Author Topic: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE (Read 2352699 times)

SolarLab · « **Reply #4920 on:** May 21, 2023, 07:07:59 PM »

Quote from: floodrod on May 21, 2023, 12:59:56 PM

Thanks Maddmann- I viewed the patent but can't clearly make out the coil arrangements. I don't mind trying things, and yes I have many dozens of coil styles to play with. But I would need a clearer diagram of the coil arrangement to duplicate.

SL- Can you show which Figuera image has a completed path? They all look incomplete to me, even the 1908. I agree tho that we probably didn't receive the correct complete coil arrangement.

It was from #30378 (attached) - the picture attached to the patent (source ?) - is found in Hanon's collection.

Not a big deal - just that when doing magnetic stuff, I've found that the "Magnetic Circuit" - when considered as
part of the overall design - can (and in most cases does) make a real difference.

In the attached pictiure from the patent, the "octagon ring" around the outside "completes the magnetic circuit."
[bottom drawing - side view]

SL

SolarLab · « **Reply #4921 on:** May 21, 2023, 07:36:31 PM »

The books I referenced re: "Magnetic Circuits" are:

Practical Transformer Handbook by Irving Gottlieb
(magnetic circuit referenced throught - search)

Introduction To AC Machine Design by Thomas A. Lipo
(magnetic circuit referenced throught - search)

[try pdfdrive]

Also, for a quick look try:

https://iopscience.iop.org/book/mono/978-0-7503-2084-9/chapter/bk978-0-7503-2084-9ch1

[table 1.1 - Analogy of an Electric Circuit and a Magnetic Circuit]

floodrod · « **Reply #4922 on:** May 22, 2023, 01:17:08 AM »

SL,

The coil arrangements are probably a big part. But I am not sold on connecting the path closed yet. Even the diagram you posted, only the negatives are closed. And Electromagnets "A" are totally separate from Electromagnets "B". On neither side is there a magnetic path provided for the flux to travel from North to South of any electromagnet. And on the 1908 patent, (including Buforn's) it appears there is only a center core in the center induced, which extends under 1/2 way into the primary electromagnets. But neither end electromagnet have a full core, nevermind a complete enclosed core.

And trust me, I have tried with a fully closed path, 3 coil transformer, 4 coil transformer, open path, half core, and every other way you can probably imagine. But the secret recipe remains elusive to me.

Actually I recently posted a pic where I used 3 groups Figura style coils that have 2 outside inducers with 1 induced in the center. The core goes through the middle and extends 1/2 way into each outside electromagnet. I will attach it again below.

Seems Cifta caught the gist of the device as I see it.. The waves are obviously positive biased. And N and N face each other. But when the machine is in action and working, the electromagnets no longer are N and N. They become N and S to match Figuera's labels... The growing North actually pushes the Shrinking North past the zero line, thus Making it South..

The gain mechanism is that part exactly. We get Full South induction power on one side while the electromagnet is hooked up in the direction where it should be North! So Lorentz reciprocal action occurs as normal, but the primaries input wires are reversed!

As I stated many times, I think the missing ingredient is the electrical connection link between the weakening and growing coils, which the original resistor rig provided. The weakening electromagnet must allow current to flow to the growing electromagnet, but we should NEVER allow the growing electromagnets current to connect to the shrinking. So the Lorentz reciprocation that the shrinking magnet absorbs can flow to the growing electromagnet.

What I am saying is that the original resistor rig may be necessary. Unless we find a way to switch diodes on both sides every 1/2 wave.

SolarLab · « **Reply #4923 on:** May 22, 2023, 05:53:08 AM »

Hi Floodrod,

For clarification, when refering to "Magnetic Circuit" it might be more descriptive to
refer to this as "the Flux Path."

Anyway, if you have a chance, take a look at Lipo's book, in particular starting at
1.26 thru 1.30 to get a feel for the needed flux path, including a return flux path.

This all considers how the "Iron" and "Air Gaps" integrate within a "Flux Path," including
the "Flux Return Path" to complete the "Magnetic Circuit." Hard to explain in a brief
paragraph or two - that's why I referenced the books. [See 1.28 in Lipo.]

Magnetic Fields don't do well traveling through any length of air and will likely not do well
trying to find a magnetic circuit flux path in a split longitudinal setup (end to end in a
straight line), the "air gap" is too long and the flux isn't directed in any way.

