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Solid States Devices => solid state devices => Topic started by: verpies on November 09, 2012, 09:37:25 PM

Title: Mr.Clean's Device
Post by: verpies on November 09, 2012, 09:37:25 PM
Below please find a link to a video of Mr.Clean's Device who claims that it is self-running.
http://youtu.be/mzE-p0GJb_Q (http://youtu.be/mzE-p0GJb_Q)

The preliminary schematic diagram is attached below.
Title: Re: Mr.Clean's Device
Post by: TinselKoala on November 09, 2012, 10:41:50 PM
That's the circuit diagram?

And then he disconnects the two +12 volt battery terminals, right?

And the square wave input is still coming in... right? Or is it disconnected too?
Does this come from a function generator, or what? 

Whatever it's coming from it will be putting some power into the system through the base-emitter circuits of the transistors, I think.

Where is the output light emitter, and where are the instruments hooked up?

People often only show one lead coming from the FG or signal source for some reason, as if it wasn't important where the other one is hooked up.
If the input is coming from, say, a Function Generator's typical output clipleads, then the "black" lead or "-" or "ground" is connected to the circuit's ground. From the Pin 3 of a 555 timer... ditto, the timer's ground must be common with the circuit's ground. This forms a current path. If the ground reference leads of some other, line-connected instrument like an unisolated oscilloscope is connected elsewhere in the circuit... now you have a ground-loop that might also carry power into the circuit from the FG or even from the mains.

Anyhow, thanks for the diagram so far.... A 2n2222a might work for the first stage, I hope.... since I've got a box full of them.
Title: Re: Mr.Clean's Device
Post by: poynt99 on November 10, 2012, 03:58:01 AM
Base-Emitter junction of Q1-->Base-Collector junction of Q2 (is not reverse-biased like it normally would be with a positive voltage at the collector).

So the FG output is easily driving the coils to some degree.
Title: Re: Mr.Clean's Device
Post by: synchro1 on November 10, 2012, 04:33:35 AM
It looks like Mr. Clean has disconnected merely the positive pole of the battery alone, from the video, and that the negative battery pole remains attached to the circuit. Does the schematic ground indicate an Earth ground as well? Is it plausible that ground currents may account for the effect? Irregardless, this has to be the most exciting video of all time.
Title: Re: Mr.Clean's Device
Post by: verpies on November 10, 2012, 05:29:15 AM
That's the circuit diagram?
I blindly drew this schematic diagram from the links that Mr. Clean provided.  See here (http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/4864-donald-smith-devices-too-good-true-259.html#post213963).
I did not analyze it yet.

And then he disconnects the two +12 volt battery terminals, right?
It looks like he is disconnecting only the positive terminal of the battery, leaving the negative terminal connected.

And the square wave input is still coming in... right? Or is it disconnected too?
Does this come from a function generator, or what? 
From what I understand the ≈1kHz waveform comes from that 555 astable multivibrator and the LM393 comparator that is powered by the device itself.  See the updated diagram in my 1st post (http://www.overunity.com/13090/mr-cleans-device/msg343616/#msg343616).

P.S.
The toroidal cores are from Digikey#, part number: 495-3845-ND.
As far as I understand, those cores have been scored with a Dremel tool and broken in half with a hammer.
Title: Re: Mr.Clean's Device
Post by: Farmhand on November 10, 2012, 05:33:02 AM
I think it is a result of input power from somewhere. It's only exciting to those who have not seen similar things
or to those who believe in energy from nowhere.

In this video I show a similar thing, but I tracked the cause down to an inverter running from a separate battery in the bank.
the inverter battery (commercial inverter) was grounded and when I moved it away from the battery my circuit was attached to the effect faded with distance.

At about 4:30 in the video I disconnect the input power to the circuit and the noise continues, enough to light an LED. I think it had something to do with the old scope as well.
I have a new one now. Anyway it wasn't free energy or zipon's. The voltage was about 13.5 volts. When I shot the video I was still investigating it. I lit the LED with it later then
discovered the battery thing after that. It was strange but that is why the clever guys like Tinsel Koala and the likes are here to help work through these things. I had to work it
out for myself. But my first impression was confusion not excitement. Just because we can take a lead of the battery or capacitor does not mean there is no input.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i-rsdt28Ajk

And here is another clip showing the AC noise from ground to a circuit. Of course at the time I knew a lot less than I do now, mainly because no guru's foul my head now.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fktgj8pUlds

I childishly classified the scope shot as an animal capture, because it looked like a tick or some kind of parasitic insect.  :D


Cheers

P.S. This is how things get out of hand, someone notices something strange and gets excited then a whole heap of other people who don't understand get excited and reinforce the original persons excitement. Then it is difficult to take the truth because of all the expectations hope and belief. Many experimenters need to learn to determine power before making claims, until then they should present their findings without the problem of everyone hyping them up. Then it can be investigated in an unbiased way.
If it is proved to be extra output energy then that is very cool, but I doubt it. For it to come out it must go in.


