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Author Topic: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE  (Read 1626154 times)

Offline ALVARO_CS

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Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #660 on: February 16, 2014, 05:57:49 PM »
hi Hanon

I do not know how to measure the amperage of a current in an open loop. (no load)
Only know to put the ammeter in series with one of the two output wires when load is present closing the circuit. Also in series (inserted between one wire) before the device, to see input amperage. (eg. before a motor or a lamp)
IMHO, if the whole circuit is open at the end, (no load) no current is circulating.
The primary is closed: two leads live-return
The secondary is open: two leads no load
If the two secondary leads (in-out) were connected to the ammeter, it was shorted (closing the circuit) as has been stated in a previous post.

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Offline NRamaswami

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Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #661 on: February 16, 2014, 06:08:58 PM »
Alvaro_CS:

Output wires were not connected to each other. They were connected to the load bulbs but because the voltmeter showed very high voltage, we did not switch on the lamps. It is at that point the ammeter showed 20 amps. Normally the Ammeter does not show any amps when no light is burning or even when two 200 watts lights are burning. Ammeter starts showing amperage only when 3x 200 watts lamps are burning and that is only around 1.5 amps. Although the lights are rated at 200 watts they consume less than 200 watts to light up.

When I said the secondaries were kept open I essentially indicated that the secondaries had no load on them and were open circuit. I apologize for any miscommununication on my part and please understand that neither is English my first language nor is this subject my basic expertise area and I readilly acknowledge that I do not know much..Forgive me for any mistakes in communication. Please..

Offline ALVARO_CS

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Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #662 on: February 16, 2014, 06:34:06 PM »
@NRamaswami

When there is such a good will as yours, no mistake can make an offense, so. . no apology nor forgiveness needed from both sides.

Anyway, thanks for the clarification

English is neither my mother language

regards

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #662 on: February 16, 2014, 06:34:06 PM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #663 on: February 16, 2014, 07:03:39 PM »
Hi NRamaswami,

You wrote:

Quote
Output wires were not connected to each other. They were connected to the load bulbs but because the voltmeter showed very high voltage, we did not switch on the lamps. It is at that point the ammeter showed 20 amps.

What you describe above is an impossible situation. If the load lamps were switched off, then there is no way the ammeter showed the 20 Amper current. And if it showed, then you somehow had a closed circuit in the secondary you were not aware of, please try to ponder on this. 
I am not saying you do some miscommunication here but you yourself should realize that it is impossible to have an open circuit at the output and still state the 20A current and state an output power with it.
It is okay if you calculated the current by linear interpolation (by mathematically) as you described it last night deducing the numbers from the input current and voltage hence input power but then it is not a measured power but a calculated one.


You also wrote:

Quote

Normally the Ammeter does not show any amps when no light is burning or even when two 200 watts lights are burning. Ammeter starts showing amperage only when 3x 200 watts lamps are burning and that is only around 1.5 amps. Although the lights are rated at 200 watts they consume less than 200 watts to light up.


I put in bold your first sentence above: the first part of your sentence is correct till the word or but the second part is not! When two 200 watts bulbs were burning the ammeter should have already shown a certain current but not zero! Maybe the ammeter was not connected correctly to measure the output current or it was not a dependable instrument? 
Normaly to get the load current at the output, you connect the ammeter in series with the bulbs or in series with the group of the bulbs and the series combination of the meter and the bulb(s) are connected across the output. Was this done so, can you recall?

Well, earlier you mentioned you had an analog meter and it burnt out. Before it burnt out, it must have been abused already because if it was correctly connected in series with the bulbs,  then it should have measured half an amp, one amp etc, any amps higher than zero, ok?

By the way, English is my second language.  I hope you understand it and then you could try to explain this output "mistery".  No problem that you are not an Electrical Engineer but you surely feel that when the bulbs were unconnected, then the 20A current had no way to flow in the secondary coil.

And I am trying to help with these posts and I hope you understand now how the output power is to be measured in the simplest way when you have an AC voltmeter and an AC ampmeter, hooked up at both the input side and the at the output side.  Ammeters always inserted in series with the input side and/or with the output side, this is the only way to get info on the input current draw and on the load current drawn by the bulbs at the output side.
 IF something is not clear in this respect, please ask, and I can draw a simple sketch to show a measuring setup, basically it would reflect what I wrote so far.

Regards,  Gyula

Offline forest

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Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #664 on: February 16, 2014, 07:18:47 PM »
I see only one danger , (not real one but in interpretation) - if that 20Amps are at low voltage or in other words if output is mixed 630V low amps and some lower voltage 20 amps. Could it be ? Sorry, English is also not my primary language and I'm not electrical guy also...

