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Author Topic: New comer needs any and all help  (Read 91090 times)

TinselKoala

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Re: New comer needs any and all help
« Reply #165 on: November 19, 2012, 04:35:31 PM »
Slow down.

Let's go one step at a time. Look again at my video showing the voltage measurement on the capacitor, for the JT we built "together", using the 2n2222a. Since the only difference between your setup and mine is a few turns on the secondary.... right? Then you should be able to get similar voltages.... 70 volts or so--- on the capacitor. In fact yours should be higher than mine, probably, depending on the inductance of your toroid and your turns numbers.  I don't want to go any further until you can get a good voltage measurement, following my instructions, on your capacitor.

Disconnect _only_ the cathode of the LED from the transistor Emitter of your working 2n2222a JT. So now it's sticking up in the air, and the only thing connected to the emitter of the transistor is the wire going to the negative battery terminal. Right?
Make sure your voltmeter is set to DC, and at least 100 V range. Clip your 22 microFarad, 200 volt capacitor right to your voltmeter leads, negative to negative, positive to positive. Now run a wire from the voltmeter-capacitor positive side, over to the Collector of the transistor which is still connected to one end of one of the coils. (the anode of the LED is also still connected here, but isn't used.) Now run a wire from the voltmeter-capacitor negative side, to your rectifier diode's Anode (non banded end) , and use one that can withstand spikes, like 1n4002 or even 1n4007. Then touch the other end (cathode, banded end) of the diode to the Emitter of the transistor where the LED used to be hooked up, and where the negative battery pole is still hooked up. You are not using the LED, but you should still be able to hear the JT oscillating

If you do not see the cap voltage rise well over 3 volts right away, and climb to several tens of volts in a few seconds, you are doing something wrong or your diode or your capacitor is bad. Try reversing the rectifier diode, but it should work the way I've laid it out. I just tried it this way on my version of the JT we built together and it works as I said.

You can use an electrolytic cap of a different value; smaller will charge faster and bigger will charge slower, and if it's too big (too many microFarads) it won't work. Just make sure the cap you select has a high enough voltage rating (don't use a "25 volt" cap for example). Stick to the 10 to 30 microFarad size range.

Before we go further, I'd really like to see you get this part right, and you'll do better too, by slowing down and proceeding methodically. Any time you are stuck, go back to the basic circuit that you KNOW works... just to see if a component has failed or something.

(Right now you're kind of like someone learning to drive a manual transmission car. You want to go drive around downtown, but you are still stalling out at stopsigns. All you need is a little more practice on the basics.... and to _slow down_.)

TinselKoala

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Re: New comer needs any and all help
« Reply #166 on: November 19, 2012, 04:53:36 PM »
Right now you are eager and impatient, and you just want to build something that does what you want, which is an advanced sort of JT. The circuits exist to do just exactly what you want! They are being discussed in the "Jule Thief" thread and some of the builders there are way waaaaay past where I am at.

But you've got to be able to get a simple circuit running reliably, and understand a bit of the basic electronic concepts, before you'll be able to build one of their circuits and have success with it. You are learning the pitfalls of working with components, and probably learning more than you wanted to or thought you needed to in the first place.

But this is a good thing, you are stretching your mind and growing, and pretty soon you _will_ have the circuit you want, lighting up several CFLs on small inputs and making bright light. Be patient, learn, observe carefully, don't be afraid to blow components, they are replaceable. Take small steps, starting from known locations, and be able to retreat when the going gets tough.

Often taking a walk with my dog helps me to clear up my muddled mind and I'm able to find a solution to a vexing problem by getting away from it for a while. Other times it just takes trial after frustrating trial before I get something to work right, or understand why I can't.

jhsmith87

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Re: New comer needs any and all help
« Reply #167 on: November 19, 2012, 09:58:17 PM »
Okay it's working I think my meter is reading 20 volts I had hoped up just like you said positive side going to collector and the negative side going to the emmiter. At times it will go blow 1 volt but mostly stays around 19.7v. This is what should be happening right? If so what is my next step?

TinselKoala

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Re: New comer needs any and all help
« Reply #168 on: November 20, 2012, 01:19:43 AM »
I should think you would be getting more voltage than that. You are using 2n2222a, right? And a 220R base resistor? And feeding with a single AAA or AA battery? Remember, I'm getting 70 volts in around 30 or 40 seconds, into the 22 uF cap, and my  circuit is supposed to be identical to yours except for the difference in turns on your high-turn-count coil. And I think the fact that you have more turns should mean you can get a little higher voltage than me, but I'm not completely sure about this last part.