..
Title: Re: Mr.Clean's Device
Post by: verpies on November 10, 2012, 05:39:14 AM
Just because we can take a lead of the battery or capacitor does not mean there is no input.
Yes, that is why I drew that schematic diagram.

If Mr. Clean responds and corrects this schematic then we will be able to properly evaluate the power isolation of this circuit after the disconnection of that positive battery terminal.
Title: Re: Mr.Clean's Device
Post by: verpies on November 10, 2012, 05:46:21 AM
Does the schematic ground indicate an Earth ground as well?
Not at all.

Sign up to this forum thread (http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/4864-donald-smith-devices-too-good-true-260.html#post213994) and motivate Mr. Clean to correct/supplement the schematic diagram and add the Earth ground to it (if there is any).

If Mr. Clean writes where the Earth ground is connected, then I can draw it.
Title: Re: Mr.Clean's Device
Post by: TinselKoala on November 10, 2012, 06:53:05 AM
Thanks, verpies... that accounts for the similarity of the schematic with the ignition coil driver in the linked page! Identical except for the 100R in series with the oscillator feed.

That oscillator circuit is handy too. Ah, I don't have the comparator chip on hand but I'll bet about any op amp would do the job at 1 kHz.

I hope MrClean will also show where all the instruments are connected, both "probe" and ground references. I've had a similar experience myself like Farmhand describes. Disconnect a battery lead and the (whatever) keeps running...... and then find that it's being powered thru the scope ground shields looping back thru the mains ground pin to another instrument's chassis ground and then back to the circuit somehow.....

Ah, the suspense is killing me.
 ;)
Title: Re: Mr.Clean's Device
Post by: TinselKoala on November 10, 2012, 07:00:40 AM
I blindly drew this schematic diagram from the links that Mr. Clean provided.  See here (http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/4864-donald-smith-devices-too-good-true-259.html#post213963).
I did not analyze it yet.
It looks like he is disconnecting only the positive terminal of the battery, leaving the negative terminal connected.
From what I understand the ≈1kHz waveform comes from that 555 astable multivibrator and the LM393 comparator that is powered by the device itself.  See the updated diagram in my 1st post (http://www.overunity.com/13090/mr-cleans-device/msg343616/#msg343616).

P.S.
The toroidal cores are from Digikey#, part number: 495-3845-ND.
As far as I understand, those cores have been scored with a Dremel tool and broken in half with a hammer.

OK, thanks,  I see the two circuits together, but I don't see how power is supposed to get to the oscillator section (or the power section either) if they are disconnected from the +12 and +9v sources . I mean... if the toroid is powering the thing, how is it that power from the toroids is somehow making it all the way back thru the power section to make the oscillator work if it is disconnected from the +9 V? It would seem that for the oscillator to work, _something_ would have to be happening at its power input points: it must be getting power into these points from somewhere. But if the circuitry isn't there....then how?
I can believe in miracles, but please.... just one at a time.
Title: Re: Mr.Clean's Device
Post by: e2matrix on November 10, 2012, 08:34:57 AM
Just as a note for those that haven't seen the video yet it appeared he was using a pocket type digital o-scope.  For now I would assume that's isolated either running on battery or through a wall wort so very likely not a source of power or voltage difference between that any other devices like the sig gen - which I'm fairly certain he said was a DIY unit as seen in the left part of verpies schematic.  I'm going to take another look at the vid to see if I can pin down answers to any of those ???'s.  But as much stuff as Mr. clean builds I would think he would be aware of the more obvious things.  I'm hoping he didn't miss anything obvious anyway as it would be great to finally see some clear replicatable proof of something that just about anyone can build and show a self running circuit.   I wanna' see TK's head explode trying to explain it all away ....   LOL
Title: Re: Mr.Clean's Device
Post by: verpies on November 10, 2012, 01:33:30 PM
I don't see how power is supposed to get to the oscillator section (or the power section either) if they are disconnected from the +12 and +9v sources . I mean... if the toroid is powering the thing, how is it that power from the toroids is somehow making it all the way back thru the power section to make the oscillator work if it is disconnected from the +9 V?
I do not know how the device is looped.
I do not have answers to rest of these questions. but Mr.Clean does.

I just copied the schematics available at these links he provided. 
A separate +9V power rail probably does not even exist in Mr.Clean's device.
I just drew +V9 and +12V because that's what was shown at the links that Mr.Clean provided.

Once the author verifies or corrects this schematic, your questions and objections will make a lot of sense.
Title: Re: Mr.Clean's Device
Post by: verpies on November 10, 2012, 01:52:51 PM
Thanks, verpies... that accounts for the similarity of the schematic with the ignition coil driver in the linked page! Identical except for the 100R in series with the oscillator feed.
Yes, it is not a coincidence.
The 100Ω resistor in series with the oscillator feed is present in the lower diagram (http://www.rmcybernetics.com/projects/DIY_Devices/homemade_ignition_coil_driver.htm)  (the one with the 4 transistors 2N3055), so I monkey'd it from there because without a resistor at the base of the BFY51 transistor, it would blow up.