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #664 on: February 16, 2014, 07:18:47 PM »
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Offline NRamaswami

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Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #665 on: February 16, 2014, 07:36:35 PM »
Gyula:

You are correct in all your statements. The Analog Ammeter can be relied on only after 1 Amps. It oscillates a bit before it indicating the current when lamps are burning. But I have no way of knowing what amps it is.

I did not calculate the Amps output. The Ammeter jumped up to 20 amps. It does not do that when the voltage is even at 250 and at no load condition in the secondary.

I have no knowledge on calculation methods for this is not my domain. I perfectly understand your posts and am also eager that the correct report should be given. This is why I have given all the information as we have without hesitation. And I have found that many posters were going wrong. As one of the friends put it, he spent six weeks last year without being able to replicate Figuera. We kind of figuered out a way but we are actually afraid to go forward due to the high voltages and amperages that are shown.

About Voltage: Amperage calculations, I find that if we get 240 volts in the secondary at no load, when we light the lamps we can go up to 1.8 Amps and 100 volts. So it is about 180 watts of output usable output power there.

But when we go to 250 volts at no load the usable output increases to 120 volts and 2 amps. For a 10 volt difference at no load condition the usable output increases by 60 watts. So at 630 volts at no load assuming that there is no amps present, the usable load would go up significantly. It is possible there was a short circuit inside the ammeter. But I have no way of knowing or interpreting these things and my knowledge is not to that level.

Regarding why I'm afraid of this voltage, this comes at 50 Hz frequency. Electricity at low frequency is deadly. This is why we have people getting killed under high voltage lines. In Tesla coil electricity is given at very high frequency. Electricity above 20 Khz is supposed not to kill but I do not know.

In a way I'm also irritated that we are not able to go forward and so shared the information freely.

Regarding the query of Forest, Whether it is low voltage or high voltage current of more than 2 amps can kill people. At 20 amps I'm told by an Electrical Engineer that it can even cause human blood to boil..Can I take risks here? With my kind of knowledge? So we have kept quiet and did not take it forward. Physiotherapists give electrical stimulations at milliamps only for this reason.

But it is a very simple device. Competent people can easily replicate my work and then build the second step down transformer.

Problem is that the iron rods carry the same current as eddy current and at the same frequency.  I'm not satisfied with our knowledge or capacity to handle this kind of voltage and amperage combinations and this is why we have not moved forward. But we will try this week or next week and post to all. I will share the results freely. No problem.
 

Offline ALVARO_CS

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Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #666 on: February 16, 2014, 08:12:09 PM »
NRamaswami

The way I see the originality of your setup, is that no one here, as far as I know, has tried with a secondary (induced) under the primary (inductor), but just an induced coil central between the two inductors.
I`ll try this next week but at a lower scale. Much to wind.
Cheers

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #666 on: February 16, 2014, 08:12:09 PM »
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Offline NRamaswami

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Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #667 on: February 16, 2014, 08:34:18 PM »
Actually the original designs are Figuera designs. He clearly describes in one line for using a secondary under the primary to get industrial scale currents. Normally in patent applications the inventors will avoid providing full and particular descriptions and best mode of carrying out the invention and the mode of invention disclosed by Figuera is the weakest one of carrying out his invention. What we did was to understand the purpose of rotary switch and resistor set up and in deleting that and replacing it with Alternating current and making the device an extremely simple one without any electriconics to make it easy to replicate. As I'm a Patent Attorney, I was able to spot this.. Earlier descriptions were completely wrong with same poles facing each other which is totally contrary to the teachings of Figuera..

All electrical turbines today use the force of magnetic repulsion. This results in rotation of the core. Then as the core rotates slowly, to make rotate faster we need mechanical energy which is supplied through mechanical means. This conversion process results in loss. Figuera advocated a different approach altogether to use the combined forces of magnetic repulsion and magnetic attraction and use them all and avoid the mechanical means to generate a much larger output than the input.

This is the theory that has been ignored. But it is certainly a valid theory.  Possibly all of you have focused only on the drawings and have not studied the patent description of the original and missed the line. Since the original Figuera device we made did not work, I worked it out and did not want to lose the power that can be taken out of the primary. We have actually wound Coils outside the primary also in some experiments but there was not much of difference. When you have a lot of excess voltage output and amperage waiting to be tapped, why create additional voltage and further complicate the issue was the thought and we avoided it all.

Please take care while doing the experiments as these are very high voltage and high amperage ones. You are not going to see any major excess output until you cross the 450 or 500 volts in the secondary I think but this is a guess.

Offline hanon

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Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #668 on: February 16, 2014, 10:08:27 PM »
Hi all,

Here I attach an interview to Clemente Figuera with some interesting insights. This is direct testimony from Figuera himself. It is a good historical review of his findings. It appeared in a local newspaper in 1902. Enjoy it !!!

