatable: a given piece of metal won't charge more than some fundamental space charge laws allow it to charge. Hence, it is inefficient. I think we should strive to use EM energies and displacement currents that are produced by beta electrons. In this case spheres and cylinders are unusable.

Aluminums ionization energy (my apostrophe does not work right now. This happens occasionally when my laptop is left on overnight and simply "reanimated") is approximately 18eV.


We have a particle with approximately 10^6 this energy.

We will likely only get 20% of the electrons this thing knocks out of the way, but thats still 200,000 electrons knocked loose per interaction. I think we are set if we use the electrostatic approach, but here is the kicker: we need to use a very thin layer of aluminum, and a very thin layer of a collector metal. The idea is the beta knocks electrons off the aluminum, shunts across the oxide layer, and collects on the backing layer. I have some experiments forthcoming. Having considerable difficulty determining if I have anything, as my scope and primary meter are inaccessible at this time.

Me = frustrated!

also, aleks: what are you referencing with the quote of my post?

Feynman

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Re: Single circuits generate nuclear reactions
« Reply #303 on: May 20, 2008, 06:31:51 PM »
@aleks

Quote
it is very probable that there are two energy waves happen. One wave is beta energy wave and the second wave is electrostatic wave.

I agree with this main idea as well, I was thinking about this same problem last night.

So in this process, some of our input electrons as getting converted to beta rays.  For now , let's not bother with how this is happening.  The point is that the 'extra energy' is because the emitted beta rays are much higher velocity than the electrons we are putting into the rod.  So perhaps some of these electrons are actually leaving the primary circuit!

Now my first thought is that this is bizarre, but then I thought ... well, it's similar to an LED which emits photons. My first thought was an LED changes an electron to a photon, but alas, this is not the case, because LED photon emission rather results from orbital excitatation and subsequent collapse, with no net loss of an electron.   So yes, here my analogy runs into a dead end.    :'(

So yes, I agree there are two process's here, one is the flow within the primary circuit (aka power source pulsing into the rod), and the other with waves of beta rays leaving the rod and interacting with the surrounding environment.

The thing I don't understand is if we are actually 'net' converting the input electrons to output beta rays, shouldn't we be accumulating a net positive charge somewhere?
« Last Edit: May 20, 2008, 07:31:41 PM by Feynman »

Creativity

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Re: Single circuits generate nuclear reactions
« Reply #304 on: May 20, 2008, 06:32:20 PM »
Yes, cathode ray tubes aka electron cannons do accellerate electrons... so what?
The problem we have is in the high speed beta particles.. We want to collect
them and their energy content, we don't want to make more or accellerate
them even more... We want to catch their energy.

Also, if there is only pulsed DC input and beta emission bursts, I don't really
see how AC could result in the collector coil...
Perhaps if there was AC input or if the magnetic field were alternated, then
it seems possible to get AC out as well... although I would expect a serious
DC bias on that if it occurs...
But hey, I haven't had my coffee yet so I may just be horribly off ;)

@Koen1
ok maybe i was not explicit enough,having too much of green tea makes me use shortcuts  ;D i propose to use electron cannon to bombard the carbon rod.In that case energy of electrons and the rate of bombardement can be controlled more accurately (IMHO)than a spark gap discharge(kind of complicated interaction with many radiowaves emitted in wide range).
I guess if we could get only the carbon surface to interact with electrons,then beta's would have more freedom to escape.In my imagination,the beta's created inside of the carbon rod has difficulties to escape out of it and are beeing re-absorbed by the rod.Only a fraction of beta's escape outside and is trapped in the coils.
So in short i would like a thin layer of carbon bombarded by electrons,to ease beta's escape ,leave the carbon cold and eliminate radio waves distortion of spark gap(maybe thats a part of your DC AC problem).

As second step i proposed to put carbon rod with collecting coils and cannon inside of a vacuum tube to eliminate beta interaction with airgap between coil and rod.

If the coil is wound up on a toroid it will not interact magnetically with Beta particles?(flux is mainly insiede of the toroid,no?)


aleks

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Re: Single circuits generate nuclear reactions
« Reply #305 on: May 20, 2008, 06:37:27 PM »
also, aleks: what are you referencing with the quote of my post?
Did I quote you? Recently I've quoted Earl and Feynman only.

aleks

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Re: Single circuits generate nuclear reactions
« Reply #306 on: May 20, 2008, 06:42:20 PM »
An LED changes an electron to a photon, so this electron 'leaves' the primary circuit as well.
No, this does not happen that way. Electrons do not leave circuitry, they only transfer energy to LED which is then converted into space EM wave.

Generally, free (conduction) electrons never leave conductor. But I think in the presence of bias field they may "relax" their bounds a bit, and so that can leave conductor a bit (but this is only an idea - I may be totally wrong about it, just trying to get pieces together in the light of my DC acoustic waves hypothesis). Free electrons are always present in conductors - otherwise it would be a dielectric material. Type of material (and ambient conditions like mag.field and temperature) controls number of free electrons present in a given volume of space within conductor.

Feynman

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Re: Single circuits generate nuclear reactions
« Reply #307 on: May 20, 2008, 06:48:27 PM »
yeah i was thinking out loud, hit reload and check the original post. 

aleks

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Re: Single circuits generate nuclear reactions
« Reply #308 on: May 20, 2008, 06:55:59 PM »
yeah i was thinking out loud, hit reload and check the original post. 
OK :) I also wanted to add that beta particles go from the carbon rod (it becomes positively charged), but electrostatic wave goes into the carbon rod (it then recovers neutral charge). Anyway electrostatic wave should not carry much energy - it's just a thing we should clearly see on the o-scope.