That oscillator circuit is handy too. Ah, I don't have the comparator chip on hand but I'll bet about any op amp would do the job at 1 kHz.
It would.

I hope MrClean will also show where all the instruments are connected, both "probe" and ground references.
Of Course.
Once the component values and wiring are verified - I will add the measurement devices as well.

I've had a similar experience myself like Farmhand describes. Disconnect a battery lead and the (whatever) keeps running...... and then find that it's being powered thru the scope ground shields looping back thru the mains ground pin to another instrument's chassis ground and then back to the circuit somehow.....
That's all possible, except for the power from the oscilloscope which seems to be a battery operated, pocket-sized unit.
Title: Re: Mr.Clean's Device
Post by: poynt99 on November 10, 2012, 02:42:27 PM
The bottom line is; is his function generator powered from an external source?

If it is, then the circuit is receiving power from the function generator (assuming it is connected), via the b-e junction of Q1, and the b-c junction of Q2.
Title: Re: Mr.Clean's Device
Post by: crazycut06 on November 10, 2012, 03:26:18 PM
I've watched the video again and saw the yellow clip connected from the 5watt resistor going to the cap bank and the green clip connected to the common ground! Thats why he still got power for the trafo, he thought he disconnected the cap bank via the black wire to the common ground but misses the green clip still connected to the neg of the battery i think, im not discouraging any body, but telling what i think...see for your self if im mistaken...correct me if im wrong...  ;D
Title: Re: Mr.Clean's Device
Post by: TinselKoala on November 10, 2012, 05:26:44 PM
I've watched the video again and saw the yellow clip connected from the 5watt resistor going to the cap bank and the green clip connected to the common ground! Thats why he still got power for the trafo, he thought he disconnected the cap bank via the black wire to the common ground but misses the green clip still connected to the neg of the battery i think, im not discouraging any body, but telling what i think...see for your self if im mistaken...correct me if im wrong...  ;D

Can you give some specific time markers for your observations? My eyes aren't as sharp as they once were, and I've always been confused by alligator clipleads.... (I was bitten by one when I was a child and now they frighten me).
Title: Re: Mr.Clean's Device
Post by: Farmhand on November 10, 2012, 06:10:30 PM
At about 3:33 he say's "this thing is really weird" then shows the capacitors and the battery, the yellow red black and green leads can be seen connected to the cap board.
Black and green on negative, yellow and red on positive. I've already posed the question of those wire's, but I got an unclear response.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzE-p0GJb_Q&feature=youtu.be

..
Title: Re: Mr.Clean's Device
Post by: e2matrix on November 10, 2012, 06:45:39 PM
At about 3:33 he say's "this thing is really weird" then shows the capacitors and the battery, the yellow red black and green leads can be seen connected to the cap board.
Black and green on negative, yellow and red on positive. I've already posed the question of those wire's, but I got an unclear response.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzE-p0GJb_Q&feature=youtu.be (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzE-p0GJb_Q&feature=youtu.be)

..
I've got a large monitor, ran that vid at highest resolution and froze at 3:33, 3:37, 3:38 and ran it many times over.  I certainly could not say that the leads are connected as you state.  They could just be laying close to where they had been clipped.  Lots of possibilities.   To assume that you are correct is to assume mr. clean is either doing a sloppy job of trying to fool everyone or he's to dumb to realize he still has them hooked up.  Neither one of those scenario's fits well with what I know of him. 
Title: Re: Mr.Clean's Device
Post by: poynt99 on November 10, 2012, 06:59:27 PM
He appears to have 5 electrolytics in series across a RS breadboard. At each end, the caps terminate to the breadboard "rail". It looks to me as though all 4 alligator clips are still clipped to a wire inserted into the "rail" buss.
Title: Re: Mr.Clean's Device
Post by: TinselKoala on November 10, 2012, 07:23:08 PM
I've got a large monitor, ran that vid at highest resolution and froze at 3:33, 3:37, 3:38 and ran it many times over.  I certainly could not say that the leads are connected as you state.  They could just be laying close to where they had been clipped.  Lots of possibilities.   To assume that you are correct is to assume mr. clean is either doing a sloppy job of trying to fool everyone or he's to dumb to realize he still has them hooked up.  Neither one of those scenario's fits well with what I know of him.

Those are not the only possibilities.

"Many's the slip between the cup and the lip". With that kind of disarray on the workbench it is very easy to make errors or wiring "glitches" without realizing it. (My bench is also like this, respect, but all my clipleads are the same color so I don't get confused.) I'm sure he'll find out if and where there is an error, and I'm hopeful that he'll post a diagram that shows the exact circuit as it is, including any "error" if one is found. I really don't think he's trying to fool anyone and I wouldn't call him "too dumb to realize" anything, because it seems to me from looking at earlier videos that he is honestly experimenting and trying to fill in the gaps in his understanding.

