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Author Topic: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE  (Read 1646666 times)

Offline gyulasun

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Hi NRamaswami,

First of all please bare with me, I try to answer in due order as my time permits.

At the moment it is the core you may wish to decide on, what are the mechanical sizes of the straight "I" laminations you have got?  (If they are I shaped, that is, for I assume you wish to use three electromagnets in a straight line, right?)  So you may wish to think about fitting I laminates with rectangular cross section into say a 4 inch dia cylindrical PVC tube, if this is what you are planning.

Regarding your trifilar and bifilar experiments and the different current draws, it is against common findings: it is okay how you connected the trifilar (or bifilar) windings but then the L inductance for such trifilar coil (three windings connected in series as you also described) should increase about 8-9 times with respect to that of a single wire winding having the same # of turns. And this should be a 3-4 times increase in case of a bifilar coil. 

So the AC impedances should also increase in the same amount: from a single wire coil having say Z=40 Ohm, the impedance would be 9 x 40= 360 Ohm for a trifilar coil having the same number of turns than the single wire coil. 
And then the current draw should decrease: from 220V/40 Ohm=5.5A to 220V/360 Ohm=0.61A.  I understand that you found the 32A office tripper tripped for your trifilar coil and your bifilar drew 18A, so there is a puzzle here: perhaps the winding styles for the trifilar (and for the bifilar) coils were very different with respect to the single wire coil, not allowing for an inductance (hence impedance) increase but a decrease!

Regarding your Ohm meter readings: when you directly short the two measuring tips to each other, ideally you should see 0.000 Ohm in any range, including the 2k range. If this is not the case,  then you have to substract the non-zero Ohm part from the measured part: say the display shows 0.01 Ohm when you directly short the measuring pins and then you measure 0.08 Ohm on a coil, the true Ohm value would be 0.08-0.01=0.07 Ohm for that coil. By the way, using the smallest range (which is perhaps 200 Ohm for your meter) would give more precision (resolution) in your low Ohm measurement efforts.

Regarding your post on the magnet wire: it sounds the magnet wire available for you is not insulated but bare, otherwise you would not need to add insulation to cover it, right?  OR if you mean the magnet wire which is available for you is already has the usual enamel coating, then it does not need any further insulating layer and could be re-used several times. Please address this too.

More to come later. No need to hurry.


Gyula

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Offline Farmhand

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More interesting. Quote from end of page 20 to page 21

Quote
In many respects these motors are
similar to the continuous current motors. If load is put on, the
speed, and also the resistance of the motor, is diminished and
more current is made to pass through the energizing coils, thus

POLYPHASE CURRENTS. 21

increasing the effort
. Upon the load being taken off, the
counter-electromotive force increases and less current passes
through the primary or energizing coils
. Without any load the
speed is very nearly equal to that of the shifting poles of the
field magnet.

Cheers

Hi NRamaswami, I find if I make sharp bends in the magnet wire it can injure the insulation and even loosen the insulation from the wire when trying to straighten the tight kinks. Also the wire needs to be protected from sharp edges on the steel cores ( i wrap the core with wax paper"home made" or transformer tape). It is easily damaged by it rubbing on concrete or sharp steel edges. As long as the magnet wire is not kinked or wound into very small coils I find i can unwind it onto another spool and reuse it. Trick is to keep it under control and don;t allow sharp bends or injuries to the insulation that might cause fault later.

..

Offline NRamaswami

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Gyula:

Thank you so much.. There seems to be a diffeence in the way factory made 3 core coils work. They have huge insulation which is over and above the 1100 volt insultation of the single core wires and are rated to be capble of withstanding about 11000 volts I think. It is this insulated wire that took so much of amps.

When we duct taped the wires ourselves this did not happen. At that time the wires quadfilar wires took only 7 amps which is consistent with what you are saying. Does insulation huge insulation and gaps between wires have any thing to do with increased amperage consumption and increased magnetism.

If your statement on quadfilar wire is correct then I should be able to immediately replicate the 630 volts output experiment and check using a step down transformer what is the output. I guarantee that in this device when you keep the poles NS-NS-NS the output from the secondary increases with voltage increase. Not only does voltage increase but amperage also increases wth voltage.

I do not have that many I cores. They are very sharp and cut the hands and are only 6 inches long. We have electromagnets that are usually 5 to 6 feet long when we use the 4 inch tubes and so we use the cheap soft iron rods.

