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Author Topic: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE  (Read 2334351 times)

alan

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Alan
Here all the longtime researchers from your YouTube links
Are now open sourcing
And sharing the many reasons why they started a new forum
https://www.beyondunity.org/thread/public-answer-to-chris/

Respectfully
Chet
Ps
Alan
You have been dropping crumbs for years here ,
Do you have an experiment ( actual gain mechanism?) to support your assertions ?


Open source is the only path forward…
Too many years of …..
?
 
Do you believe OU is possible? 

I trust Chris despite the negativity.    https://youtu.be/J9pjQOSkEuk
His POC closely resembles Figuera.

Cadman

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I have since succeeded in causing the Back-EMF to be high enough to flow back to the Positive input lead and flow current back to the source using 2 coil positive biased 180 shifted waves. Theoretically it should now be possible (with the right coil setup and frequency parameters) to transfer inducted power that we pull into Back-EMF and send it back to the input to feed the circuit.

I don't know about all the cutting / linking / compression, etc.  This setup is simulating reciprocation of 2 magnets of the same polarity (repelling) on each side of a coil. If both magnets move at the exact same time and speed, induction only occurs if 1 is approaching and 1 is going away.   Otherwise it bucks and no induction.

My goal is to use the pickup coil's field to push the emptying coil past the zero line into the full other polarity.

Hi Floodrod,

If you don't mind saying, what are your cores made of?


ramset

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Repost from alan’s post above

Quote from: ramset on May 04, 2023, 04:51:41 PM
Alan
Here all the longtime researchers from your YouTube links
Are now open sourcing
And sharing the many reasons why they started a new forum
https://www.beyondunity.org/thread/public-answer-to-chris/

Respectfully
Chet
Ps
Alan
You have been dropping crumbs for years here ,
Do you have an experiment ( actual gain mechanism?) to support your assertions ?


Open source is the only path forward…
Too many years of …..
?

—-////—-///////
  Alan reply,


Quote “Do you believe OU is possible? 
I trust Chris despite the negativity.    https://youtu.be/J9pjQOSkEuk
His POC closely resembles Figuera.”
End quote


Chet Response to allan ,

“Alan
I believe we swim in a sea of energy
At an atomic level


I also believe in Open source and the transparency
That goes hand in hand .
Claims need this to advance !


Is this an open source claim ?( 35 watts more out than in ?)
Are persons allowed to share for replication?


Respectfully
Chet K
Ps
Apologies to Floodrod for interrupting ( although it does seem that many contributions from alan have been specifically addressed to Floodrod recently…



floodrod

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Thanks SL..  Any data is always appreciated.

Cadman-  Cores are salvaged laminated iron from old chokes.

Ramset- No worries, ain't my thread.  300+ pages in this thread from many years.  I have no right to hijack it.  I will continue my updates in the other thread I started.  Leave this thread as a place where everyone can discuss. 

Any theories I come up with and post will be bench tested and results shared.  (good or bad)..

SolarLab

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Floodrod,

Ran a couple of schemes this weekend but did not see anything outstanding.
Just a first pass analysis however, so we shall see. Won't try to post any data.

Much more to be done; so there are a lot more scenerios to look at.

SL


alan

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"when the induced is approaching the center of another electromagnet with opposite sign to the first one"  <---  he was describing how a regular dynamo works..

With 1 way current, growing and shrinking 180 degrees out of phase, the only way it will induct is Like Polarities.. 

Shrinking North acts as South..
Shrinking South acts as North..

Growing North acts as North..
Growing South acts as South..

demonstrating this on a live bench. 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Syk9t7foYQ
You're right, I wasn't aware of this: 
https://www.youtube.com/embed/8FXPmYGIOs4

floodrod

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Thanks Solar Lab,  If I may suggest, please reference the Buforn patents to see the coil / core arrangements.  It seems they used a full core in the pickup coil with the ends extending and intruding into the driver coil's hollows.  But the iron through the driver coils appears to go under 1/2 way and does not make contact with the other pole.

I have been experimenting and am seeing pretty big differences in % of power that gets passed to the source with different arrangements.  Both frequency and core arrangements swing the results.

Alan- thanks for posting that.  Now if you can, think how a transformer flux works when the secondary passes it's magnetic field back through the primary which raises input.  With positive biased waves, we get real AC from the induced, but now we never flip polarity on the primary input.  Try to picture how the downward cycle will affect the primary under these circumstances. 