The people who are too dumb to realize anything are the ones who know it all already anyway.
Title: Re: Mr.Clean's Device
Post by: TinselKoala on November 10, 2012, 07:27:56 PM
He appears to have 5 electrolytics in series across a RS breadboard. At each end, the caps terminate to the breadboard "rail". It looks to me as though all 4 alligator clips are still clipped to a wire inserted into the "rail" buss.
Yah, so he does, which would account possibly for the observed decay in the voltage while running disconnected.... but what about the rise in voltage that is seen a couple of times? Once it's a fast rise, when he temporarily hooks the batt back up, but a couple of times there's a clear rise in the voltmeter reading that's slower, like a cap charging through a resistance, and he doesn't indicate in the narration that he's doing anything. Is he tuning the osc freq during the demo or is that fixed at 1 kHz?

And also... did I hear him say, or read, that the voltmeter is on AC? Where is he measuring?
Title: Re: Mr.Clean's Device
Post by: Farmhand on November 11, 2012, 12:39:27 AM
I've got a large monitor, ran that vid at highest resolution and froze at 3:33, 3:37, 3:38 and ran it many times over.  I certainly could not say that the leads are connected as you state.  They could just be laying close to where they had been clipped.  Lots of possibilities.   To assume that you are correct is to assume mr. clean is either doing a sloppy job of trying to fool everyone or he's to dumb to realize he still has them hooked up.  Neither one of those scenario's fits well with what I know of him.

mrclean has demonstrated on several occasions that he does not understand how to determine energy or even power.  The wire's are connected to the capacitor board that is
all I said. Clearly that is the case. If you can't see that with a "large monitor" then I can't help that. I didn't assume anything I asked a question about what I saw.

Foe eg, just before the clip in question he uploaded a clip where he suggested that because he seen 30 odd volt spikes on the scope he could just multiply 30v by the output
current and get the output power. 

Never did I suggest he is deliberately trying fool anyone. I think he has just made another mistake which is fine. We all make mistakes. If the capacitors cannot be removed as he says they are needed, then they are still needed in the circuit and probably running it with the energy from them. Where the wire's go wires from the capacitors will be all telling.

Do not try to attribute to me more than I have said.  So what is it you say I said that requires me to be correct ? I asked about the wires. Are you saying there is not the four wires connected to the capacitor board or that you cannot see them ? I may be wrong about how they are connected I admit, but the important thing is to find out how they are connected and where they go to. I should have said it "looks" like that is how they are connected. But they are indeed connected to the board.

Cheers

Title: Re: Mr.Clean's Device
Post by: crazycut06 on November 11, 2012, 02:56:24 AM
Can you give some specific time markers for your observations? My eyes aren't as sharp as they once were, and I've always been confused by alligator clipleads.... (I was bitten by one when I was a child and now they frighten me).


At 1.25 to 1.37 you can clearly see that the green clip is connected with the black clip from the battery going to the cap bank, the wires are hidden via the ignition coil besides the batt. under the plier then behind the metal cup that the cap bank is lying.


Lets wait for mr.clean to clean it up, (i mean clear) lol  ;D  before concluding anything, maybe in his next video...
Title: Re: Mr.Clean's Device
Post by: mrclean on November 11, 2012, 08:00:20 AM
Those are not the only possibilities.

"Many's the slip between the cup and the lip". With that kind of disarray on the workbench it is very easy to make errors or wiring "glitches" without realizing it. (My bench is also like this, respect, but all my clipleads are the same color so I don't get confused.) I'm sure he'll find out if and where there is an error, and I'm hopeful that he'll post a diagram that shows the exact circuit as it is, including any "error" if one is found. I really don't think he's trying to fool anyone and I wouldn't call him "too dumb to realize" anything, because it seems to me from looking at earlier videos that he is honestly experimenting and trying to fill in the gaps in his understanding.

The people who are too dumb to realize anything are the ones who know it all already anyway.


oh man this made me laugh out loud :D no im not using any tricks, but im not having much luck replicating this myself, so i hope not to cause too much frustration, but here is how i have it wired...
http://img802.imageshack.us/img802/1874/imagedmb.jpg[/size]
Title: Re: Mr.Clean's Device
Post by: verpies on November 11, 2012, 06:22:10 PM
How is the 9V produced for the PWM oscillator power supply?
Is +9V produced from the +12V rail that appears across the battery?
Title: Re: Mr.Clean's Device
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 11, 2012, 06:24:35 PM
Here it is:
Title: Re: Mr.Clean's Device
Post by: kcarring on November 11, 2012, 09:46:24 PM
Heya Bill, Kurt & Tinsel!


So Kurt, what you are getting at is that the oscillator is clearly powered by the super cap, BUT it should, never show a climbing voltage? is that the whole thing here?