Whatever... I could be totally wrong, so take it FWIW. But in your picture I only see "3 coils"
sitting in free space, along side several more "3 coil" sets, - if you were a flux looking for
some direction, or path, including a return path, where would you go?

Regards,

SL

rakarskiy · « **Reply #4924 on:** May 22, 2023, 10:27:12 AM »

Quote from: floodrod on May 22, 2023, 01:17:08 AM

https://overunity.com/12794/re-inventing-the-wheel-part1-clemente_figuera-the-infinite-energy-machine/msg578180/#msg578180

Hello!

You stepped on the same rake as the previous researcher, in terms of the magnetic circuit of the Figuera generator.

My little analysis of Figuera's patents and what and where intersects with systems, including missing patents. If the buyer buys a patent and rights, then obviously he wants to be the sole owner.

In the drawing patent No. 30378 Figuera, there are two planes transverse and longitudinal.

Sincerely, I wish you success.

floodrod · « **Reply #4925 on:** May 22, 2023, 12:26:29 PM »

For clarification, I am appreciative of your sharing's. That image was in attempts to replicate the attached arrangement (in the patent) as it appears to me.

Attached are 2 other completely closed ones I have tried. As I said, I tried full cores, half cores, partial cores, no cores, etc.

I also plan to build one where the center induced coil is actually wrapped around the 2 connected halves of the electromagnets.

As was pointed out before by another member, there is a good chance Figuera's design does not capitalize on "Mutual Inductance" like the transformers of today. Perhaps it is non-advantageous to allow the flux to pass through both poles of both electromagnets.

But in all honesty, I am not sure of any of it. I am stumbling around in the dark like all who attempted before me.

rakarskiy · « **Reply #4926 on:** May 22, 2023, 01:55:07 PM »

floodrod,

See how the generator works. You have assembled a transformer, but you need a generator. What you have done is a simplification.

For example, you draw a transformer with windings separated (FIGURE) in the opposite direction. In your case and in this design, the magnetic flux will be equal to the excitation magnetic flux. This is a transformer, the secondary circuit can no longer be removed. A generator is when the magnetic flux of the primary excitation is starting, and the main one is from the output phase. That is, in the generator, the main flux of the magnetic field forms a phase, and the excitation and phase fluxes are added. I also struggled with this, which is why current limitation in the primary excitation circuit is required. The complexity of this particular design is to catch the current from the phase and keep it in the presence of an appropriate load. On demand with load changes, this is not possible. Breakdowns happen even in synchronous mechanical generators. In low power generators with self-excitation, permanent magnets are built into the rotor housing.
For now, I have adopted a different concept for the impulse flyback convector. For a solid state generator, it's more efficient to build a machine like Holcomb or Sun.

Try to connect a large load to the phase. through a transformer.

Ufopolitics · « **Reply #4927 on:** May 22, 2023, 03:03:10 PM »

Hello to All,

I have been reading all your progress on this thread plus in all your individual ones (I am basically referring to Cadman and Floodrod, real builders here)
As some of you know I have also played with Figuera Patent(s) in the past...I did see some huge anomalies, however, did not reach Overunity.
However, the main reason I decided to add this post, relates to the way I see Floodrod is making the coils CORES (All).

And this is just my opinion guys:
By using a typical, not "modified" Transformer Core like shown in the pictures, or the Two E-Frame facing each others...
Aren't you shunting each coils magnetic field?
According to my knowledge about steel cores and magnetic fields, you would be able to "project" a longer and stronger field if there is only a CENTER Core within coil(s). However, if you have another steel frame (on both sides like Dual E-Frames structures do) will definitively "short out" field POLES...then this field will have its own return (from N to S) within its own Steel Core...then the projection to seconday and even to primary on the other side at 180 degrees would be very weak.

Note on the Figuera Patent image, shown on Floodrod's previous post, where it shows the array of N-S with the "Y" member (output) sandwhiched between...please note a "rectangle shaped" component which travels between all three parts exactly in their center [[N]-[y]-[S]]
Wouldn't this rectangle indicates to have a single core between all three coils parts?

On the other hand, I wanted to say that I highly agree with your observations related to a shrinking North will become a South, while an expanding North will keep being a North...that is very, extremely correct!!
When we weaken an electromagnet, by reducing its input current, (not fully collapsing it!!) the magnetic spin takes the opposite direction, exactly the same way when you pull a permanent magnet away...