Doug:

We have done a small Square device Like this. CW-CW-CCW-CCW. All of them are placed in a rectangular way. It essentially means that the parallel electromagnets are wound in the opposite direction. and so we have the NS-NS-SN situation here. Not just that it is NS-NS-SN-SN ..

Results for you..

Each electromagnet 2.5 inch diameter. Soft iron core. 8 inches long.

Primary 4 sq mm wire on two oppposite electromagnets. Secondary1.5 sq mm wire on all the four.

Primary turns 35 x 3 layers. Secondary turns 65x 3 layers.

Total number of primary turns 105+105=210

Number of secondary turns 65x3=195 per electromagnet.
For 4 electromagnets Total secondary turns 195x4= 780 turns

Primary 210 turns and secondary 780 turns.

We gave a load of 220 volts and 7 amps and connected the circuit like this.. Mains Phase - Primary input - Primary output - Resistive load of 10x200 watts lamps - Mains Neutral.

Secondary was connected to secondary load.

Primary input 220x7 amps. = 1540 watts.

Secondary output -- only 12 volt lamp is able to burn in a light way.. Nothing more than that. Magnetism is present in all cores but is very weak in two of them and strong in two of them. Though the magnet is small the current given is significant and output is unacceptably low.

Primary and secondary are both only single core wires. I did not put them as routine electromagnets for the wires will not stand a chance to act as electromagnets. We will need a lot of turns of the primary wire being 4 sq mm wire and out experience is that it requires a minimum of 240 turns of wire for the magnet to remain stable.

We will repeat the experiment of Dieter as well and report.

My boys will test it now in NS-NS-NS configuration and I will report the output. I will also provide the primary and secondary turns. We will see the results. We will use the same above method and then find out what is the result in the secondary. I do not know theory and so I really go by the experimental results.

We will accept the experimental results.   

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Offline Doug1

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Marathonman

 "so unless you have a working device powering your home as we speak in which i ask you "why haven't you brought it forward" then i would suggest you drop the religious dogma that has corrupted you and go to anger management classes for getting mad at someone that is trying to desperately help this OU forum and myself get off the grid. i enjoy this forum and i welcome advise and suggestions from anyone and would never ever bad mouth anyone for bringing Dogmaless ideas to the table. when we solve this riddle i think there should be a CLEMENTE FIGUERAS day on the calendar .... GOOD LUCK MY FRIENDS"

 I did not get mad ,I'm still not mad.
  If you get it to work, I hope you have enough sense to check the Laws under which you live before you make a mistake that puts all your efforts into the trash can. Laws regarding commerce. If you had you would be right there with me.
  Anger is something that is earned.Maybe some day you will be angry to and when you think back to this day remember I don't hold any ill feeling towards you even if you may have thought so.
  I still believe in hope.

  So when you and your grand kids noticed the other coil in a coil, did you notice what it is connected to. Maybe it's not so much a coil as a form of shield to extend the block wall effect (bloch e i e i o). American humor regarding Old McDonnald.
 So in effort to help you to reach you objective I will direct you to the patent by tesla only because it is easy to understand. # 512340 The reason for the reference is the coil enables current to pass without opposition. It would not be influenced by the field in the core as it crosses the bloch wall giving you clean separation from the N and S pole ends of you cores. I did mention the patent a long time ago dont blame me if you all ignored it.

 The only way to get off the grid is to learn for yourself so it can never be taken away from you by anyone. I think your doing pretty good.
 Im touched by your concern that I need anger management, I will have to try to watch that show more often. Just kidding ,Im pretty passive most of the time though I agree there is always room for improvement.

 
NRamaswami The core you tested 2.5 x8 one hmm I dont know what to think about your results. Are windings tight? Do you have to thick a former over the core? You could place a shield around the outside of each coil to help lock the flux into your core material but I would check the windings first of the coils and make sure they did a good job on them. Sloppy windings burn off a lot of power.

   

Offline NRamaswami

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Doug:

I concede the magnetic flux loss issue is there. I had been told by a client that at 90' magnetic flux loss would be very heavy. Seems to be the case also here.  I will not be able to do much this week due to heavy pending work and will get back to testing later.

Gyula: Your insight is so accurate that I'm really stunned. But I'm still unable to understand why the multicore wires perform well only when they are wound two times and do not perform well when the layers are more than 2.

If my understanding of your writing is correct, greater inductance will increase the magnetism but would also consume more amperage and greater impedance would reduce the amperage consumption but would lead to lesser magnetism in the coil. Am I right? Please reply at your conveience.