Quote from: Feynman
The thing I don't understand is if we are actually 'net' converting the input electrons to output beta rays, shouldn't we be accumulating a net positive charge somewhere?
Well, capacitors "has it", it accumulates +/- charge. In my understanding capacitor is a "double purpose" device: it can accumulate charge and it can produce internal space EM waves: it kind of "stops" electrons thus releasing their EM energy that then strikes electrons on the opposite side. (sorry if I'm wrong)

Koen1

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Re: Single circuits generate nuclear reactions
« Reply #309 on: May 20, 2008, 07:00:29 PM »
So yes, I agree there are two process's here, one is the flow within the primary circuit (aka power source pulsing into the rod), and the other with waves of beta rays leaving the rod and interacting with the surrounding environment.

The thing I don't understand is if we are actually 'net' converting the input electrons to output beta rays, shouldn't we be accumulating a net positive charge somewhere?


Didn't I mention that in my post on beta collection?
I'm sure I did... But it was quite a large piece of text and I can be a bit vague
sometimes so perhaps it wasn't clear?
Yeah, I looked it up, and that is exactly the question I asked in that post.

So what I'm saying is: a "normal" beta emitter loses beta particles and gains a positive charge, while the collector gains beta particles
and negative charge, and the exchange of the charges between the emitter and the collector through a connected wire causes our output current.
What we have here is a stimulated beta emitter. It only emits beta after receiving a jolt from our "activator circuit". So we have this "activator circuit"
pumping jolts of high voltage through the emitter. Then we should still have a similar process as above, so there should be an emission of
beta particles that charges the emitter positively, and the collector catches the beta and becomes negatively charged.
I repeat: if our stimulated emission is similar to natural beta emission, then we should get a positive charge on the emitter right after the
beta burst.
Right?

Feynman

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Re: Single circuits generate nuclear reactions
« Reply #310 on: May 20, 2008, 07:00:50 PM »
@aleks, Koen
Well to recover a neutral charge, the carbon rod must recapture an equivilent number of electrons, no?   Or else it will have net (+)...  are you saying it recaptures charge from beta rays which "loop" through the air and come back to hit the rod?   If so, that still leaves a net (+) charge on the rod, because we know some of these beta rays manage to escape.   (Of course, our discussion is predicated on the input electrons are being 'net' converted directly to the beta rays, which I personally believe to be the case, but is not yet proven. We do not yet know if there is broken symmetry here with respect to net charge. ).

So if you are saying the carbon-rod 'charge recovery' is not from beta rays, by what process is the carbon rod recapturing a net neutral charge?  From the surrounding air from which is becoming ionized?

PS  Let me mention EXPERIMENTALLY we do see a small potential (<20V) from the carbon rod to the output toroid and surfaces, but this is nowhere near the voltage induced in the collector toroid (~200-500V).   Also with such high voltages these potentials show up damn near everywhere so its hard to say whether its an artifact or not.

« Last Edit: May 20, 2008, 07:22:31 PM by Feynman »

Feynman

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Re: Single circuits generate nuclear reactions
« Reply #311 on: May 20, 2008, 07:01:34 PM »
@Koen
You did indeed ask it first my friend.   I just took longer than you did to understand what's going on.   :)

Quote
I repeat: if our stimulated emission is similar to natural beta emission, then we should get a positive charge on the emitter right after the
beta burst.
Right?
Yes I think this is the case!   To the scopes!!!!  ;) :D ;D

aleks

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Re: Single circuits generate nuclear reactions
« Reply #312 on: May 20, 2008, 07:08:38 PM »
PS  Let me mention EXPERIMENTALLY we do see a small potential (<20V) from the carbon rod to the output toroid and surfaces, but this is nowhere near the voltage induced in the collector toroid (~200-500V).
If you connect to ground, you'll have unlimited number of free electrons, so for safety reasons carbon rod should be grounded.

Even if not grounded, carbon rod charge recovery should not bother you: electrostatic laws will do it for you. This is exactly where minor air ionization may happen: carbon rod will be "sucking" free electrons from the air. Since betas won't go too far from the device, this will create a closed loop in the air, with a bit of constant local air ionization.

Feynman

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Re: Single circuits generate nuclear reactions
« Reply #313 on: May 20, 2008, 07:13:19 PM »
@aleks

In the early beta patents (<1940s)  Koen and I were looking at, the surrounding collector is (optionally) grounded, not the beta emitter in the center.  Personally, this does not make sense to me, but it is in the patent.  Perhaps they are assuming the (+) charge on the beta emitter in the center can only increase, while the electrons on the collector surface can be 'used up' while powering a load, ultimately requiring an earth ground on the collector for zero potential reference.  This is a bit different from the VSG circuit, which is dynamic in terms of ultimate charge distributions.

 We can try grounding the connecting the anode of the carbon rod (which would prevent these potentials from building up), but I'm afraid that won't solve our problem of capturing more current . . . if it does not affect output COP, the earth ground to carbon anode makes sense.

I think a good experiment would be to watch the carbon rod on the scope using pulse discharge with like 3% duty cycle and see if we can see that (+) charge we are expecting, and whether it neutralizes completely or builds to some equilbrium. I agree charge neutralization may be coming from a closed loop in the local ionized air surrounding the device.

aleks

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Re: Single circuits generate nuclear reactions
« Reply #314 on: May 20, 2008, 07:20:35 PM »
We can try grounding the connecting the anode of the carbon rod (which would prevent these potentials from building up), but I'm afraid that won't solve our problem of capturing more current . . .
Have you read my proposal of all-separate multi-layer multi-segment collector with capacitors on all terminals? Such arrangement should produce displacement current energy. Just note that all terminals have "-" on them, so they should be again connected to ground or an auxiliary "zero" connection (if you have it).