Just like Minkowsky wrote on his Spacetime book about the "corkscrew effect" of the magnetic field.

@Cadman: You are making a heck of a build my friend!!...plus I love the way you are using the own exciters (primaries) as the reducers of the field, by setting multiple flat coils which turn on and off at a sequential order...instead of using resistors!!
This way no energy will be wasted on resistors heat, and the reduction will take place within the inner exciting system.
Excellent idea there friend!!

Regards to all

Ufopolitics

rakarskiy · « **Reply #4928 on:** May 22, 2023, 04:05:22 PM »

Quote from: Ufopolitics on May 22, 2023, 03:03:10 PM

Note on the Figuera Patent image, shown on Floodrod's previous post, where it shows the array of N-S with the "Y" member (output) sandwhiched between...please note a "rectangle shaped" component which travels between all three parts exactly in their center [[N]-[y]-[S]]
Wouldn't this rectangle indicates to have a single core between all three coils parts?

Good time!

Description from FIEGUER Patent No. 30378 (1902)

Quote

The undersigned inventors compose their generator as follows: Several electromagnets are placed one in front of the other, the poles of opposite names being separated by a small distance. The cores of all these electromagnets are formed in such a way that they quickly magnetize and demagnetize and do not retain residual magnetism. In the empty space remaining between the pole faces of the electromagnets of these two series, the induced wire passes one by one, or several, or many. The excitatory current, intermittent or alternating, drives all the electromagnets, which are connected either in series or in parallel, or as necessary, and currents will arise in the inductive circuit, which together constitute the total current of the generator. This allows the mechanical force to be suppressed as there is nothing to be moved.

Note
Invention of an electrical generator without the application of mechanical force, since nothing moves, which produces the same effects of operating dynamo-electric machines thanks to several stationary electromagnets excited by intermittent or alternating current, which creates induction in a stationary inductive circuit placed within the magnetic fields of the exciting electromagnets.

It is technically impossible to fulfill such a condition. I tried to do this many times. If a groove is used, then there will be no magnetic lines of force in the groove that will cross the inductor wire. In the cavity of the groove, the magnetic induction will be several times less, which will not allow the formation of conditions for the fulfillment of the formula: E=B_mlv
I trust the drawing more than the actual description, which could have been changed. In reality, only the drawing is authentic.

Note from the 1908 patent (after Figer's death). I am convinced that there is no essence of a magnetic circuit in it, and "y" between pairs of north-south poles is nothing more than a metaphor.

PS. Do not take for trolling, this is a sober look. The gap is needed to organize the linearity of the change in the magnetic flux, plus the ease of remagnetization (in a closed magnetic circuit, this is very costly to do, plus the linearity of the magnetic flux cannot be achieved). Resistive controller for limiting the current in the excitation circuit. The main magnetic flux must be from the current strength of the phase with the load. Everything is like in the operation of a synchronous mechanical generator.

floodrod · « **Reply #4929 on:** May 22, 2023, 04:08:24 PM »

Excellent reply UFO. Thank you.. I am pleased that others are discussing this, especially how the shrinking side crosses the zero line from the growing side.

Now to see the next step. Once the shrinking side passes the zero line, the current is reversed. It starts flowing from negative to positive while inducing.

Problem is I am using bridge rectifiers which do not allow current to flow from negative to positive. So the only current I could get to pass the zero line is the reverse diode leakage that can get through.

I believe the original resistor rig worked to direct the current that passed the zero line from the shrinking electromagnet back to the growing electromagnet.

The discussions about the coil cores are interesting, but I think premature because we do not have the entire system mapped out yet to even test it.

The coils could be correct and perfect, but we would never know because we do not have a path for the current that passes the zero line to return anywhere.

bistander · « **Reply #4930 on:** May 22, 2023, 04:55:39 PM »

Quote from: rakarskiy on May 22, 2023, 04:05:22 PM

...
It is technically impossible to fulfill such a condition. I tried to do this many times. If a groove is used, then there will be no magnetic lines of force in the groove that will cross the inductor wire. In the cavity of the groove, the magnetic induction will be several times less, which will not allow the formation of conditions for the fulfillment of the formula: E=B_mlv
...