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Offline Doug1

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NRamaswami I do not recall the name of the effect but it has to do with coil geometry and why coils have a rule of thumb for their dimensions. I work more off conceptual aspects and the effects. When a coil makes a magnetic field and the image you get in your head looks like a bubble around the coil it isn't that clean cut. If you made a coil many times longer then it in the diameter the field isnt going to be that nice round bubble.It will stretch out and close in on the coil near the middle portion. You have greater chance to unfortunately cause the self cancellation of the flux on the outer layers when it is elongated depending on the extent and the volume of the flux. Some people have gone to great lengths to design windings that are supposed to prevent that. Gyula might be able to explain it better. I only have short moments between baking formers on my wood stove.

Offline gyulasun

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Hi NRamaswami,

I think it would be a very good step for you to obtain an L meter and check the inductances of your single wire, bifilar and trifilar coil constructions. I say this because all the coil calculating formulas or online coil calculators are based on normal enamel-insulated copper wires (i.e. 'magnet' wire) and not based on wires covered with thick insulation layers which introduce space or distance (and capacitance) between adjacent wires, either between turns one above the other or between turns next to each other.

I do think that obtaining an L meter is the quickest way to advance your electromagnet constructions because by knowing the actual primary coil inductance in an assembled setup you can calculate the AC input impedance in advance, this makes the input current estimation possible in advance, you could also see the effect of the secondary load on the primary input coils inductance, how the presence of the secondary load would modify the input impedance of the primaries,  this way you also could quickly browse through some electromagnet coils you have left from earlier experiments etc.

When you have a measured primary coil(s) inductance, and you have the DC resistance of the same coil(s) also measured with your Ohm meter, the input Z impedance can be calculated as I showed earlier, I can help you in that.

With the L meter suggestion I do not mean to toss the ball into your field of course but to indicate for you that there is no calculation readily available for arriving at coil inductance (hence impedance) values when using wires with thick insulation, at least I am not aware of such.
Especially with open core coils this becomes more problematic because manufacturers specify permeability data for their soft iron cores when the core has a closed magnetic path (usualy the permeability data is specified for ring cores made from a given soft iron material).
This means for instance that a normal transformer lamination may have say a permeability of 800 in a closed core, no air gap, and using a certain section of this same lamination as an open core its permeability becomes much less and quasi unpredictable. This is where an L meter can help tremendously.

I understand that you do not have many I laminations but if you are going to use iron rods again, then your electromagnets would become 'ill-behaved' again, heat losses and not readily repeatable results would prevail.

So either you obtain more 6 inch long I laminations or you may wish to consider the steel pellet core I referred to already.

A notice to the I laminations: you can place some 6 inch long piece in a single line and then put a second row onto them which would overlap the gaps and so on, of course this would need a sufficient amount of I laminations. Yes they have sharp edges indeed, they need careful handling.

Ferrite cores would function correctly too but they have become a bit expensive during the years. On ebay you can find 8 to 10mm dia ferrite rods with 180 to 200mm length like this offer http://www.ebay.com/itm/16x-Large-Balun-Ferrite-Rods-10x200mm-/201042983709  but you would need more than 16 such rods to fill up the inner volume of a 45-50cm long coil bobbin with 2.5 inch dia and then you would need still twice as many for the other 2 electromagnets.

More on your questions later on.

Gyula

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Offline NRamaswami

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Hi Gyula:

Thanks for the great hints. I will find out an L meter in a shop that sells these items. The problem is with these shops there is No Guarantee No warranty No return No refund for China made goods. And most of them are china made only. Another aspect is I simply do not know how to use them really. I will buy them and learn to use it from some body. These are not usually bought items and usually not available and we need to do shop hunting. While we can buy ebooks online, any product import requires an import export code number and a lot of formalities at the customs end.

We do have enamelled magnet wires, the place where the I cores are available also has these enamelled magnet wires.

I have a problem with your explanations so far.

If my understanding of your post is correct, by using small gauge wires with high resistance, high DC ohms, it is easy for us to build quadfilar coils which have very high AC impedance and also inductance. As the number of wires increases like bifilar, trifilar,quadfilar,pentafilar etc and by using wires with high ohms we will get to a point where the input AC becomes very low but the magnetism created is very high.

Does this not go against the Magnetic field strength = Amperes x number of turns formula. Only when amperes go up the magnetic field strength would go up. Here you are reducing the amperes, number of turns remain the same, but the inductance increases for the same core and same material indicating greater magnetization. It certainly happens any way whether the coil consumes less amperage or more amperage but how come for the same coil it happens is a mystery when the amperage consumed is less.