And if you see what I am saying, now if we use 2 coils out of phase, we can start to see why the resistor rig is of upmost importance.  It has a direct connection between both coils.  Electronic versions will be useless unless we can establish a way for the emptying electromagnet to allow current flow to the filling,  but never the filling to the emptying.

alan

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Transformer logic is confusing. When a secondary is loaded, emf and current add to the primary circuit which are caused by the flux created by the secondary current, and the power source has to deliver the extra current that is demanded. 
I'll look into it.

citfta

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      Transformer logic doesn't need to be complicated or confusing.  All you need to understand is what impedance is.  Power transformers are designed to operate at a certain frequency.  At the designed frequency an unloaded transformer has a very high impedance because as the current and voltage increase the flux density also increases rapidly and thus limits the amount of current going through the primary of the transformer.  When a load is applied to the secondary the secondary windings draw current from the increasing flux and this allows the primary current to go higher than in an unloaded condition.  The current being draw by the secondary reduces the flux and this lowers the impedance of the primary and thus the primary current goes up.


If you operate a power transformer at a frequency it is not designed for it will have a higher input current even when the secondary is not loaded.  It will also run hotter because of the higher input current.  60 Hz transformers do not do well at 400 Hz.


Respectfully,
Carroll

alan

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Yeah, but (from my understanding, how I see it) the current isn't (directly) drawn from the flux, but the flux creates an output emf which causes a current to flow and when the current flows through the  secondary coil, it in turn generates an mmf and its flux that has the polarity to oppose the flux that caused the voltage in the secondary, causing magnetic induction in the primary that adds to the self-induction (right-hand rule applied to i1 and flux2)  if the secondary coil is used as a negative power source. And the secondary becomes the primary and the primary the secondary, similar to what is said about generators that simultaneously functions as a motor with a back-torque. 

Split the positive, or break the symmetry with (bread crumbs) multiple coils that buck, and the back-reaction adds to the output  and counter-reaction has a flux in the same direction as the  input coil instead. 
Something like this (again): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xmJr4_gHygo


Respectfully.

a.king21

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Thanks Solar Lab,  If I may suggest, please reference the Buforn patents to see the coil / core arrangements.  It seems they used a full core in the pickup coil with the ends extending and intruding into the driver coil's hollows.  But the iron through the driver coils appears to go under 1/2 way and does not make contact with the other pole.

I have been experimenting and am seeing pretty big differences in % of power that gets passed to the source with different arrangements.  Both frequency and core arrangements swing the results.

Alan- thanks for posting that.  Now if you can, think how a transformer flux works when the secondary passes it's magnetic field back through the primary which raises input.  With positive biased waves, we get real AC from the induced, but now we never flip polarity on the primary input.  Try to picture how the downward cycle will affect the primary under these circumstances. 

And if you see what I am saying, now if we use 2 coils out of phase, we can start to see why the resistor rig is of upmost importance.  It has a direct connection between both coils.  Electronic versions will be useless unless we can establish a way for the emptying electromagnet to allow current flow to the filling,  but never the filling to the emptying.
I have had a good read and would like to make the following comments.
My comments are with good intentions and I am trying to help.

Floodrod.
I have been looking at the Figuera device for at least a decade, and have come to the following conclusions.
The Figuera patent cannot work as described.
You are magnetizing 2 electromagnets N and S and causing an induced current in y.
How on earth can THAT produce more out than in?
IT CAN'T!! You know it and I know it and every OU researcher knows it.
(If you can prove me wrong I will be highly delighted.)
However, there is one thing you are all missing.
In my opinion, Figuera can only work if it generates plasma in the rotating contact device (or if we use a better modern frame of reference): the distributor cap.
Take a look at a working distributor cap and look at the electricity carefully.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0u9qsvPEcE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCBw11fymiQ
My advice is to get hold of an 8-cylinder distributor cap from a scrap yard (16-cylinder would be better), modify the rotor to make more contacts, and generate plasma.
You can probably 3d print a modified rotor. (or maybe 3d print the distributor cap also)
Then you are in the same ballpark as Carlos Benitez, and the Alexander patent.
Then you can possibly get newly magnetized electrons in and around the distributor cap to enter your device.
Remember the initial descriptions said that Figuera was getting electricity from the air. I suspect he dumbed down his patent to protect his invention.
Now, at least,  we have a logical working principle of operation.
At that time it was also common for coils to come complete with interrupters. Interrupters were often not even referred to in patents as everyone knew that a transformer would only work with an interrupter in those days.
In my opinion, it is a huge mistake to look at very old patents and try to modernize them using MOSFETs and solid-state switching devices. Very often the stuff we remove is the stuff that made these old devices work.