Thanks
Nice work.
Title: Re: Mr.Clean's Device
Post by: TinselKoala on November 11, 2012, 11:11:27 PM
The schematic is still not what I'd call a conventional representation; I still can't see the way the oscillator's 9V supply is interconnected, nor how the loop containing the 1 F cap is connected to the oscillator. The behaviour shown on the voltmeter while running looks like a cap being charged up slowly, and then discharging, and then "catching" and charging again. The one time when MrClean re-energizes the system by deliberately reconnecting the battery briefly, the voltage comes up fast; when the "recharge" events happen it's much slower. To me, this is the more anomalous bit of data. I can imagine the system running "itself" on a charged capacitor for a while, or even on the 9v supply of the oscillator, but I don't know how to account for these apparent recharge events, unless the oscillator freq or some other parameter was being varied at the time.
Title: Re: Mr.Clean's Device
Post by: mrclean on November 12, 2012, 04:47:13 AM
hi everyone, despite the interesting results, im concluding the results to be an anomaly, i cant guarantee that everyone will see these results, and im not able to reproduce it all the time
Title: Re: Mr.Clean's Device
Post by: Magluvin on November 12, 2012, 05:10:47 AM
hi everyone, despite the interesting results, im concluding the results to be an anomaly, i cant guarantee that everyone will see these results, and im not able to reproduce it all the time

Ok.

May I ask where you got that circuit? Or the transformer setup?  Or did you just come up with all of it and put it together? If so, what is the purpose of the extra cores if I may ask?
The transformer is really the only foreign item of the circuit.

Hope you get it going again. ;)


Mags
Title: Re: Mr.Clean's Device
Post by: nievesoliveras on November 12, 2012, 01:03:01 PM
I think the idea is a variation of the circuit found at PJKbook-Chapter-3.
It is like so:
Title: Re: Mr.Clean's Device
Post by: TinselKoala on November 12, 2012, 09:13:56 PM
If by "variation" you mean "completely different ".... then I agree with you.

 ;D
Title: Re: Mr.Clean's Device
Post by: verpies on November 13, 2012, 02:19:45 AM
Below is an updated schematic diagram of Mr. Clean's Device.

It is still not clear where the +9V supply rail comes from and where the red question marks (? ? ?) go to.
Title: Re: Mr.Clean's Device
Post by: TinselKoala on November 13, 2012, 02:28:22 AM
Thanks, verpies, that's very clear.
The "unconnected parallel wire"... is that half of a pair with the other, connected wire, like lampcord or coax or twisted pair, or is it a separate lead altogether? It would be nice to have the dimensions of this wire, how far apart it is from the other wire, how long, how is it laid out?
I don't really have a theory here, but certainly this is one odd part of the arrangement that should be documented completely.
Title: Re: Mr.Clean's Device
Post by: poynt99 on November 13, 2012, 02:59:27 AM
Thanks verpies, nice work.

The bottom (? ? ?) must go to the circuit ground. If the 9V supply is derived from the 12V supply (and I suspect it is), then the upper (? ? ?) would go to the 9V regulator input in the PWM block. Kurt does show both going to that block.

Hopefully Kurt will be a little more forthcoming with some answers, then we may know for certain if what I am saying is correct.
Title: Re: Mr.Clean's Device
Post by: Groundloop on November 13, 2012, 07:57:11 AM
Thanks verpies, nice work.

The bottom (? ? ?) must go to the circuit ground. If the 9V supply is derived from the 12V supply (and I suspect it is), then the upper (? ? ?) would go to the 9V regulator input in the PWM block. Kurt does show both going to that block.

Hopefully Kurt will be a little more forthcoming with some answers, then we may know for certain if what I am saying is correct.

.99,

He is running the oscillator from a 9 Volt battery.
The battery can be seen in this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gHnJYl6q96w&feature=relmfu
Attached is my understanding of his circuit.

[EDIT] I have updated my circuit drawing according to the hand drawing from Mr. Clean.

GL.
Title: Re: Mr.Clean's Device
Post by: verpies on November 13, 2012, 12:37:21 PM
The "unconnected parallel wire"... is that half of a pair with the other, connected wire, like lampcord or coax or twisted pair, or is it a separate lead altogether? It would be nice to have the dimensions of this wire, how far apart it is from the other wire, how long, how is it laid out?
I really don't know. 
All I have is that hand drawn drawing from Mr. Clean (http://www.overunity.com/13090/mr-cleans-device/dlattach/attach/117505/) that shows the wire from the negative terminal of C7 capacitor being parallel to the wire from a positive terminal of this capacitor.

The free wire appears to be tuning/detuning something.  It  resembles another successful OU Device that worked when it was tuned/detuned by a free hanging wire (or touched by hand).  See this video (http://youtu.be/gbeseiPPCeM?t=20m46s) of it.
Title: Re: Mr.Clean's Device
Post by: verpies on November 13, 2012, 12:42:23 PM
Attached is my understanding of his circuit.
Mr. Clean has not admitted to the separate 9V battery powering the PWM oscillator circuit however a 9V battery is visible on his 39E video (http://youtu.be/gHnJYl6q96w?t=0m37s) but this is not the video of the self-runner.