Also please advise  if my understanding above is right or wrong on using small guage wires. It will take some time for me to buy the I cores, arrange them and put duct tapes around them, buy the L meter etc but you are certainly correct that reading at diffrent times gives different results.. May be it is way the gaps inside the material changes. We have iron powder and we can dump them and pack the pipes but the boys are agaist it as it is usually makes them suffer cuts in hands hands however safe we are in handling them.

I will get the L meter and get back to you but I would be very obliged if you indicate whether we should go in for small wires with high DC resistance or large wires with low DC resistance ( which one has the higher AC impedance and hence inductance when coiled as bifilar or trifilar or quadfilar wire). Please let me know.  Without the L meter I cannot make further experiments, I would be very grateful and obliged if you could clear these theoretical doubts. Thank you so much.

Offline hanon

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Hi all,

This thread has grown a lot. 20 pages in 15 days!!  I post here a little detail from a Buforn patent to get relaxed among so much technical info:





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Offline gyulasun

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Hi NRamaswami,


On the choice of LCR meter types,  I would like to mention that the measuring frequency in the L ranges is to be considered: the closer this frequency to the operating frequency of a coil with core, the more accurate the measurement will be. This is important for coils with low frequency cores like normal laminations.  In your case the operating frequency for the coils is the 50Hz of the mains voltage but most LC meters have 100Hz 120Hz or higher built-in test frequencies. Here is a meter which has 80Hz test frequency in the 200mH and 2H ranges and 26Hz for the 20H range, so this is a good trade-off, although I do not know the price: http://www.tradeindia.com/fp23040/LCR-Meter-KM-954MK-II.html and here is the data sheet: http://www.signalhawk.in/LCR/KM_954MK-II.pdf

There is the LCR-4070 type which has 200Hz test frequency on all the L ranges from 2mH to 20H: http://www.tradeindia.com/fp747683/Digital-LCR-Meter-Model-LCR-4070.html 

Of course there are many other types but perhaps the KM-954 MK-II would serve the purpose


You wrote: 
"I'm still unable to understand why the multicore wires perform well only when they are wound two times and do not perform well when the layers are more than 2." 

I am unsure here, a possible explanation would be that in the first case (when you fill up the gap left between the turns of the 'forward' winding with the turns of the backwards winding if I got you correctly) you eventually have a bifilar coil in series aiding phase connection for the two windings.  While in the second case you do not have gaps between the turns of the first layer winding and you place the second layer onto the top of the first layer and so on. You need to clarify what you mean exactly when you say for the second case: 'they do not perform well'.  What was the number of turns for the two cases, what dia had the bobbins etc


You wrote:

"If my understanding of your writing is correct, greater inductance will increase the magnetism but would also consume more amperage and greater impedance would reduce the amperage consumption but would lead to lesser magnetism in the coil. Am I right?"

No I did not write or mean the second assumption (i.e. consume more current). It is okay that greater inductance (more turns and correct core) would increase magnetism  i.e. insure more flux for an electromagnet but this does not involve consuming more amperage. It is also okay that a greater impedance for a coil (i.e. again more turns and correct core) inherently reduces current input if you stay with the same AC input voltage amplitude (220V in this case) but magnetism would be reduced only in a lesser degree: the explanation comes from the AmperTurns you also mentioned, this means the multiplication of the coil current with the number of coil turns, you increase the number of turns which inreases impedance hence the input current reduces (provided the input voltage stays the same), however their product changes but a little. This is a trade-off game in a sense because inreasing the number of turns inherently increases DC resistance too.

I suggest you to avoid using too thin dia wires which have higher DC resistances versus the thicker dia wires. High DC Ohms increase heat losses and make the coils burn down on the long run.

More on your questions later.

Gyula

Offline dieter

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Wings,
Very interesting old news snippet. Where did you find that?


I have an intuitive believe that there is indeed a possibility to break the law of energy conservation. Call me mad if you want. Free energy is bad for business and businessmen made the rules. J.P. Morgan, David Rockefeller etc., these guys rule trough control of energy, this is true.


Anyway, thinking about permanent magnet motors, there has always been the lack of being able to turn a magnet off in the right moment. But you know what? You can turn an electromagnet off! You can store its magnetism in an electrical charge and turn it off that way. The electrical charge is then useable by the next electromagnet, with few losses, but you already got the work of the last one, eg. done by attraction. So there is a logical gain.