onepower

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Alan
Quote
Yeah, but (from my understanding, how I see it) the current isn't (directly) drawn from the flux, but the flux creates an output emf which causes a current to flow and when the current flows through the  secondary coil, it in turn generates an mmf and its flux that has the polarity to oppose the flux that caused the voltage in the secondary, causing magnetic induction in the primary that adds to the self-induction (right-hand rule applied to i1 and flux2)  if the secondary coil is used as a negative power source. And the secondary becomes the primary and the primary the secondary, similar to what is said about generators that simultaneously functions as a motor with a back-torque. 

I think you get it and many other people give answers which only raise more questions not less.

Quote
And the secondary becomes the primary and the primary the secondary, similar to what is said about generators that simultaneously functions as a motor with a back-torque.

When dealing with AC induction the lead/lag phase relationship gives us an indication of where the energy in the system is and what it's doing. Imagine two wheels (driver/load) connected by a belt which alternates as a push/pull in direction. The voltage/current lead/lag equates to the belt tension versus it's direction. The energy relates to the belt tension/direction and the distance it traveled in a given time period. We can make simple analogies so this stuff is easier to understand and we can find better answers. 

On a note of interest, in belt connected motor/generator systems rapid load changes causes the belt tension to change which does in fact effect the phase relationship between the two. The mechanical system does effect the electrical system.

First we should look at the actual cause and effect of a load on an inductance. When we apply a current to an inductor the current rises and the magnetic field expands until the current reaches a steady state as seen in the picture below. Once the inductor reaches a steady state it loses it's self inductance, doesn't act like an inductor but more so a resistance heater dissipating energy as heat.

Our inductor could induce a second coil like a transformer but there's a catch. It can only induce another coil while the current/magnetic field is changing but not when the current or magnetic field reaches steady state and is not changing. Now if we added a load to our second coil it's current would produce a second magnetic field which opposes the first which induced it. This second magnetic field increases the total magnetic field density(first plus second field) faster than expected. The effect is that the total magnetic field density around the inductor is now greater than the current flowing through it. The total magnetic field present gives the appearance of a steady state and now the inductor current has to rise to catch up. This is why as the second coil load current rises the first coils current must also rise.

I think it makes much more sense once we understand there are two currents and two magnetic fields present in a transformer. I use infinite element analysis which is like looking at every measurement and how it relates to one another in one slice of time. Then we start adding slices together in groups to see how a change in one place effects all the other places. This lumping things together and averaging never works in my opinion.

AC 




onepower

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aking21
Quote
I have been looking at the Figuera device for at least a decade, and have come to the following conclusions.
The Figuera patent cannot work as described.
You are magnetizing 2 electromagnets N and S and causing an induced current in y.
How on earth can THAT produce more out than in?

Apparent simplicity can be deceiving, did you know wind power follows the cube rule?.

When the wind speed doubles the power available is now 8 times larger ie 2x2x2=8. At first it seemed very non-intuitive to me. Until we understand that twice the mass of air moved through a given plane at twice the velocity. It's not only the velocity but the mass-velocity or total change in momentum which determines the power.

So we need to be careful about looking at things in a superficial sense. What peaked my curiosity is that Figuera often spoke of the total amount of change within the system. Implying that like the power in wind there's more energy available than meets the eye. Something simple already present but so non-intuitive almost everyone overlooked it.

AC

SolarLab

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I have had a good read and would like to make the following comments.
My comments are with good intentions and I am trying to help.

Floodrod.
I have been looking at the Figuera device for at least a decade, and have come to the following conclusions.

The Figuera patent cannot work as described.
You are magnetizing 2 electromagnets N and S and causing an induced current in y.
How on earth can THAT produce more out than in?
IT CAN'T!! You know it and I know it and every OU researcher knows it.
(If you can prove me wrong I will be highly delighted.)