Also, the value of R5 was my interpretation and has not been confirmed by the author.
Also, the position of R7 on your schematic diagram is inconsistent with with this drawing (http://www.overunity.com/13090/mr-cleans-device/dlattach/attach/117505/) from the author.
Finally, the author has not confirmed whether the +12V supply rail (e.g. collector of Q1) is connected to the positive terminal of C7.
Title: Re: Mr.Clean's Device
Post by: Groundloop on November 13, 2012, 01:24:16 PM
The position of R7 is inconsistent with this drawing (http://www.overunity.com/13090/mr-cleans-device/dlattach/attach/117505/) from the author.

Verpies,

But it sure looks like the 1 Ohm resistor is at the end of the + lead in the video?
Or is the red clip the + wire?

GL.
Title: Re: Mr.Clean's Device
Post by: Groundloop on November 13, 2012, 02:32:48 PM

oh man this made me laugh out loud :D no im not using any tricks, but im not having much luck replicating this myself, so i hope not to cause too much frustration, but here is how i have it wired...
http://img802.imageshack.us/img802/1874/imagedmb.jpg[/size]

Mr. Clean,

Do you run your oscillator circuit from a 9 Volt battery?
What is the value on the resistor connected to the base of transistor BFY51?
Is your 3 Watt LED lamp a 12 Volt lamp?

GL.
Title: Re: Mr.Clean's Device
Post by: verpies on November 13, 2012, 02:32:58 PM
But it sure looks like the 1 Ohm resistor is at the end of the + lead in the video?
Or is the red clip the + wire?
Maybe.
If true, then Mr.Cleans hand drawn schematic is incorrect.
Title: Re: Mr.Clean's Device
Post by: Groundloop on November 13, 2012, 02:38:33 PM
Maybe.
If true, then Mr.Cleans hand drawn schematic is incorrect.

Verpies,

Thanks for taking time to answer me.

Well, I guess we have to wait until Mr. Clean clears this up by posting corrections or new information.

GL.
Title: Re: Mr.Clean's Device
Post by: synchro1 on November 13, 2012, 03:34:00 PM
I bet Mr. Clean's bi-toroid would work fine with the primary circuit wired like Lasersaber's Joule Ringer 3. A variable resistor on the transistor base would help adjust frequency to resonance. This simple circuit would be much easier to self loop too.
 
I think the real advance here is Mr. Clean's choice of the easy to come by fractured "Hi-perm." ferrite toroids for transformer core, and the over the 10x flux reluctance he's apparently achieved in his primary flux path configuration. The amount of surface area touching on the edges between the complete primary toroids is at least ten times less then the flat semi toroid surfaces touching sideways on the secondary paths. It more then likely would help to file two small flat spots on the outside primary toroid edges to increase the primary flux path if it exceeds the "At least" 10x reluctance factor. This small improvement may tend to help maximize the secondary outputs toward Thane's ideal tested ratio. This should help add to the performance reliability recently reported as spotty by Mr. Clean due to perhaps too small a secondaries output. Too great a flux path between the primary toroid edges would kill the secondary outputs altogether. A precise measurement of all the surface areas in contact can help determine exactly how much material to remove from the primary toroid edges to optimize the ratio. Thanks and bravo to Mr. Clean! 
Title: Re: Mr.Clean's Device
Post by: lasersaber on November 13, 2012, 04:23:32 PM
Quote
I bet Mr. Clean's bi-toroid would work fine with the primary circuit wired like Lasersaber's Joule Ringer 3.


We will know soon enough.
Title: Re: Mr.Clean's Device
Post by: TinselKoala on November 13, 2012, 11:01:58 PM

We will know soon enough.

Some of "us" already know.   ;)

I would also like to see a comparison made between the "bitoroid" shown, and a single toroid, wound with all three coils on it.

Btw lasersaber.... thanks! I have shamelessly used variants and modifications of your circuit (with credit of course) to make my best JTs.
Title: Re: Mr.Clean's Device
Post by: synchro1 on November 13, 2012, 11:17:02 PM
@Tinselkoala,
 
                 Here's a single toroid I designed that includes the bi-toroid 10x reluctance ratio between primary and secondary paths. Mr. Clean's choice of high permeability ferrite toroid should work well with the holes for $27. The metglass toroid is cost prohibitive. I plan to build this one now with Mr. Clean's part and Lasersaber's Joule Ringer 3 primary circuit. The ferrite toroid can be scored and fractured prior to drilling along the 9 and 3 o'clock latitude to facilitate ease of winding. This looks like a pretty neat package to me!
Title: Re: Mr.Clean's Device
Post by: kEhYo77 on November 13, 2012, 11:43:18 PM
Hi Synchro1


I think there should be alternate paths for the counter EMF from the secondaries in your design to follow BiTT topology.
But there aren't any.
Title: Re: Mr.Clean's Device
Post by: synchro1 on November 13, 2012, 11:51:58 PM
@KEHY077,
 
              I see your point. How would you envision an improvement? Do you think cutting a semi circular notch though the middle of the ferrite toroid between the secondaries may help?
Title: Re: Mr.Clean's Device
Post by: crazycut06 on November 14, 2012, 12:11:44 AM
Hi Synchro1


I think there should be alternate paths for the counter EMF from the secondaries in your design to follow BiTT topology.
But there aren't any.