Also, the voltage should just climb steadily, getting slower and slower to climb, until it pretty much levels out and won't get higher. It should not drop down unless you are wiggling wires or something. If it's not steady, look for loose connections.

The next step will be to try more input voltage along with varying the base resistor. If you just increase the input voltage you can saturate the transistor and it will stop oscillating, so you may have to increase the base resistor at the same time. Go up to 2 AAA or AA cells in series, for around 3V input. If you use the same 220R you will see that the LED is quite a bit brighter, I think, but it may even look dimmer, if it's overloaded or the transistor is saturated. In that case go to a larger base resistor, next common value is 470R. But you can string resistors in series to get whatever you want, 320 or whatever.  Use the cap to test the output voltage in the same way as before, without the LED. String several LEDs together in series, see how many you can get to light, without the cap. Try using the cap in series with a CFL: one side of JT output > cap > CFL > other side of JT output. Swap the connections around. Also try the LEDs in parallel.

ETA: I just tried 5 LEDs in series: no problemo, they light well on one battery and quite brightly on two, still using the 220R base resistor.

When you've gotten stable voltage readings using the cap, and are happy that you are getting the full output your unit is capable of, then try the stuff above. After that, the next step will be to go to a 2n3055.

There's a book you might like to look at, if you can find it. Usually at Radio Shack, I think. It's called Getting Started in Electronics, by Forrest Mims III, and it's full of information that you need, as well as a lot of fun circuits, cheap and easy to play with and even useful for stuff. Everything is drawn out very clearly using sketches of components as well as traditional schematics. I've just about worn my copy out! Had to put it in a binder.

truesearch

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Re: New comer needs any and all help
« Reply #169 on: November 20, 2012, 03:32:28 PM »
I second the suggestion for any of Forrest Mims' books. The one on "Getting Started in Electronics" is a great choice.


You can preview it at Amazon: [size=78%]http://www.amazon.com/Getting-Started-Electronics-Forrest-Mims/dp/0945053282[/size]


truesearch

jhsmith87

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Re: New comer needs any and all help
« Reply #170 on: November 20, 2012, 05:06:25 PM »
i dont know why it is dropping in voltage like that then, my only conclusion is that it is from the same reason i have been having problems with this whole time, some wires not making good contact. and i can no solder so it is really starting to bother me.
but as far as the transistor no i have been using a 2n3055 the other ones kept braking the "legs" off when i would try to twist wires to them. and as i said before my base resistor is a 1k variable i decided to go with that one so i could just turn the knob and see what happened. other than that though yea my turns are the same, and i am using a AA battery. and i am using a 200v 22uf cap. i think the problem is my wiring. i can not solder and in the end after i finish any project that is always the problem or the down fall of the project.
i have tried for a long long time, at least two years constantly working on trying to learn how, even paid a jewelry maker to try to teach me how. no luck, since my back injury my hands are just no steady enough. and no matter how hard i try i just cant do it.. hell its hard enough just to work with these small parts.

truesearch

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Re: New comer needs any and all help
« Reply #171 on: November 20, 2012, 05:15:15 PM »
@jhsmith87:


Sorry to hear about your difficulties with soldering. I can imagine the frustration and also the resulting inconsistent test results.


Have you tried using one of there devices? They will allow you to secure components and wires in-place. However, you will still need to run your soldering iron "by hand" to melt the parts together. . .
Link: [size=78%]http://www.jameco.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/Product_10001_10001_72865_-1[/size]


truesearch

jhsmith87

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Re: New comer needs any and all help
« Reply #172 on: November 20, 2012, 05:19:38 PM »
yea i have one of those.. still no good.

TinselKoala

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Re: New comer needs any and all help
« Reply #173 on: November 20, 2012, 11:40:41 PM »
Ah... I'm sorry to hear that, I was about to suggest the same thing. Harbor Freight has them for around 3 dollars, and I have two or three of them.

Yes, I agree that the problems are likely due to poor contact in the wiring. The lower your voltage, the more these little things work against you. Voltage is the ability to push current thru a resistance, so if your resistance is high and your voltage is low.... well, you don't get much action. And the operation of the JT circuit depends on oscillations, and if your contacts are "scratchy" all kinds of screwy things can happen to oscillators.

Soldering is definitely a skill that needs to be practiced, it needs a fairly steady hand and good vision. I usually use magnifiers when soldering, I use the "third hands" whenever convenient.... but being able to steady the hands is a real problem. You might be able to set up some kind of wrist rest that you can use together with the "third hands" and get steadier that way.