However, there is one thing you are all missing.
In my opinion, Figuera can only work if it generates plasma in the rotating contact device (or if we use a better modern frame of reference): the distributor cap.
Take a look at a working distributor cap and look at the electricity carefully.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0u9qsvPEcE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCBw11fymiQ
My advice is to get hold of an 8-cylinder distributor cap from a scrap yard (16-cylinder would be better), modify the rotor to make more contacts, and generate plasma.
You can probably 3d print a modified rotor. (or maybe 3d print the distributor cap also)
Then you are in the same ballpark as Carlos Benitez, and the Alexander patent.
Then you can possibly get newly magnetized electrons in and around the distributor cap to enter your device.
Remember the initial descriptions said that Figuera was getting electricity from the air. I suspect he dumbed down his patent to protect his invention.
Now, at least,  we have a logical working principle of operation.
At that time it was also common for coils to come complete with interrupters. Interrupters were often not even referred to in patents as everyone knew that a transformer would only work with an interrupter in those days.
In my opinion, it is a huge mistake to look at very old patents and try to modernize them using MOSFETs and solid-state switching devices. Very often the stuff we remove is the stuff that made these old devices work.


a.king21,

It appears some of Figuera's patents work in a similar fashion as the Holcomb devices (LinGen analysis - see the OUR Holcomb thread). Also,
there is some good technical information on the Holcomb web site and HES facebook page.

One of the primary gain mechanisms is found by examining the material B-H Curve. Another is the concept of only moving the Magnetic Field.

Also, in the above post, AC makes the point of increasing the "frequency of operation" - only having to move the magnetic field makes this viable.
Therefore, any small gains can add up quickly. Don Smith used this in his scheme. Combining only these might do it! Some interesting stuff IMHO.

FWIW... Holcomb patent analysis starts about here - a.k.a. "LinGen;" and includes patent review, support material, and animated CAE cartoons:
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=4261.msg98509#msg98509


SL
« Last Edit: May 10, 2023, 04:19:23 AM by SolarLab »

floodrod

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IMO, there are 2 main parts that interest me.

First, if we can make two north magnets attract instead of repel- we would have free energy.  But the nature of magnets make them want to repel.  Usually if we want an induction coil to turn South, we need to interface the coil with a growing South pole. Then the pickup coil will attempt to stop the change and turn South. But Figuera accomplishes this with a whole new technique.  He makes that coil go South by "Pulling away" a North Field. 

He is obviously not inducting "Y" with standard AC through 2 electromagnets.  He is inducting "Y" with a positive biased wave and never flips polarity of the input.  This in itself opens a whole new can of worms.

Second-  I don't think part 1 alone is enough.  It may be the main mechanism of gain, but more is needed to fully make use of it.  Notice his coil setup is also NOT a standard transformer.  One would think the adding more groups of coils would not increase efficiency because each added group will require more input.  But I do not think this is the case.

Lenz is the effect of an increased magnetic field working against us.  I see no reason why there could not be a configuration where that "increased field" could be harvested to dampen or even completely counter the ill-effects of Lenz.

I also think it is completely unjust to compare this setup to standard known transformer induction as we know it. Not only is the driving current method / polarities altered, but so is the the coil arrangement.

I did not take offense- and we all have our own opinions. I may be wasting my time- but I am OK with that. 

PS.  I have all the magnet wire I need to build a big coil rig. I just don't want to build that part yet till I see exactly how they need to be configured and designed.  And I am still struggling with electronic version in establishing the transfer connection between the shrinking and growing sides.

Some say the electronic version can not work.  They may be right.  But the patents clearly say it can be accomplished in many ways..

"we have to create a magnetic field that can be formed by electro-magnets with cores of
iron or steel and arrange that the field current flows through a constant and
ordered series of variations in intensity. That can easily be achieved in various
ways
."

I believe if we uncover the exact dynamics behind it, they can be reproduced with todays electronics.

Edit- Responding to this quote..  "You are magnetizing 2 electromagnets N and S and causing an induced current in y."

Not exactly precise.  We are magnetizing 2 electromagnets Growing North and Shrinking North and causing an induced current in y.  But we are not using "South" at all.  I can show the electromagnets WILL turn South from the interaction between the coils, even though we never send incoming current in the direction that makes it go South.  And I believe this is the whole gain mechanism.