INTERVIEW TO CLEMENTE
FIGUERA 1902
Mr. Clemente Figuera. - The name of the
conscientious and intelligent engineer,
Inspector of mountains in Canary, is now
universally known, thanks to the news
published by the press about the generator
of his invention for producing far-reaching
consequences, because it constitutes a
valuable element in modern mechanics,
solving problems which will influence
powerfully in most industries.
The meritable engineer states in a recently
published work. - "With persistent effort
nature keeps its secrets, but man´s
intelligence, the most precious gift due to
the divine artist, author of all creation,
allows that slowly and at the cost of
thousands studies and works, the human
race realize that God's work is more perfect
and harmonious than it looks at first sight.
There was no need to create a agent for
each kind of phenomenon, nor varying
forces to produce the multiple motions, nor
so many substances as varieties of bodies
are present to our senses; In doing so, it
was proceeding worthy of a least wise and
powerful creator that that, with a single
matter and a single impulse given to an
atom, started in vibration all cosmic matter,
according to a law from which the others
are natural and logical consequences”
And later he adds: "The twentieth century
has given us the mercy of discovering its
program in general lines. It will stop using
the hackneyed system of transformations,
and it will take the agents where the nature
has them stored. To produce heat, light or
electricity, it will rely on the suitable
vibratory motion because nature´s
available storages are renewed constantly
and have no end ever. For the next
generation, the steam engines will be an
antique, and the blackness of coal, will be
replaced by the pulchritude of electricity, in
factories and workshops, in ocean liners, in
railways and in our homes”
So says Mr. Figueras, who is consistent
with his scientific creed, has based his
significant invention on harnessing the
vibrations of the ether, building a device,
that he names as Generator Figueras, with
the power required to run a motor, as well
as powering itself, developing a force of
twenty horse power. Should be noted that
the produced energy can be applied to all
kinds of industries and its cost is zero,
because nothing is spent to obtain it. All
parts have been built separately in various
workshops under the management of the
inventor, who has shown the generator
running in his home in the city of Las
Palmas.
The inventor holds that his generator will
solve a portion of problems, including those
which are derived from navigation, because
a great power can be carried in a very
small space, stating that the secret of his
invention resembles the egg of Columbus.
With the generator it may be obtained the
voltage and amperage required, as direct
or alternate currents, producing light,
driving force, heat and all the effects of the
electricity. It is said that shortly Mr. Figuera
will depart to Paris, to constitute a union in
charge of the exploitation of his invention.
Due to the gallantry of our good friend, the
distinguished photographer of Las Palmas
Mr. Luis Ojeda, we thank for making public
to our readers a portrait of Mr. Clemente
Figueras, to whom we congratulate on his
invention, making fervent hopes to produce
the expected beneficial results, for the
benefit of mankind, for the sake of science
and honor of our country, proud to count
him among the number of its illustrious
sons.


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #668 on: February 16, 2014, 10:08:27 PM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #669 on: February 16, 2014, 11:53:09 PM »
Hi NRamaswami,

I would like to show you an ebay link where an analog AC ampermeter is offered, maybe you like it:

http://www.ebay.in/itm/Class-2-5-Accuracy-AC-30A-Analogue-Ampere-Panel-Meter-/251452933597?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_203&hash=item3a8bc345dd   

And I found this transformer manufacturer based in Tamil Nadu, maybe not so far from you, and maybe, just maybe they have a junkyard where burnt out tranformers are stored, probably waiting for recycling or rebuilding, and I thought you would approach them for a favor... 
this is their site: http://www.transformersindia.com/ 

Greetings,  Gyula

Offline NRamaswami

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Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #670 on: February 17, 2014, 12:06:14 AM »
Gyula:

Thanks for the info.

The days when we needed transformers to be built for us are gone. We now have the knowledge to build transformers of fixed output type ourselves. But we still do not know how to build a variac.

The transformer of the step down type that I would would be very costly to purchase. Rather I would buy insulated copper or aluminium wires that can carry 100 to 150 amps and then wind down as the secondary in the second coil or wind it up as a second module secondary which is of a step down type... But that is not the problem.

Problem is lot of voltage in the first module. Iron rods also carry electricity when magnetised. So we need to make the device one without any holes. and then cover the ends with plastic caps. Then we need to cover the wires again with plastic sheets. It is only then that I can test it again to check whether the system would work without the air gaps. I think it would.

Once that is cleared, then I need to measure the voltage and then decide on the number of turns and hand wide a large wire as the step down thing and check that the output voltage is acceptable and can be given to load. Then we will give it to the load.