Going out of phase with one primary could achieve a similar effect. It's all about timing. If this were a motor, let the attractor always be ahead of the rotor. This doesn't require more magnetism than  any sticky point, it's just a timing issue, that can be solved with an inductive delay. And an electromagnet becomes permanent when you short circuit it in magnetized condition. So basicly this is a permanent magnet that can be turned off.


The same applies to solid state generators.


Today I tested my generator with a steppermotor controlcard, "smc800", this is for centronics printerport, so I had to reactivate an old laptop.

Unfortunately my prototype has bad dimensions. Only 2.1 ohm in each primary, so I again had to use resistors to make sure not to draw too much current from the SMC800.

Finally, the voltage on the primary was only -.44 to .44 V, so (0.88*0.88)/2.1= 0.368 Watt consumption on each primary, 0.73w in total. The output was rectified and smoothed by a big cap, the cap went up to 25Vdc, when measuring the amps with the digital meter (the one with defective AC measurement), it read 80 DCmA, so that may be 2 Watt output.

The SMC800 was run with up to 1000hz and NRamaswami was right, higher frequency brings better output (well, not radio frequencies of course).

I am not sure if these measurements are all correct and I have to say, the smc800 is using amplitude synthesis that had a sawtheeth by its own, maybe 10khz, that I can clearly hear when I run it with silly speeds like 0.2 hz , amusingly even these frequencies, that are not my sinus amplitude, generate pretty high currents, although I have no idea if these are out of phase in one primary, obviously they are, because as I know, otherwise the output would be cancelled out completely,

I will try to find a better "driver", a steppermotor control card, powered by a pc supply, plus a laptop, just to generate 2 Watts, that's bulky. I'd rather have some smart transistor pcb that runs from a 9volt dc source. I will however build my next prototype with about 17 ohms in every primary, that's much more practical.

Regards

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Offline Farmhand

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Well I've got two almost identical bifilar coils I can use for primaries and another I with 4 windings on it I can use for the secondary, this will allow me to use the primaries two windings in parallel or in series depending on what works better R and L wize and the secondary I can wire up in a few ways for differing resistances and inductances. The cores are insulated steel wires, 10 Gauge.

I can use a dodgy two phase generator to get two phases of DC "lumps" 90 degrees out of phase without diodes I think, if I wire it up correctly, or I can just use diodes.
Of course no matter what the result or how i present it, won't make any difference to anything anyone thinks. So I wonder why I would show anything unless it was OU.
Would there be any point to showing the experiment if looks like it is OU but when measured up correctly it isn't ?

Anyway I'm interested to see what happens so I'm going to do it even though i am in the process of trying to get a result from a magnet switching setup.

Cheers


Offline NRamaswami

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Hi Gyula:

Many thanks for your insightful reply. Hectic work day and week this week and I will post briefly.

1. The 3 core coil was the insulated 3 core cable. Whichever way we wind ( you suggested two ways) the efficiency drops after one forward and one backward. In fact we find that when more than 3 wires are wound as trifilar or quadfilar, the best efficiency is achieved only in two layer coils. After that impedance goes up so much.

2. Am I right in the understanding that a low gauge wire with high DC Resistance will also have very high AC impedance. In that case a multifilar low gauge wire will not simply allow current to pass through if we have number of layers or would allow very little current to pass through though it will suffer a lot of heat and may even burn out due to heat. Still it will produce magnetism in the core. Am I right in the understanding. But such wires must be avoided to prevent them from burning out. Is this correct..

3. Even with 4 sq mm thick wires we have heat issues. Of course all my wires todate are insulated commercial wires not enamel coated coils.

4. So my understanding from your posts is that the rules or equations of Electromagnetism in books would not apply to the following situations.

a. Where the wires are insulated.

b. Where there is a gap between the wires.

c. Where the two or more core wires come in thick insulated cables (which further incrase their capacitance and hence consume more amperage.. Am I right here in this assumption)..

..I'm learniing a lot here. Thank you so much. I'm very obliged and grateful.

Offline NRamaswami

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Hi Gyula:

By the way I have no bobbins. I use plastic tubes which are 2.5 inch or 4 inch dia and 30 cm to 50 cm in length for winding the wires. Each one of them is packed with softiron rods. 2.5 inch takes about 60 of 6mm dia soft iron rods while 4 inches one take a lot more. Soft iron rods are about 43 cm long. or 30 cm long. All cores are either soft iron or made up of iron powder which is packed in to the tubes with plastic caps on both sides. 99% of the time we do not use iron powder. All winding is by hand so far. No machine winding and no enamelled wire so far.

 

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