Hello Mr. Rakarskiy,
Yet all these (millions) of motors and generators work extremely well using wires in grooves. Perhaps you need to adjust your understanding of the process. This may be helpful. In the video, he explains how energy is "carried" not in the wire, but rather in field around the wire. The steel of the core surrounding the groove facilitate these fields. Force results from field interaction.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oI_X2cMHNe0

A side note. Often claimed in these field motion generator schemes is that there is no force (or torque). This is untrue. There is force resulting per Lorentz. However there is the machine structure providing a counter force not allowing any motion. Since no motion, no displacement, there is no energy associated with said force. But the force is still present.
bi

rakarskiy · « **Reply #4931 on:** May 22, 2023, 05:46:24 PM »

Quote from: bistander on May 22, 2023, 04:55:39 PM

Hello Mr. Rakarskiy,
Yet all these (millions) of motors and generators work extremely well using wires in grooves. Perhaps you need to adjust your understanding of the process. This may be helpful. In the video, he explains how energy is "carried" not in the wire, but rather in field around the wire. The steel of the core surrounding the groove facilitate these fields. Force results from field interaction.

Hello!

I'm just not denying that it works, the question is how it works and the whole process for half a degree of a whole period. . I gave a slide of the EMF generator in the thread about Holcomb.
The figure in the patent also lacks elements. I submit that the patents have been redacted. He outlined his version in his book in some detail.
Can you tell how a transformer works? but as a generator, what is their parity and what is the difference.
I have too many rakes on the official version of the processes.
I will again disappear for a while, otherwise I had a difficult period, unfinished business accumulated, including on the issue of interest.

Sincerely.

Cadman · « **Reply #4932 on:** May 23, 2023, 03:41:47 PM »

The missing patent page?

This is a page from the Buforn patent 57955.
Download the attached .png and zoom in and out on the blank area just above the signatures and look around. Do you see it?
It looks like an electrical diagram and it could possibly be ink transferred from a page pressing against this drawing page, like would happen with the pages stored in a file folder for a long time. It's all over the drawing.

floodrod · « **Reply #4933 on:** May 24, 2023, 01:14:25 PM »

A fine builder I speak to from Spain who does not post anywhere shared some fascinating build videos with me.

Although we are going through translators, he thinks the Figuera Coils are built similar to Thane Hanes bi-torroid. Which explains Buforn's drawings and anomalies..

You can see for some reason he draws the core on top of the coils. That "Know-it-all" user thought it was clamps holding the coils down, I thought it was partial cores, but what this builder from span says makes sense..

The analysis he puts forth says that Buforn's drawing is the Top-View.. If viewed from the side, it would look like Thane Heinz transformer with the 3 coils inside a closed core. (possible with air gaps) He shows a video to me of his setup lowering input current when shorting the pickup coil..

Something to consider.. And it makes sense with Buforn's drawing.

Ufopolitics · « **Reply #4934 on:** May 24, 2023, 01:58:20 PM »

Quote from: Ufopolitics on May 22, 2023, 03:03:10 PM

[...]
Note on the Figuera Patent image, shown on Floodrod's previous post, where it shows the array of N-S with the "Y" member (output) sandwhiched between...please note a "rectangle shaped" component which travels between all three parts exactly in their center [[N]-[y]-[S]]
Wouldn't this rectangle indicates to have a single core between all three coils parts?

Ufopolitics

Hello Floodrod,
Yes, and that was exactly what I have pointed out on my previous post yesterday, quoted above.
Now, the question is...Why does that rectangle does not runs all the way from end to end to both primaries?
IMHO, Figuera wanted to concentrate the field mostly on the "y" output coil(s), not all the way back of primaries, where the field will travel too far away from secondary part "y".
Also, IMO, I do not think it had air gaps between primaries and y part, just one solid piece of laminated steel right inside the coils.
Now, I know that according to CAD drawing conventions, if this rectangle was supposed to be inside coils it should have been done with dotted lines.
So, maybe it was done intentionally to bring it up to attention, or it was just an error from whoever did the drawings...it happens.
Not disregarding the possibility to be an E- Frame like a typical transformer have...but then again the question: why not draw it all the way to the end of each primary if it was so?

Regards

Ufopolitics

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Author Topic: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE (Read 2352699 times)

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