But in any case if you are careful with the  breadboards and don't force too large wires in there--- or the leads of a 2n3055!--- they should work OK with good enough contact.

A 1K base resistor, as I found out, isn't enough to get into the adjustment range we need; I just made a video showing some variations on this circuit we've been playing with, lighting up a bunch of LEDs and varying base resistance with a 10K trimpot.... for higher input voltages than 2 volts, a 50 k pot will be my next test.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8X0oY_1UP3A
 

truesearch

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Re: New comer needs any and all help
« Reply #174 on: November 20, 2012, 11:47:52 PM »
I though too that "breadboarding" is about the only other option if soldering is out.


And like TinselKoala pointed out it is paramount that good (ie low resistant) connections are made. You'll find that true with connecting test equipment such as oscilloscopes too. Otherwise the observed results can be very random.


truesearch

jhsmith87

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Re: New comer needs any and all help
« Reply #175 on: November 21, 2012, 09:32:26 AM »
Yea I've practiced a whole lot just can't get it. What about this thing I saw it looked like a gun for soldering and from what I read it seemed instant. Like u put it to the wires pull the trigger and bam soldered. Is that true? Cause all I have now is a soldering iron. And it just takes longer to melt the solder than I can keep my hands from moving.

TinselKoala

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Re: New comer needs any and all help
« Reply #176 on: November 21, 2012, 10:50:03 AM »
For the kind of work we are doing (and for any work) you need the right tools. A soldering gun is almost useless these days with the fine circuitry and tiny wires and all. I haven't had mine out of the drawer literally in years. The high heat they produce melts solder fast all right... and destroys delicate components. That's why all my projects didn't work when I was first starting out! I was frying everything with too much heat.
I'll say it again: an adjustable temperature-controlled iron is the best for our work. Like the inexpensive Weller WLC100 or similar. And you will use a very fine gauge of solder that melts fast. The Weller, when turned up to 5, will work very fast, I keep mine just over 3 for general work and usually only use 5 for unsoldering big stuff or heavy pieces of metal.
Also the heavy weight of the gun might actually be harder for you to handle than a pencil-type iron.
I would suggest borrowing a soldering gun if you have a friend that has one, and try it out; they usually are dual-heat and if you stay on the low heat setting you'll probably be OK; I'm worried about the weight and the size of the tip but if you can handle it that would be great, better than nothing, but not better than an adjustable pencil iron
With the proper iron and solder, and a wrist rest or brace, and an hour's practice..... I'll bet you'll be able to solder just fine.

Do you  know the wattage of the iron you have? For our work 25 or 30 watts is plenty, maybe even too much at times.

For best results you need a fine gauge of solder, rosin core type for electronic work, definitely NOT acid core or fluxless, and you  need a clean tip on the iron and it must be "tinned", that is, coated with the molten solder, but with no excess. The solder stations like the Weller have a little sponge holder, you wet the sponge, and then before every joint you wipe the  hot tip in the moist sponge to clean and refresh it. Then, a tiny bit of molten solder on the tip will help transfer heat to your part. So it's like this:

0) before starting clean the cold tip with scotchbrite or sandpaper if necessary to get to a good surface. Heat up the tip and "tin" the tip fully all around with the solder you are going to use. Wipe off excess on the damp sponge.
1) make a good mechanical connection with your wires and parts
2) clean off the hot tip on the sponge
3) apply a _tiny_ bit of fresh solder to the tip to aid heat transfer... if you see a blob it's too much, go back to the sponge
4) press the tip to the joint to heat it up, count to four ( three or four seconds,  longer if necessary but watch for overheating components)
5) flow fresh solder onto the hot joint, not the soldering iron tip, apply just enough solder to the joint to coat the parts in contact fully, but not a big blob, withdraw solder 
6) leave the tip in contact for a second to make sure the solder has flowed and coated everything in the joint
7) withdraw tip
 8) do not move the joint until the solder is hardened; if you do, reheat to melt completely again

I like to take some of the solder off the roll and wrap a few inches of it around a pencil or dowel and use that to apply the solder; this makes it easy to feed to the joint, better than trying to handle the larger roll.

Set yourself up some wires and practice soldering for a while. Practice makes perfect; this is a skill so don't expect to be able to do it perfectly right away... but please, don't give up, there must be a way to get past your tremor and steady your hands enough. Maybe a cushion for your wrist, or a sling, even. If there's a way at all we should try to find it. How's your handwriting? Holding the iron is a lot like holding a big pen or pencil.