I agree with kEhYo, but im thinkin about placing adjacent coil windings like the sergdo toroid to catch cemf? CW+CCW, I remembered woopy experimenting on this and gettin more power out without consuming more input...
Title: Re: Mr.Clean's Device
Post by: synchro1 on November 14, 2012, 12:43:38 AM
@KEHY077,
 
I think 1 & 1/2 ferrite rings clamped together with a semi circular seration running through the middle of double thick section, between and under the secondaries, might better conform to the topology and keep the reluctamce ratios intact as well.
 
@Crazycut06,
 
The Sergdo wraps pose a seperate problem and threaten to take the discussion off topic. Sounds like a possibility, but we may need a new thread to explore that area?
Title: Re: Mr.Clean's Device
Post by: Tito L. Oracion on November 14, 2012, 12:54:03 AM
MR.CLEANS DEVICE IS DIRTY  ;D  JOKE


I CANNOT SMELL IT  :(
Title: Re: Mr.Clean's Device
Post by: kEhYo77 on November 14, 2012, 01:49:10 AM
This is what I propose: a configuration based on four 'C' (or 'U') type cores and one 'I' matching type.
Those are not too hard to get nice and square ferrite cores, flat surface, great for configs like this!
Title: Re: Mr.Clean's Device
Post by: synchro1 on November 14, 2012, 02:04:11 AM
@KEHY077,
 
What's the permeability rating on those C cores? Mr. Clean's ferrite toroids are close to 4000. Anything less then that may fail to work. Some guy tried welding rods and failed for that reason.
Title: Re: Mr.Clean's Device
Post by: kEhYo77 on November 14, 2012, 02:45:21 AM
Their permeability is 2200 but I think that it might not matter as much as the right geometry and core volume. Worth a try...
Title: Re: Mr.Clean's Device
Post by: synchro1 on November 14, 2012, 03:05:38 AM
@KEHY077,
 
I would'nt build my hopes too high at that low a rating. I think you'd be better off sticking with the higher rated material. One and a half toroids might work better. Split and rejoined. The two secondaries on a complete pronate toroid, and the primary half arched overhead with holes drilled on either side of the primay wrap. Good luck anyway, and thanks for the help.
Title: Re: Mr.Clean's Device
Post by: e2matrix on November 14, 2012, 04:19:08 AM
Mr. Clean,

Do you run your oscillator circuit from a 9 Volt battery?
What is the value on the resistor connected to the base of transistor BFY51?
Is your 3 Watt LED lamp a 12 Volt lamp?

GL.

I can give you a little info on your last question.  I mentioned to mr. clean that the LED lamp he shows in video looks like the ones that are either 12 VDC or 120 VAC and that nearly everything I've seen in those type of packages will all have a step down circuit of some sort inside them.  His reply was a confirmation that it was one of those two types but he didn't mention which one.  I brought it up to him because they are not a direct diode type load and it may be important to know what type of actual load was being put in the circuit there.   So far the diagrams being drawn just show an LED (diode) but I'm sure it's going into some step down circuit before it goes to the LED.  Most LED driver circuits regulate both voltage and current and have an IC chip or three, inductor, caps and resistors so it's not just a simple diode across the output. 
Title: Re: Mr.Clean's Device
Post by: crazycut06 on November 14, 2012, 06:16:04 AM
@KEHY077,
 
What's the permeability rating on those C cores? Mr. Clean's ferrite toroids are close to 4000. Anything less then that may fail to work. Some guy tried welding rods and failed for that reason.

@syncrho1,
Remember that thane heins used laminates from ordinary trafos on his prototype, but using High permeability cores would be best.
Title: Re: Mr.Clean's Device
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 14, 2012, 07:02:46 AM
I will have to back and check but I believe the perm. on the 3.5" toroids we used on the Jeanna's circuit was around 10,000.  I still have some around.

Bill
Title: Re: Mr.Clean's Device
Post by: stprue on November 14, 2012, 01:36:50 PM
10,000 wow, thats great news.  I still have 4 of those!
Title: Re: Mr.Clean's Device
Post by: synchro1 on November 14, 2012, 04:32:23 PM
@syncrho1,
Remember that thane heins used laminates from ordinary trafos on his prototype, but using High permeability cores would be best.