I would build one module as step up and another module as step down ones so both of them get the benefit of magnetic attraction and do not work as normal transformers.

A normal transformer if I want to order can be ordered over the phone but we would end up paying a lot of money. This way we know what we have done and what exactly is needed and can unwind or make additional windings..

Thanks for your support and kind thoughts..

Regards,

Ramaswami

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #670 on: February 17, 2014, 12:06:14 AM »
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Offline NRamaswami

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Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #671 on: February 17, 2014, 12:09:58 AM »
Hi Gyula:

You see the picture of the Ammeter at the bottom. Up to 5 amps I would not know what is the amperage. I have better ones than this but they are little more costly. I can order what is needed over the phone. I know a lot of people. I'm a Patent  and Trademark Attorney and I have 1200 clients with 26 years of experience. So I can order over phone and it will come to me. Thanks for the support.

Offline Newton II

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Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #672 on: February 17, 2014, 04:35:58 AM »

@NRS


When bulbs are switched OFF, ammeter cannot show any reading if it is connected in series with bulbs.

With your description we have to conclude that you have connected the ammeter directly to the output terminals. By doing so you have shorted the output terminals through ammeter.  An ammeter should always be connected in series with load.  When you connect the ammeter to the terminals without load, it becomes parallel to the terminals and output will be shorted through ammeter. 

So, the current 20 Amps which your ammeter is showing is short circuit current which may not be the current produced by your device.  Because when you make a short ciruit,  the entire current flowing in street pole lines ( connection from electricity board) may come to your device depending on the type and configuration of device if you are drawing input power from city power supply.

When I was studying in schools,  I used to conduct such 'short ciruit experiments' unknowingly, drawing huge current from street power supply lines to my house causing blowing of fuse, damaging house wiring, burning of sockets etc.  which is a very dangerous thing to do.  (somewhere you have mentioned that you have blown off one ammeter).

Just a guess.

Offline SolarLab

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Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #673 on: February 17, 2014, 04:41:26 AM »
Hi Fellows,

Great topic and some extremely interesting discussions and information.

One brief observation/comment: "Also" consider Figuera used a commutator yielding Staircase Step Functions to drive the induction coils. These "STEPS" likely contained very steep rise and fall times especially considering the only capacitance found in his circuits appear to be the inductor coil internal winding capacitance. Note that many OU (COP > 1) applications involve disruptive transitions [spark gaps or other fast dV/dt apparatus]. Therefore this feature might be worth keeping in mind as you pursue the Back EMF mitigation aspects.

Also, there's a very talented and excellent Lecturer named Michel van Biezen (Lectures On Line) who has a Youtube channel that is probably well worth taking the time to review and refresh your Electricity and Magnetism recollection. The following six lectures may be of great interest:

Physics - Electromagnetic Induction: Faraday's Law (4 total)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ejRJM-kCyWQ&list=PLX2gX-ftPVXU_CiWsaFpXh9O3k90L7jTv
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i80TIzF9D88&list=PLX2gX-ftPVXU_CiWsaFpXh9O3k90L7jTv
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHzpPyxK6a8&list=PLX2gX-ftPVXU_CiWsaFpXh9O3k90L7jTv
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=atbioBvN8hE&list=PLX2gX-ftPVXU_CiWsaFpXh9O3k90L7jTv

and; Physics - Electromagnetic Induction: Faraday's Law and Lenz Law (2 total)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-aoGz5X_j0&list=PLX2gX-ftPVXU_CiWsaFpXh9O3k90L7jTv
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MUcQqHsQjqg&list=PLX2gX-ftPVXU_CiWsaFpXh9O3k90L7jTv

Or, subscribe as this fellow is "as good as they get" and his channel is a great engineering/physics/chemistry/etc. reference source.

I can appreciate that some in this blog have a reservation regarding the "formal" sciences but hey, every bit of help is appreciated - we're all in this together!

Have a productive week...

Offline Marsing

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Re: Re-Inventing The Wheel-Part1-Clemente_Figuera-THE INFINITE ENERGY MACHINE
« Reply #674 on: February 17, 2014, 07:21:52 AM »

hi..  all

NRamaswami stated some where ( i forgot ) that he was helped by some electrical engineer,
so pre-assumed that there was no wrong measurement, maybe only miss communication.
 
however, any sketch/drawing "how to use ampmeter and voltmeter" from gyulasun or others should be good to posted, i agree with what you said gyulasun about measurement. i have ever seen from webpage someone measure amperage by connecting ampmeter to output directly.

i guess, only with sketch/drawing will reduce miss communication, as Alvaro_CS (thanks for drawing) who have posted "drawing" help us to look it as start point. those all will save much time from reading and arguing everything. and also, English is not my daily language, sorry for that.

...

 

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