What kind of ordinary transformers? Silicon steel laminations have a much higher permeability then iron. Just briefly; Metglass toroids are a lamination as well. A rolled up strip. Laminations decrease eddy currents in any magnetic core material. This helps the material demagnatize from the induced electromagnetic field. 4000u is not that great compared to Metglass at 1,000,000u. This is a measure of frequency. How fast can the core magnatize and then return to it's demagnatized state per second. At 2200u it's about half the rate. Mr. Clean has an operating frequency that is around 30khz. Half the frequency will transform half the power. Those C cores are only capable of transforming around half the power of Mr. Clean's ferrite toroids. Without knowing exactly what kind of material Thane Hein's laminations are made from, it's not safe to assume anything. Where's it say they're not Mu-metal? You're right that the higher the permeability, the better the magnetic transformer core. Thane's transformer laminations could easily be made from metglass strips with the highest possible permeability. This would be my guess over soft iron.
Title: Re: Mr.Clean's Device
Post by: crazycut06 on November 15, 2012, 12:53:16 PM

What kind of ordinary transformers? Silicon steel laminations have a much higher permeability then iron. Just briefly; Metglass toroids are a lamination as well. A rolled up strip. Laminations decrease eddy currents in any magnetic core material. This helps the material demagnatize from the induced electromagnetic field. 4000u is not that great compared to Metglass at 1,000,000u. This is a measure of frequency. How fast can the core magnatize and then return to it's demagnatized state per second. At 2200u it's about half the rate. Mr. Clean has an operating frequency that is around 30khz. Half the frequency will transform half the power. Those C cores are only capable of transforming around half the power of Mr. Clean's ferrite toroids. Without knowing exactly what kind of material Thane Hein's laminations are made from, it's not safe to assume anything. Where's it say they're not Mu-metal? You're right that the higher the permeability, the better the magnetic transformer core. Thane's transformer laminations could easily be made from metglass strips with the highest possible permeability. This would be my guess over soft iron.


I really don't know what type of laminates he used, i just thought that it would be soft iron, i think how he got his result is because the design of the trafo, without thinking much on permeability, iv'e haven't experimented much with this, so im just guessing, i don't remember if he ever mentioned the type of laminates he used in his videos.
Title: Re: Mr.Clean's Device
Post by: synchro1 on November 15, 2012, 02:18:23 PM
@Crazycut06,
 
                I read somewhere Thane's laminates are Metglass. It comes in rolls. The material is very costly. They look like ordinary
soft iron. Huge difference.
Title: Re: Mr.Clean's Device
Post by: Poit on November 15, 2012, 02:44:31 PM
you guys sure like to complicate things. As far as I can see its fairly simple (or at least should be). Mr Clean has made it obvious that he is willing to share his findings (he has already made a circuit diagram to the best of his ability, or at least for the time being).

So whats with all the discussion and guess work? wait till he can provide a definitive guide to replicating his project, then, replicate. simple. whats with all the cgi graphics of the toroid designs and possible improvements etc etc etc.... whats the problem with just replicating what he has done in the videos?'

over to you Mr Clean for further clarification on replications. cheers mate :)

Poit
Title: Re: Mr.Clean's Device
Post by: synchro1 on November 15, 2012, 03:01:11 PM
@Poit,
 
         Mr. Clean reported he can't get it to work all the time. I believe increasing the contact area between the double "O" toroid edges would help. Too much contact would kill it. The output is self looped but can't supply it's own signal power. Increasing core permeability would improve the device performance tremendously. His configuration is outstanding. Higher perm toroids with the optimal reluctance ratio have the potential to help it run better and more reliably. The problem is; I can't find anything shopping online that fits the bill. I would try to cold mold a core from Nickle Zinc ferrite powder and epoxy if I had some assurance the permeability would be higher.
Title: Re: Mr.Clean's Device
Post by: verpies on November 15, 2012, 07:01:53 PM
I read somewhere Thane's laminates are Metglass. It comes in rolls. The material is very costly. They look like ordinary
soft iron. Huge difference.
Yes, this ferromagnetic tape is very permeable. It consists of nanocrystalline metal or amorphous metal that can reach permeabilities 1 000 000 times greater than air.
It is not that expensive any more. 20mm OD toroidal cores can be bought for $8. Large ones from Honywell for several hundred $$$.

I have seen an Annis-Eberly style self-runner made out of those Honeywell cores, functioning for 6h, but I was not allowed to inspect it.  It was an open frame design and it was obvious that no batteries were hidden inside. and no large caps were used.
Title: Re: Mr.Clean's Device
Post by: synchro1 on November 15, 2012, 08:35:09 PM
The problem is that magnetic flux won't travel top to bottem between Metglass taped toroid's in contact the way it travels between Mr. Clean's solid ferrite toroids. Thane figured out how to wrap his bi-toroid with close to one continuous strip. The flux travels fine sideways. The challenge here is to locate stock solid ferrite toroids that are shaped like Mr. Cleans but have a higher permeability rating. I found some rated at 10.000u, but they involve a special order.
Title: Re: Mr.Clean's Device
Post by: synchro1 on November 16, 2012, 04:35:33 PM
I imagine an Omega shaped semi toroid of metglass laminates, bridging two metglass toroids, that make contact from the side, modeled after Mr. Cleans configuration. The metglass comes in rolls of similar gauge and permeability as the toroids, and is easy to cut and shape.
Title: Re: Mr.Clean's Device
Post by: synchro1 on December 14, 2012, 01:45:48 AM
Mr. Clean's new bi-toroid transformer:
 
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVcdGB9KJ9s (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVcdGB9KJ9s)